Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa

[Jonathan Cross]

From across the pond in the UK, I find what is happening in the USA really scary, particularly as I thought it is the land of the free.  In The Times newspaper in the UK on May 11th the political cartoon was of the American flag flying in two pieces.  Can people not aim to live in harmony, or is it the case that different factions believe they are the only ones who know what is right?  Everyone else is wrong at best or an outcast. This is before I even begin to think about the gun culture.

 Jonathan

[marvpelkey]

"Can people not aim to live in harmony...."

I'm not actually sure mankind is able to live in harmony, at least for any length of time.

It may seem peaceful for awhile, but eventually one or more of the human traits will bubble to the surface and cause a disruption. I don't think there has ever been a society where ego, greed, hatred, fear, jealousy (and all the others I can't think of right now) eventually threatens that society.

I think the only difference between now and generations past, is the current speed of social media helps things along a lot more quickly and, in the case of the U.S. in particular, the vast proliferation of extreme killing machines can be used too easily.

[Robert Roaldi]

"Can people not aim to live in harmony...."

I'm not actually sure mankind is able to live in harmony, at least for any length of time.

It may seem peaceful for awhile, but eventually one or more of the human traits will bubble to the surface and cause a disruption. I don't think there has ever been a society where ego, greed, hatred, fear, jealousy (and all the others I can't think of right now) eventually threatens that society.

I think the only difference between now and generations past, is the current speed of social media helps things along a lot more quickly and, in the case of the U.S. in particular, the vast proliferation of extreme killing machines can be used too easily.

We created society/culture/government/rules to keep us from randomly slaughtering each other. We don't fall into order, we fall into chaos, and it requires work to be civilized. I think you're right that humans can't live in harmony all the time, and that's why we evolved mechanisms for dealing with disputes. When those systems break down because of neglect or corruption, the solution is to fix those systems, not to arm everyone. But the mythology of the "lone gunman" in the US and elsewhere is very strong. It's self-delusion, imo, but it makes people "feel" good and that's a powerful draw. But are people really in that much danger? And are they really able to defend themselves by buying guns? Lots of people think so but is it true?

[PeterAit]

All too many Americans are focused on their "rights" to the exclusion of their responsibilities. And there is a most disturbing "culture of ignorance" where many people, almost all on the right, are actually proud to be ill-educated and stupid and think that their opinions should carry equal weight.

[MattBurt]

All too many Americans are focused on their "rights" to the exclusion of their responsibilities. And there is a most disturbing "culture of ignorance" where many people, almost all on the right, are actually proud to be ill-educated and stupid and think that their opinions should carry equal weight.

Yeah this false equivalence is at the heart of the problem. An uninformed or misinformed opinion is not as valid as a well-informed one. (shocker!)

[Frans Waterlander]

All too many Americans are focused on their "rights" to the exclusion of their responsibilities. And there is a most disturbing "culture of ignorance" where many people, almost all on the right, are actually proud to be ill-educated and stupid and think that their opinions should carry equal weight.

And almost all on the left are what? Ashamed to be well-educated and smart? Think before you write should apply to everybody on the right and on the left. Stop spewing your bile.

[digitaldog]

And almost all on the left are what?

Correct answer; on the left.
"If fifty million people say a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing."-Bertrand Russell
On the left or the right....

[marvpelkey]

"And are they really able to defend themselves by buying guns? Lots of people think so but is it true?"

Having spent 30 years as a cop, and witnessed the reactions, thought processes and abilities of trained officers under stress, I can honestly say even some members don't react appropriately in the moment.

Most people out there have the false confidence that, should violence occur such as a shooting, they will be the superhero, take perfect aim and eliminate the threat. Not even close to reality.

In some rare instances, given some time between alert and action, a few will manage, but for most of those situations where no prior warning is given (eg mass shooting), effective response by an untrained, unprepared citizen is a fool's dream.

A couple of the latest examples is the young fellow who called 911 for police assistance, and ended up being shot by the responding officer, and the female officer who, tragically, mistook her firearm for a taser. Even the best and the trained (although who knows how "best" and trained they actually were) make mistakes under stress.

[PeterAit]

And almost all on the left are what? Ashamed to be well-educated and smart? Think before you write should apply to everybody on the right and on the left. Stop spewing your bile.

What "bile?" Your post makes no sense.

I am ashamed of the super-woke liberals who have abandoned intelligence and reason to pursue an agenda of cancel culture and finger wagging. But it is exclusively the right wing that espouses wacko conspracy therories like stolen election, sex ring at pizza parlor, Jewish space lasers, and the like. And is exclusively the right wing that threatens violence against people they disagree with, from school boards to corporations to city councils. Do you want to be part of this?

[Robert Roaldi]

...

I am ashamed of the super-woke liberals who have abandoned intelligence and reason to pursue an agenda of cancel culture and finger wagging. But it is exclusively the right wing that espouses wacko conspracy therories like stolen election, sex ring at pizza parlor, Jewish space lasers, and the like. And is exclusively the right wing that threatens violence against people they disagree with, from school boards to corporations to city councils. Do you want to be part of this?

Here's a related story of a shooter who is dissatisfied with the election process in New Mexico, https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/jun/01/solomon-pena-charged-shootings-new-mexico-republican.

The article doesn't say but I wonder if these kinds of incidents more common than we know and it's only the occasional story that surfaces in the media. An earlier conversation in this thread asked whether people spouting the various conspiracy theories are true believers or just ride-alongs. I have to think that this guy was a true believer. Of course this story is only really about another obviously unbalanced individual and not indicative of much else, but he did  manage to find two buddies to come along and help.

[digitaldog]

Your post makes no sense.

That's plural 

[Frans Waterlander]

What "bile?"

"..."culture of ignorance" where many people, almost all on the right, are actually proud to be ill-educated and stupid and think that their opinions should carry equal weight." That bile.

[PeterAit]

"..."culture of ignorance" where many people, almost all on the right, are actually proud to be ill-educated and stupid and think that their opinions should carry equal weight." That bile.

Since when are observable facts considered "bile?"

[MattBurt]

Since when are observable facts considered "bile?"

When they don't fit the narrative

[Frans Waterlander]

Since when are observable facts considered "bile?"

I rest my case.

[digitaldog]

I rest my case.

Nope.
“The right to be heard does not include the right to be taken seriously”. Anonymous
At least in the photo forums you post in.

You've got to love the behaviour of someone who about once a month walks into the room, takes a dump on the carpet and departs, never to be seen again until next month.

https://forum.luminous-landscape.com/index.php?topic=136697.msg1222178#msg1222178

[Robert Roaldi]

I see that Texas is stopping trans care for minors, the latest state to do so. Why in the US of all places is the government sticking its nose into people's private medical decisions? What's next, death panels.

It's an odd combo, isn't it, a country where millions rebelled against Covid vaccines (but are presumably ok with polio and small pox vaccines) because they don't want the government telling them what to do is now in favour of the government micro-managing the private lives of a very small number of people for what seem to be largely emotional reasons. I presume this has to do with the belief that kids are being groomed.

This might fit in with the De Santis promise to rid the US of "liberalism" and "wokeism". I wonder if he's planning to use re-education camps.

[Robert Roaldi]

A Utah school district bans the bible?  https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-65794363.

In the states where this is happening, how can one or two parents get a book banned? What if dozens or hundreds of other parents in a district think the book is ok, don't they get a say? Is there no appeal procedure? The news reports make it sound as if there are no hearings, the book banning just happens, can this be right?

[digitaldog]

Book ban: talk about fair play:
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/rcna87450
Utah parent upset by book bans gets Bible pulled from school shelves to expose ‘bad faith process’
An eight-page typed list of examples of objectionable material from the Bible, quoting the exact scriptures, was included in the complaint.

"Incest, onanism, bestiality, prostitution, genital mutilation, fellatio, dildos, rape, and even infanticide," the parent wrote. "You’ll no doubt find that the Bible, under Utah Code Ann. § 76-10-1227, has ‘no serious values for minors’ because it’s pornographic by our new definition."

[marvpelkey]

Now that Pence and Christie have declared, I am really interested in seeing how the Republican voters treat them (especially those who dislike Trump).

A few years back, they unashamedly lavished praise on Trump, now they (especially Christie) are telling the public how bad he is. And Pence is trying to come off as the hero, because of a single (right) decision he made, after years of being a lapdog.

Just seems so artificial, and transparent, to me.

Having said that, I happened to, whilst eating lunch, watch the speech Pence gave today, and I was quite impressed. He is a very good speaker. A lot of credit to his writers, I suppose.