Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa

[TechTalk]

It's not up to you to decide whose beliefs are valid.  That's what the Chinese Communist Party is doing right now in Hong Kong, shutting up and arresting those who disagree with the party using police powers to decide whose political views will be allowed to be expressed.  Your arguments are anti-democratic and anti-constitutional. They're in direct opposition to the First Amendment.

You somehow equate my criticism and presenting facts to counter falsehoods with deciding "whose beliefs are valid"; the "Chinese Communist Party"; "shutting up and arresting those who disagree"; and "using police powers to decide whose political views will be allowed to be expressed".

Unlike you, I won't say that "Your arguments are anti-democratic and anti-constitutional." or that "They're in direct opposition to the First Amendment."

I'll just politely say that they're a bizarre attempt to counter arguments from me that you don't happen to like or may find uncomfortable as you continue to ridiculously minimize a violent invasion of the nation's Capitol while they were conducting one of the most important acts they perform—finalizing the election of a President of the United States.

[Alan Klein]

Perhaps read my post again?

I made no comment other than to express a concern that Pelosi and Schumer need to be sure of where there going before screaming 'impeachment'. The consequences of being wrong a second time will just play into the hands of Trump who has laid the ground for a rear guard movement whose sole purpose is and will be to undermine the incoming administration.

This country has more concerns than impeaching a president who's leaving in a couple of weeks.  There were another approximately 800,000 people unemployed for the first time last week.  More people lost their jobs as well during last month than expected.  The country is broke.  Half the budget is deficit spending from printing and borrowing.  I'm expecting a call any day from the Treasurer of the United States asking if he could borrow my credit cards.  Pelosi should be thinking about how she's going to help the country not how she's going to help the Democrat Party. 

[Alan Klein]

You somehow equate my criticism and presenting facts to counter falsehoods with deciding "whose beliefs are valid"; the "Chinese Communist Party"; "shutting up and arresting those who disagree"; and "using police powers to decide whose political views will be allowed to be expressed".

Unlike you, I won't say that "Your arguments are anti-democratic and anti-constitutional." or that "They're in direct opposition to the First Amendment."

I'll just politely say that they're a bizarre attempt to counter arguments from me that you don't happen to like or may find uncomfortable as you continue to ridiculously minimize a violent invasion of the nation's Capitol while they were conducting one of the most important acts they perform—finalizing the election of a President of the United States.

I didn;t minimize the invasion.  That was illegal.  But you were effectively saying that the demonstration was illegal.  It wasn't.  They had a right to object to the Congress accepting the elector's votes.  That's why Congress was meeting. 

The public is supposed to make their feelings known and petition the government.  Your claim it appeared to me was that they were doing an illegal act.  Maybe I interpreted your views incorrectly.  If so, certainly I would want you to clarify them.  So let me ask the question. Isn't the public allowed to legally and non-violently demonstrate and petition Congress to press for a decision rejecting Biden at the behest of the sitting president of the United States?

[Alan Klein]

And a corollary question.  Isn't a sitting president allowed to ask the public to support him by demonstrating and petitioning for him to Congress to get his opponent not selected by Congress? 

[chez]

Demonstrators aren't enemies of the United States.  In any case, the Pentagon offered the Capitol Police help before the march.  They refused.  Your ability to block out information from your mind will never cease to amaze me.

So that's what you call the dispicable actions that took place on Wednesday, a demonstration. Looked more like a coup attempt from my TV.

[chez]

This country has more concerns than impeaching a president who's leaving in a couple of weeks.  There were another approximately 800,000 people unemployed for the first time last week.  More people lost their jobs as well during last month than expected.  The country is broke.  Half the budget is deficit spending from printing and borrowing.  I'm expecting a call any day from the Treasurer of the United States asking if he could borrow my credit cards.  Pelosi should be thinking about how she's going to help the country not how she's going to help the Democrat Party.

Is that making America great again?

[jeremyrh]

Half the budget is deficit spending from printing and borrowing.  I'm expecting a call any day from the Treasurer of the United States asking if he could borrow my credit cards. 

You could use your credit card to buy a book that explains to you how the money supply actually works. You mention this a lot so it could be a worthwhile investment.  Just to pique your interest I'll let you in on a secret - Uncle Sam doesn't need your money, he can print his own!

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/27/opinion/republicans-deficits-coronavirus.html

[Robert Roaldi]

The tables are turning already? Trump's base is angry, it seems.  https://www.politico.com/news/2021/01/08/maga-internet-turns-on-trump-456490.

One line in the article struck me as odd, “People were willing to die for this man and he just threw them all under the bus. That’s the only thing that’s shameful about the events of the past 36 hours,” Nick Fuentes, the host of the America First podcast and the unofficial leader of the white nationalist Groyper Army".

Were people really willing to die for Trump? I mean, really? I'm having a hard time swallowing that one. In any case, his followers would have to be pretty dim to expect to-the-wall loyalty from him. That's just not in the cards. If there is one thing he had been consistent at, it's turning on people.

[jeremyrh]

I didn;t minimize the invasion.  That was illegal.  But you were effectively saying that the demonstration was illegal.  It wasn't.  They had a right to object to the Congress accepting the elector's votes.  That's why Congress was meeting. 

The public is supposed to make their feelings known and petition the government.  Your claim it appeared to me was that they were doing an illegal act.  Maybe I interpreted your views incorrectly.  If so, certainly I would want you to clarify them.  So let me ask the question. Isn't the public allowed to legally and non-violently demonstrate and petition Congress to press for a decision rejecting Biden at the behest of the sitting president of the United States?

One benefit of reading Alan's posts - when you're at home and watching the news on TV, and your wife says "what kind of idiot believes anything Trump says?", you can give her a description.

[TechTalk]

I didn;t [didn't] minimize the invasion.

You have... repeatedly. Grossly minimized it and mischaracterized it.

That was illegal.

You think?

But you were effectively saying that the demonstration was illegal.

Never have thought it. Never have said it—not even "effectively".

Your claim it appeared to me was that they were doing an illegal act.

What claim? The one that exists in your imagination? Nowhere have I made a claim that a "demonstration" was an illegal act or ever had that thought.

Maybe I interpreted your views incorrectly.

You think? I'd say that's highly likely.

If so, certainly I would want you to clarify them.

You may want me to clarify them for you, but there is no need for it. I have nothing to clarify. I may want you to comprehend what you read, preferably in a rational way, but I'm not holding out any hope of it.

[TechTalk]

demonstrating and petitioning for him to Congress to get his opponent not selected by Congress?

That is NOT what Congress was in session to accomplish. They were NOT there to select a president. They weren't there to elect a president either.

They were there to count and finalize the votes of those who had already made that selection thru their vote as mandated by the Constitution. They were doing just that when a group of Trump supporters violently invaded the Capitol and terrorized them into halting the completion of their Constitutional duty temporarily.

[TechTalk]

I answered this quote in an earlier post. Look it up.  What they did isn't sedition.

You answered nothing because you don't understand the difference between treason, sedition, and insurrection.

There was no intent to overthrow the US government or seize property by force.

No intent to "seize property by force"? For people with no intent to seize property by force, they did a pretty good job of it. Have you had an eye exam lately?

They were trespassing

Trespassing? Is that a charge you would be satisfied with if a group of people entered your house by smashing out windows, ransacked the place, and made you flee for safety? Your minimizing of what happened is way beyond ridiculous and absurd!

and fighting with guards.

and murdering a police officer... and terrorizing members of Congress... and stealing their private papers and property... and disrupting them from carrying out their constitutional obligations... and ransacking... and stealing property of the Capitol... and engaging in mayhem and riot... and damaging the Capitol building and property. Your minimizing of the riot inside our Capitol leaves out quite a lot by design.

[TechTalk]

I couldn't imagine Attorney General Merrick Garland charging these people with sedition.

Given your willful blindness to what actually occurred, I'm not surprised. The nation's Capitol was violently invaded by domestic terrorists with the intent of disrupting, delaying, or preventing one of the most important constitutional obligations that Congress is given.

But maybe they'll do it for political points.

What individuals will be charged with will depend on the evidence collected and presented. It will be done based on the law and likelihood of conviction by a jury. Whatever happens, you will view it thru an extremely narrow ideological lens based on little real understanding of the law or the criminal actions leading to charges.

After all they charged Trump with treason and colluding with the Russians.

One of your favorite songs—inserted at regular intervals for effect and background music.

The Democrats would stoop to anything to help them politically.

Your worldview which provides the crayons that color everything you read or hear.

[PeterAit]

Poor Josh Hawley lost his book deal.

Simon & Schuster Cancels Plans for Senator Hawley’s Book

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/01/07/books/simon-schuster-josh-hawley-book.html

And Lehigh University has revoked his honorary degree. Which they gave to him for being the commencement speaker some 30 years ago. Donald Trump. the great orator.

[TechTalk]

To provide some momentary respite from argument, you might enjoy a moment of musical parody.

Randy Rainbow's musical parody - Sedition!...

https://www.youtube.com/SEDITION! - A Randy Rainbow Parody

[Chris Kern]

I couldn't imagine Attorney General Merrick Garland charging these people with sedition.

Nor can I.  Even if eventually there are federal prosecutions, seditious conspiracy strikes me as an improbable charge.  More likely, the riot at the Capitol will first be prosecuted locally in the District of Columbia for substantive crimes against property and persons, including felony murder based at least on the deaths of the two individuals who died violently, as well as inciting those crimes.

(By the way, Merrick Garland, the designated attorney general, will not be "charging these people."  In a normal national administration, at least since the Watergate era, the attorney general rarely is even consulted regarding individual criminal prosecutions.)

[TechTalk]

Nor can I.  Even if eventually there are federal prosecutions, seditious conspiracy strikes me as an improbable charge.  More likely, the riot at the Capitol will first be prosecuted locally in the District of Columbia for substantive crimes against property and persons, including felony murder based at least on the deaths of the two individuals who died violently, as well as inciting those crimes.

Although it may be possible that there are a select few that could be charged with it, seditious conspiracy would be a much more difficult case to prosecute, if for no other reason, the conspiracy element. However, there is a laundry list of other federal charges that would be possible including insurrection, riot, obstruction, and domestic terrorism offenses. It all depends on the individual being charged and the available evidence of intent and commission.

The Justice Department announced today that they are investigating residents of the Western District of Tennessee for potential federal crimes at the U.S. Capitol including: 18 United States Code section 231 – Civil Disorder; 18 United States Code section 2101 – The Federal Riot Act; 18 United States Code section 1361 – Damage to Federal Property; and 18 United States Code section 2383 – Rebellion or Insurrection.

https://www.justice.gov/usao-wdtn/pr/us-attorney-dunavant-announces-federal-authorities-are-investigating-any-potential-Violations of Federal Law

[John Camp]

An interesting point made by a Lincoln Project leader on CNN. If the House impeaches Trump, he could actually be tried by the NEXT Senate. Just because he leaves office doesn't mean that he can't be tried, and if convicted, he would be barred from ever holding another federal office. Something worth doing, IMHO.

[Peter McLennan]

Something worth doing, IMHO.

Absolutely.  And not just because it would prevent him from running again.  It's worth doing to prove to Americans and the rest of the world that America is really, actually a place governed by law and order and that NOBODY is above the law.

Not even a two-bit carnival barker with orange makeup.

[Robert Roaldi]

A video (not great production value imo) about how news photographers were attacked during what happened at the Capitol, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4TVo8N6m8zQ.

And I hate to harp on this trivial fact, but whenever these crowds gather they always bring confederate flags. Give me a break.