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Author Topic: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa  (Read 1296671 times)

digitaldog

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #3320 on: December 02, 2020, 05:12:38 pm »

Trump needs to shut up about Georgia or the senate's going Democrat.
He isn't the only one who should shut up, certainly those who said they would (recently here, about the election) but can't, don't, then suggest others should shut up.
Yes, there is a word for this on going behavior. 💩
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LesPalenik

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #3321 on: December 02, 2020, 05:37:26 pm »

You're changing the subject.  You brought up old democratic accusations that were part of a smear campaign.  You accused him of colluding with the Russians, violating emoluments laws, and other illegal stuff, none of which he was charged with or found guilty of.   So now, ignoring my defense of your false charges, you now accuse him of exercising his right of free speech.  How many years do you think he should get?

Right of free speech is very different from enticing armed uprising.
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LesPalenik

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #3322 on: December 02, 2020, 05:42:40 pm »

Maggie Haberman is the person I am most critical of.  She was the one who always appeared on the talk shows smearing Trump after she just got through writing a news article on him in the NY Times. How could you trust what she wrote?

There was a point where the editor of the NY Times cautioned their reporters to not overdue their appearances.  They obviously must have feared that their paper wouldn't be taken seriously by people like me.  Obviously, they didn't care because she continued to appear on these shows.  Frankly, it doesn't really matter to them because 95% of their readers hate Trump.  So it probably helped their sales.  The NY Times which I've read for over 60 years, was always on the left.  And always biased.  But never as bad as it's been as the last four years. But they quadrupled sales and I guess that's all they care about.  And Haberman I believe gets paid handsomely every time she appears on the anti-Trump cable channels like CNN.

If it is indeed so, that could be natural reaction to point out the crazy things in the White House in the last four years.
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LesPalenik

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #3323 on: December 02, 2020, 05:53:53 pm »

So let's see.  Half the country says one thing and the other half is saying the opposite.  Who's lying?  Well, half of the country.  Blaming the president for lying all the time is just bias. Sure he does some of the time. He also uses rhetoric and hyperbole which are interpreted as lies by the biased press, wordsmiths who know better.  To think that other politicians are telling the truth.  That Trump inventing political lies is rather hard to believe.  Every time Congressman Adam Schiff opens his mouth a chill goes up my spine. Well, there's no point going down the list. Who knows who else didn't have sex with that person.

That is an understatement of the 21st century. At the latest count, Trump uttered over 20,000 lies - just in the last 4 years. 
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TechTalk

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #3324 on: December 02, 2020, 05:59:49 pm »

Oh, please, man! You are smarter than that.

At least smart enough to recognize a patronizing remark and and not be offended by it. Your opinion is yours to express as you see it.

You and I both know how to google.

There are people that really should use it more often.

And how the role of "fact-checkers" is to spin the story for those they are ideologically close to.

No. I don't make those kind of assumptions or assertions. Many of the fact-checkers are at least a good starting point for getting better information and dissecting spin. The better ones offer primary sources and links to more detailed and contextually complete information in addition to highlighting what is fact, speculation, false, misrepresented, or misleading in statements. Factcheck.org, which I linked to, is among the best and maybe the best of the bunch.

Here's are some recent examples that you can make of what you will.

https://www.factcheck.org/2020/10/factchecking-bidens-town-hall

https://www.factcheck.org/2020/10/factchecking-trumps-town-hall

https://www.factcheck.org/2020/10/biden-on-the-stump

https://www.factcheck.org/2020/10/trump-on-the-stump

Do you really believe it is only Republicans who use such a tactic?

No. I don't believe that and have never made such a claim.

I just find it ironic that Nancy decided to describe it, as if her side never uses it.

I find it refreshing to hear the inside baseball tactics acknowledged and explained by a high-ranking politician from either party. Rare when it happens. I kind of miss former Republican Senator Alan Simpson as he used to expose the tactics and hypocrisy that exists on both sides of the aisle... and usually with great humor and affect.
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #3325 on: December 02, 2020, 06:03:51 pm »

... Trump uttered over 20,000 lies - just in the last 4 years. 

Based on hostile, biased criteria that deliberately interpret generalizations as details, hyperboles as facts, rhetorical as literal, and broad-brush paintings analyzed microscopically. After so many years, you'd think the media would adapt to his lingo, alas...

Chris Kern

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #3326 on: December 02, 2020, 06:04:16 pm »

The New York Times has more or less become a mouthpiece of the leftwing of the Democratic Party, just at the WSJ has become a mouthpiece of the rightwing Republicans. . . .

(I also tend to trust the WSJ news columns on business news; and I mostly trust the hard news reporters for both the NYT and Wapo -- it's the columnists and editorialists, who have been promoted far above their natural importance, IMHO, that constitute the real problem. That also goes for the lead talking heads on Fox, CNN and MSNBC.)

The New York Times, the Wall Street Journal, and the Washington Post all clearly distinguish between their news coverage and their opinion contributions—an attribute that sadly is not shared with many of our regional papers here in the States (not to mention the newspapers in other democratic countries) and certainly not with the U.S. cable TV news channels, which promiscuously mix news and commentary.  I've long believed the Post has a systemic problem with bias creeping into some of its news reports—more a result of anemic editing rather than an intentional management desire to slant the news—but the other two "national" newspapers maintain a level of rigor that few other publications anywhere are able to achieve.

The Times and the Post also deserve credit for regularly publishing conservative columnists and op-ed opinion contributions, although most of their opinion coverage inclines to the left.

TechTalk

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #3327 on: December 02, 2020, 06:27:29 pm »

Unfortunately, the internet has really damaged the ability of many to appreciate, or to even recognize, professional journalism and the associated standards and ethics. Unless they're being fed exactly what they want to hear and find emotionally satisfying, many prefer to get their "news" from the snake pit of facebook and twitter feeds or some online rubbish of blogs and "news" sites that suit their preexisting beliefs, feelings, and prejudices.

Papers like the Times, Journal, and Post have earned their reputations for excellent journalism and editing thru years of hard work. But of course their reporters and editors are human beings and make occasional errors, publish corrections, or fall short of the highest standards which ideological fanatics will seize upon to dismiss everything that they publish. Sigh.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2020, 06:40:08 pm by TechTalk »
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BernardLanguillier

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #3328 on: December 02, 2020, 06:30:56 pm »

Based on hostile, biased criteria that deliberately interpret generalizations as details, hyperboles as facts, rhetorical as literal, and broad-brush paintings analyzed microscopically. After so many years, you'd think the media would adapt to his lingo, alas...

Well... you seem to believe a lot of the things he says, so the problem really isn't the media it's the way people listen to his lies, starting with his crazy claims that Biden is a socialist. And if not him his Vice President.

The media is just highlighting the facts in hope that people would accept to give up on their blind follow up and realize how poor a proposition Trump was.

But, by a fascinating mechanism of self-defeating bias, most Trump supporters, including yourself it would seem, prefer to see the criticism of Trump lies as a criticism of themselves. So deep is the association you have created between Trump and yourself.

Why would someone would deprive himself so profoundly of the freedom of looking objectively at reality is beyond me, but then again it's very similar to what we see in camera fanboyism so it's not unheard of.

Who are the Trump supporters? Educated middle class people, mostly white, formerly Fox fed, owning guns and hating the fact that some hard working Chinese immigrants make more money than them working for leftie companies like Facebook and Twitter in gay San Francisco, Wall Street infected New York or corrupt Washington? Their concerns would be perfectly understandable even if many of these are based more on stories they have heard than on the reality. What's harder to understand is them giving up on most of their values to support someone like Trump who doesn't care about them the least bit and is just exploiting their anger for his own personal benefits.

Cheers,
Bernard
« Last Edit: December 02, 2020, 06:40:19 pm by BernardLanguillier »
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LesPalenik

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #3329 on: December 02, 2020, 06:48:58 pm »

Quote
... Trump uttered over 20,000 lies - just in the last 4 years.

Based on hostile, biased criteria that deliberately interpret generalizations as details, hyperboles as facts, rhetorical as literal, and broad-brush paintings analyzed microscopically. After so many years, you'd think the media would adapt to his lingo, alas...

Well, if we took just 10% of his lies and discarded all hyperboles and tantrums, it would be still over 2,000. 
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faberryman

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #3330 on: December 02, 2020, 06:54:47 pm »

Based on hostile, biased criteria that deliberately interpret generalizations as details, hyperboles as facts, rhetorical as literal, and broad-brush paintings analyzed microscopically. After so many years, you'd think the media would adapt to his lingo, alas...

I don't think the exact number is that important. You can always quibble about what is a lie, what is an exaggeration, what is an aspirational statement, what is rhetorical, and the like. He has lied often enough that I don't believe anything he says. You may feel differently. Everybody probably has a different threshold of what they will tolerate before no longer extending someone the benefit of the doubt.
« Last Edit: December 02, 2020, 07:09:55 pm by faberryman »
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chez

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #3331 on: December 02, 2020, 07:04:42 pm »

So let's see.  Half the country says one thing and the other half is saying the opposite.  Who's lying?  Well, half of the country.  Blaming the president for lying all the time is just bias. Sure he does some of the time.  He also uses rhetoric and hyperbole which are interpreted as lies by the biased press, wordsmiths who know better.  To think that other politicians are telling the truth.  That Trump inventing political lies is rather hard to believe.  Every time Congressman Adam Schiff opens his mouth a chill goes up my spine. Well, there's no point going down the list. Who knows who else didn't have sex with that person.

It's not just the lying about the latest election...it's about the constant lies Trump manufactured and have been proven by fact checks these last 4 years. It's about his constant childish name calling. It's about his non action on the black lives matter movement. It's Trump's out of control presidential debate. And so on.

Tell me Alan, how would you feel if your grandchildren's elementary school teacher acted like Trump?
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chez

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #3332 on: December 02, 2020, 07:06:52 pm »

But what abut when people smear themselves. There's some talk that Trump would like to pardon his kids and wife (I think it included his wife). By wanting them pardoned, isn't he implying that they did something they need to be pardoned for?

When the President pardons people, does he need to spell out what they're being pardoned for?

If it's like waving a magic wand or issuing a blanket "Get out of Jail" card, isn't that kind of anti-democratic?

Since when does Trump care about democracy?
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Peter McLennan

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #3333 on: December 02, 2020, 07:09:13 pm »

most Trump supporters, including yourself it would seem, prefer to see the criticism of Trump lies as a criticism of themselves...

An excellent point.  Perhaps that's why they frequently respond to criticism of Trump with defensive accusations of hate speech by "libs".

« Last Edit: December 02, 2020, 07:13:56 pm by Peter McLennan »
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chez

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #3334 on: December 02, 2020, 07:09:26 pm »

Reading this is just hilarious. The Keystone Cops of election litigation. Trump has raised $170M and this is the best he can do?

Wisconsin Federal Judge Picks Apart Sidney Powell and Lin Wood’s Lawsuit in ‘Brutal’ Order

https://lawandcrime.com/2020-election/wisconsin-federal-judge-picks-apart-sidney-powell-and-lin-woods-lawsuit-in-brutal-order/

Do you really think that $170M is to be used for litigation costs? He's duped his sheeple out of their hard earned money to pay off his campaign costs...what a guy...con.
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Alan Klein

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #3335 on: December 02, 2020, 07:14:20 pm »

Right of free speech is very different from enticing armed uprising.
I agree.  However, I've been trying to find it on Google where Flynn enticed an armed uprising.  Do you have a link?  I'd like to read exactly what he said.

chez

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #3336 on: December 02, 2020, 07:14:51 pm »

That is an understatement of the 21st century. At the latest count, Trump uttered over 20,000 lies - just in the last 4 years.

That's like 14 lies everyday for the last 4 years. In other words, you cannot believe a single thing coming out of a compulsive liar's mouth.
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digitaldog

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #3337 on: December 02, 2020, 07:17:46 pm »

Based on hostile, biased criteria that deliberately interpret generalizations as details, hyperboles as facts, rhetorical as literal, and broad-brush paintings analyzed microscopically. After so many years, you'd think the media would adapt to his lingo, alas...
The media should adapt, lingo not bold faced lies: rubbish.
"He who permits himself to tell a lie once, finds it much easier to do it a second and a third time till at length it becomes habitual."-Jefferson
2000 times in less than 4 years. Trump; habitual liar.
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Alan Klein

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #3338 on: December 02, 2020, 07:19:16 pm »

That is an understatement of the 21st century. At the latest count, Trump uttered over 20,000 lies - just in the last 4 years. 
Counted by Democrats and anti-Trumpers.  How many lies did the press and the Democrats tell about Trump and Russian collusion over and over again?  How many times did they lie when they called him a traitor? Of course, the press couldn't be bothered with counting those. But we're fighting the election again.  This has all been politics at its worse for my country.

Alan Klein

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #3339 on: December 02, 2020, 07:27:03 pm »

Based on hostile, biased criteria that deliberately interpret generalizations as details, hyperboles as facts, rhetorical as literal, and broad-brush paintings analyzed microscopically. After so many years, you'd think the media would adapt to his lingo, alas...
Of course you're right.  The expression was while his enemies took him literally, everyone with common sense took him figurately.  Normal people talk rhetorically, hyperbolically, etc.  It's just like people calling me a liar here.  They're just playing games. They know what people are saying.  But the press didn't want to understand what he was saying.  They'd rather take him literally so they could laugh at him and call him a liar. 

The one that stands out to me is when he said Obama was tapping his phone.  The press said that's ridiculous.  Well, of course, Obama didn't sneak into the basement of Trump towers and bug his phone and listen personally.  What Trump meant was he was being spied up, surveilled illegally.  And that turned out to be the truth when we found out what the FBI and the FISA court were doing.  But the press called him foolish and a liar.  And people here bought into it too because they wanted too. 
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