Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

If you are in a lockdown, you are not going anywhere, so you are unlikely to be wearing a mask.

That would be curfew, not lockdown.

It doesn't surprise me in the least. I doubt there is very much reliable data about mask usage in the real world. For example, does anyone know the percentage of people who wear masks in jurisdictions with a mask mandate and the percentage of people who wear masks in jurisdictions without a mask mandate?

I have not been in the States during the pandemic, so can't comment on that, except that my daughter, in her capacity as a gym personal trainer in Miami,  has to wear them (and her class) during a very, very strenuous hour of exercise.

But here, in Belgrade, I would say, based on personal observation, that 90+% of people have been wearing them where required, and many where it is not required (e.g., outside). And yet, there is a spike in recent days.

[faberryman]

The point being, as posted in the screenshot above, that measures usually hailed as helpful (lockdowns, etc.), are not that much. The point is also relevant for international comparison. When someone says "Hey, just look at this or that country success vs. the US" (usually some Asian), worth bearing in mind the difference in obesity. The US is paying the price for its original sin, that is obesity epidemic.

So if Americans are more at risk because of obesity, it seems like Americans should be extra careful, so increase lockdowns and mask mandates and hand washing and social distancing and only gathering in small groups, etc.

[faberryman]

That would be curfew, not lockdown.

Not really. A curfew only regulates the hours when one can be out and about. A lockdown usually requires you to shelter in place at all times, unless there are exceptions for essential services, like buying food or going to the doctor.

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

So if Americans are more at risk because of obesity, it seems like Americans should be extra careful, so increase lockdowns and mask mandates and hand washing and social distancing and only gathering in small groups, etc.

That would be a smart personal choice if you are an obese American, or have any other comorbidity, or compromised immune system. What I am against is the government imposing it on everyone.

I have never been against masks as long as they are personal choice. Or stay-at-home, etc.

For lockdowns and curfews to work, they have to be TOTAL for two weeks. No 100s of thousands Amazon workers sending you all kind of goodies your way while you are "unselfishly" staying at home for the benefit of others. No truck drivers delivering food and supplies. No Walmarts or supermarkets open. No internet, TV, or the media unless they could be delivered from home. Nada. Just a bunch of hazmat medics taking sick people to hospitals. That would work. In China, perhaps. Or North Korea.

[jeremyrh]

For lockdowns and curfews to work, they have to be TOTAL for two weeks. No 100s of thousands Amazon workers sending you all kind of goodies your way while you are "unselfishly" staying at home for the benefit of others. No truck drivers delivering food and supplies. No Walmarts or supermarkets open. No internet, TV, or the media unless they could be delivered from home. Nada. Just a bunch of hazmat medics taking sick people to hospitals. That would work. In China, perhaps. Or North Korea.

Haha yes - in the UK lockdown means rich people staying at home while poor people bring them things!!

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

Not really. A curfew only regulates the hours when one can be out and about. A lockdown usually requires you to shelter in place all the time, unless there are exceptions for essential services.

Than we have a reverse definition/understanding of both terms. Not that important anyway. We used to have an 84-hour curfew ("police hour" in Serbian) with no going out whatsoever, unless under very strictly defined circumstances. For me, here, a lockdown is what we have currently: everything closes at 6pm.

[TechTalk]

It’s also worth noting that the Rep observers identified 160k votes they consider suspect.

Not really noteworthy in the least. The Anti-democracy Party's (formerly known as the Republican Party) empty assertions regarding massive election fraud might be considered some combination of both tragic and comedic, but not noteworthy.

[Alan Klein]

I think it’s instructive to look at the graphs of infection, hospitalisation and death relative to dates of lockdown, even considering that the “lockdown” in the UK and US are pretty mild compared with a lot of Europe and especially compared with Wuhan. The effect is pretty clear.

Comparing the West to Asians, especially China which has a dictatorial government, is a fruitless exercise.  China throws people in jail for not following rules. The people have been kowtowing for decades, centuries if you include the Emperors before the Communists.  Other Asian like the Thais and Vietnamese are similar.  They live in very hierarchical societies where the government has a lot of sways. Brits, Americans, Australians, Germans, can only take autocrats so long.  Then they revolt and do their thing.

[Alan Klein]

That would be curfew, not lockdown.

I have not been in the States during the pandemic, so can't comment on that, except that my daughter, in her capacity as a gym personal trainer in Miami,  has to wear them (and her class) during a very, very strenuous hour of exercise.

But here, in Belgrade, I would say, based on personal observation, that 90+% of people have been wearing them where required, and many where it is not required (e.g., outside). And yet, there is a spike in recent days.

Annual flu and common cold rates also go up in the winter because we spend more time indoors.  Interestingly, since the COvid started, my wife and I haven't a one cold between us, probably due to isolation.  What's been the experience of members here regarding common colds?   I suspect they've gone down everywhere too.

[TechTalk]

My advice: just ignore the Jerk-In-Chief!

You mean this guy?

I don't think you want me to get on the topic of politics since you couldn't handle that.

You couldn't handle it; don't be a masochist!

You're right to just ignore him. He turned out to be all bluff and bluster. What a disappointment. I was hoping to see some real political debating skills, but it was just hollow boasts and swagger.

[TechTalk]

Brits, Americans, Australians, Germans, can only take autocrats so long.  Then they revolt and do their thing.

As shown in the most recent U.S. presidential election.

[Alan Klein]

That would be a smart personal choice if you are an obese American, or have any other comorbidity, or compromised immune system. What I am against is the government imposing it on everyone.

I have never been against masks as long as they are personal choice. Or stay-at-home, etc.

For lockdowns and curfews to work, they have to be TOTAL for two weeks. No 100s of thousands Amazon workers sending you all kind of goodies your way while you are "unselfishly" staying at home for the benefit of others. No truck drivers delivering food and supplies. No Walmarts or supermarkets open. No internet, TV, or the media unless they could be delivered from home. Nada. Just a bunch of hazmat medics taking sick people to hospitals. That would work. In China, perhaps. Or North Korea.

I fall in that age and comorbidity category and protect myself pretty well.  Not perfectly.  Everyone else can make their choice as well.  If they need to go to work, let them go.  I'm retired but understand they have a family to feed.  Plus, someone's got to pay for my Social Security. 

[faberryman]

Comparing the West to Asians, especially China which has a dictatorial government, is a fruitless exercise.

Not really fruitless. You can see what works and what doesn't and make a decision if you are willing to make the sacrifice for the benefit. It needn't be one or the other. There is a lot of room between the extremes.

[Alan Klein]

Not really fruitless. You can see what works and what doesn't and make a decision if you are willing to make the sacrifice for the benefit.

But the Western governments aren't willing either.  Our leaders' rules are rather mild compared to Asia because ours want to be re-elected.  Xi is president for life.

[faberryman]

But the Western governments aren't willing either.  Our leaders' rules are rather mild compared to Asia because ours want to be re-elected.  Xi is president for life.

I do not know what the current restrictions are in China or Thailand or Vietnam. Mild rules didn't work out all that well for Trump.

[Alan Klein]

I do not know what the current restrictions are in China or Thailand or Vietnam. Mild rules didn't work out all that well for Trump.

Can't we get past the election?  It's over. Trump hasn't made the rules.  Governors have.  Every rule I live under in New Jersey was mandated by NJ Governor Murphy and some modifications by local officials like my mayor. .  Every state has its own governor and mayors making the rules.  The federal government provided additional PPE resources, hospitals, and coordinated vaccine development and distribution.  The CDC came up with their protocols.  But it was left to governors to implement them as they saw fit.  Blaming Trump for the rules is silly.  He was the one who originally said he would do that.  And all the governors told him to butt out.  It's their prerogatives.

[faberryman]

Annual flu and common cold rates also go up in the winter because we spend more time indoors.  Interestingly, since the COvid started, my wife and I haven't a one cold between us, probably due to isolation.  What's been the experience of members here regarding common colds?   I suspect they've gone down everywhere too.

I usually only get colds in the winter, so the fact that I haven't gotten a cold this March-November time period isn't remarkable or indicative of anything. I certainly wouldn't want to make a generalized statement based on my personal experience.

[Alan Klein]

So now the question is who gets the vaccine first?  I think we should give it to those who refuse to wear a mask since they're the most vulnerable.  What do you think? 

[digitaldog]

That would be a smart personal choice if you are an obese American

And yet, an obese American named Trump would do, and recommend to others....  Indeed, not so smart.

[faberryman]

So now the question is who gets the vaccine first?  I think we should give it to those who refuse to wear a mask since they're the most vulnerable.  What do you think? 

The CDC is meeting on Tuesday to determine its recommendations.