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Author Topic: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa  (Read 334707 times)

Alan Klein

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #10760 on: May 31, 2021, 12:24:06 pm »

Yes they do (fortunately):And now we'll hear the rebuttal not with facts or data but with the sad: "that's just name-calling and personal insults."

"I would like to take you seriously, but to do so would affront your intelligence. -William F. Buckley, Jr.
See, even an old, die hard conservative like Buckley had a good line for Alan's posting agenda.  ;)
Here are some facts.

Green Energy Makes German Electricity Prices Highest In Europe
Why do so few countries in Europe follow Germany in green electricity? The answer could lie in electricity prices:

Not only has electricity gotten expensive in these countries, but the supply is highly unreliable.
...
Germany’s massive 110 GW of installed solar and wind energy capacity produced next to nothing over a period of five days earlier this month, not even coming close to meeting the country’s demand:
...
300,000 households lose power: Fortunately, there were fossil and nuclear power plants available to keep the power grid from collapsing.

But there’s a problem: It’s very uneconomical to operate these conventional plants only part-time. The added costs end up being borne by the consumer.

And due to the high electricity rates, every year tens of thousands of German households see their power cut off due to unpaid electricity bills, read here and here.

https://climatechangedispatch.com/green-energy-makes-german-electricity-prices-highest-in-europe/

LesPalenik

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #10761 on: May 31, 2021, 12:34:22 pm »

The electricity rate in Germany is so high because they don't have nuclear power generation plants.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2021, 02:11:31 pm by LesPalenik »
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digitaldog

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #10762 on: May 31, 2021, 12:35:18 pm »

Here are some facts.
Green Energy Makes German Electricity Prices Highest In Europe
So what?
You simply can't connect dots again, assume and knee jerk without looking at the big picture (and again you will not but....) one example you'll ignore:

These dirty power plants cost billions and only operate in summer. Can they be replaced?
https://grist.org/justice/these-dirty-power-plants-cost-billions-and-only-operate-in-summer-can-they-be-replaced/
A new report has found that New Yorkers over the last decade have paid more than $4.5 billion in electricity bills to the private owners of the city’s peaker plants, just to keep those plants online in case they’re needed — even though they only operate between 90 and 500 hours a year. Even at the upper limit, that’s less than three weeks.
Environmental justice advocates
(AR: What Alan will call liberals) say that there’s another way.
“Instead of ratepayer money going to fossil fuel interests, we want to see that go to renewable projects, to community solar projects, to energy storage and other clean energy initiatives,” said Annel Hernandez, associate director of the New York City Environmental Justice Alliance (NYC-EJA). When it comes to transitioning away from fossil fuels, peaker plants are the “lowest-hanging fruit, because they’re only powered during peak demand.”
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Alan Klein

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #10763 on: May 31, 2021, 12:49:49 pm »

So what?
You simply can't connect dots again, assume and knee jerk without looking at the big picture (and again you will not but....) one example you'll ignore:

These dirty power plants cost billions and only operate in summer. Can they be replaced?
https://grist.org/justice/these-dirty-power-plants-cost-billions-and-only-operate-in-summer-can-they-be-replaced/
A new report has found that New Yorkers over the last decade have paid more than $4.5 billion in electricity bills to the private owners of the city’s peaker plants, just to keep those plants online in case they’re needed — even though they only operate between 90 and 500 hours a year. Even at the upper limit, that’s less than three weeks.
Environmental justice advocates
(AR: What Alan will call liberals) say that there’s another way.
“Instead of ratepayer money going to fossil fuel interests, we want to see that go to renewable projects, to community solar projects, to energy storage and other clean energy initiatives,” said Annel Hernandez, associate director of the New York City Environmental Justice Alliance (NYC-EJA). When it comes to transitioning away from fossil fuels, peaker plants are the “lowest-hanging fruit, because they’re only powered during peak demand.”

But you need fossil fuel plants as backup when the wind doesn't blow or the sun shine.  That's why green plants don't save money overall. 

In NYS last year, Gov Cuomo order a multi billion dollar plan to install wind generators off-shore.  That alone is going to cost thousands of dollars for each user and extra higher charges to maintain facilities in the ocean.  What he didn't mention is that they have to spend billions more to build fossil fuel plants to pick up the slack when the wind is not blowing.  The cost for those fossil fuel plants will be buried in KWH charges in everyone in the state's electric bills.  The utility will not be allowed to break out those costs as a separate line entry so they can hide the fact of the real costs for wind producing electricity.  So overall costs for electricity will go up, just like in Germany, even though more green energy will be used.  It's a scam.

digitaldog

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #10764 on: May 31, 2021, 12:53:05 pm »

But you need fossil fuel plants as backup when the wind doesn't blow or the sun shine. 
No, you don't need fossil fuel as a backup. Another silly assumption and generalization.

You'd be far better off trying to learn and understand how to backup your computer than making more silly generalizations here about topics far, far more complex than backing up a computer. You computer will be better off, we'll be better off, maybe your poor wife will be better off too.
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Robert Roaldi

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #10765 on: May 31, 2021, 12:57:18 pm »

...
Even where heating is available, if you had young children, would you want to be forced to lower the thermostat and hear them complain about being cold because you can't afford high electric rates to heat if that was all that was available?
...

Why not? From things you've said in the past you think it's ok for people to get sick and die if they can't afford health care. Having to pay a bit more for heating seems a small price to pay in comparison.

Energy costs what it costs. Did you get a contract from god when you were born that said that gasoline and home heating were going to be cheap forever so that you could buy inefficient gas guzzlers and improperly insulated homes your whole life?
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digitaldog

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #10766 on: May 31, 2021, 01:01:08 pm »

Did you get a contract from god when you were born that said that gasoline and home heating were going to be cheap forever so that you could buy inefficient gas guzzlers and improperly insulated homes your whole life?
Was gasoline distillation invented back then?  ;D
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Alan Klein

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #10767 on: May 31, 2021, 01:15:53 pm »

No, you don't need fossil fuel as a backup. Another silly assumption and generalization.

You'd be far better off trying to learn and understand how to backup your computer than making more silly generalizations here about topics far, far more complex than backing up a computer. You computer will be better off, we'll be better off, maybe your poor wife will be better off too.
Well, you could backup wind and solar with nuclear instead of fossil fuel.  Except that Gov Cuomo shut down Indian Point Nuclear Facility in upstate NY and previously shut down the nuclear plant on Long Island, NY, compounding their mistakes. Fossil fuel plants will now have to run 1/3 harder to make up the loss of cleaner nuclear generated electricity. 

So they'll to build more fossil fuel plants to run when the sun doesn't shine or wind blows.  Maybe we can import solar electricity from sunny New Mexico.  :)

I was just checking and see the cost for his off-shore wind is going up and up.  We'll have to move to Germany where it's cheaper.

Alan Klein

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #10768 on: May 31, 2021, 01:24:22 pm »

Why not? From things you've said in the past you think it's ok for people to get sick and die if they can't afford health care. Having to pay a bit more for heating seems a small price to pay in comparison.

Energy costs what it costs. Did you get a contract from god when you were born that said that gasoline and home heating were going to be cheap forever so that you could buy inefficient gas guzzlers and improperly insulated homes your whole life?
I never said I'm for people getting sick and dying.  How can you say that? What I said is that if the government got out of it, health care would be less costly and available to more people.  For those who really can't get it, it would be cheaper to just give them help rather than trying to change the whole health system to a wasteful government run system.

Regarding heating, explain why it's acceptable,  that "God says it's OK" for people who cannot afford to heat their homes because of higher utility bills that they should freeze to death?  Our government officials are suppose to be accounting for these things and not passing on higher costs to the public for basic necessities like heating your home and cooking your food.  That hurts the poor the most.  I thought you wanted to help the poor?

digitaldog

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #10769 on: May 31, 2021, 01:28:29 pm »

Well, you could backup wind and solar with nuclear instead of fossil fuel.
Yes! So you've already discovered one (and there are many other) possible backups (a topic you are beginning to learn about).
So you've now seen your last knee-jerk post ("But you need fossil fuel plants as backup when the wind doesn't blow or the sun shine") was wrong.
Maybe using "The Google Machine" you can find other backups.
Quote
Except that Gov Cuomo shut down Indian Point Nuclear Facility in upstate NY and previously shut down the nuclear plant on Long Island, NY, compounding their mistakes.
You assume again, without study, that all nuclear facilities are equal and all should be kept running.
Maybe the folks at MIT, who kind of know this topic, can help you:
https://www.technologyreview.com/2019/02/27/136920/the-new-safer-nuclear-reactors-that-might-help-stop-climate-change/
You'll have to click on that link. You'll have to actually read the content.
Then maybe you'll find other options for backup besides fossil fuel. Maybe.
Or maybe, the knee will jerk with another post that is sadly wrong.  :'(
« Last Edit: May 31, 2021, 01:34:49 pm by digitaldog »
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Alan Klein

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #10770 on: May 31, 2021, 01:48:53 pm »

Yes! So you've already discovered one (and there are many other) possible backups (a topic you are beginning to learn about).
So you've now seen your last knee-jerk post ("But you need fossil fuel plants as backup when the wind doesn't blow or the sun shine") was wrong.
Maybe using "The Google Machine" you can find other backups. You assume again, without study, that all nuclear facilities are equal and all should be kept running.
Maybe the folks at MIT, who kind of know this topic, can help you:
https://www.technologyreview.com/2019/02/27/136920/the-new-safer-nuclear-reactors-that-might-help-stop-climate-change/
You'll have to click on that link. You'll have to actually read the content.
Then maybe you'll find other options for backup besides fossil fuel. Maybe.
Or maybe, the knee will jerk with another post that is sadly wrong.  :'(
But nuclear isn't going to happen.  NYS is shutting them down.  Nuclear is a moot issue. The only major available backup to intermittent green wind and solar is fossil fuel.  We can't build dams either that would make a difference. 

Don't get me wrong.  I have no interest in burning dirty fossil fuels.  If we can use nuclear effectively and cheaply, I'm all for that.   The problem with your argument that there are no  non-fossil fuel backups because they are not going to be built or they aren't applicable or large enough. 

digitaldog

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #10771 on: May 31, 2021, 01:53:12 pm »

But nuclear isn't going to happen.
The expert predictor speaks again. More silliness and assumptions, utter lack of checking on other alternatives.
Impossible to take you seriously.
Quote
The only major available backup to intermittent green wind and solar is fossil fuel.
No, it isn't. And just because you believe this without a lick of proof or understanding doesn't make it true.
Quote
Don't get me wrong.
You are fully capable of doing this yourself and you have. Proving you wrong is relatively easy. Many here do it daily.
Quote
The problem with your argument that there are no  non-fossil fuel backups because they are not going to be built or they aren't applicable or large enough.
Simply another assumption without a lick of facts. Did you hear this on Fox "News" or you're now getting your 'information' from OAN and Newsmax?
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chez

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #10772 on: May 31, 2021, 02:29:41 pm »

But while we're trying to change society to reduce crime, we have to use police to stop it while it's happening.  It's not an either/or situation.  We have to do both.

So you just keep building more jails and filling them up? How's that working for you?
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Robert Roaldi

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #10773 on: May 31, 2021, 02:34:00 pm »

So you just keep building more jails and filling them up? How's that working for you?

It's working just fine for the for-profit private prison industry. ;)
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Robert Roaldi

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #10774 on: May 31, 2021, 02:35:39 pm »

I never said I'm for people getting sick and dying.  How can you say that? What I said is that if the government got out of it, health care would be less costly and available to more people.  For those who really can't get it, it would be cheaper to just give them help rather than trying to change the whole health system to a wasteful government run system.

Regarding heating, explain why it's acceptable,  that "God says it's OK" for people who cannot afford to heat their homes because of higher utility bills that they should freeze to death?  Our government officials are suppose to be accounting for these things and not passing on higher costs to the public for basic necessities like heating your home and cooking your food.  That hurts the poor the most.  I thought you wanted to help the poor?

Wait a minute. Are you advocating that government step in and keep energy prices artificially low to help poor people? I thought you believed in the free market.
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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #10775 on: May 31, 2021, 02:51:58 pm »

I never said I'm for people getting sick and dying.  How can you say that? What I said is that if the government got out of it, health care would be less costly and available to more people.  For those who really can't get it, it would be cheaper to just give them help rather than trying to change the whole health system to a wasteful government run system.

How do you square that with the US having one of the most expensive health care systems of western industrialized countries. Shouldn't it be among the cheapest, since it has the least government involvement in health care. Or at least trending in that direction anyway. What's causing the discrepancy?
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Alan Klein

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #10776 on: May 31, 2021, 02:52:40 pm »

So you just keep building more jails and filling them up? How's that working for you?
Where did that come from?  I said we should be looking into seeing why there's crime and how to reduce it and to lock up felons.  Who suggested building more jails and filling them up?  Maybe we should lock up a few LuLa's.  :)

Alan Klein

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #10777 on: May 31, 2021, 02:55:42 pm »

Wait a minute. Are you advocating that government step in and keep energy prices artificially low to help poor people? I thought you believed in the free market.
No.  That's not necessary. I'm suggesting that government get out of deciding what to build, regulating so much, shutting down nuclear plants, and allowing cheap natural gas to be used.  Let private industry do it.  Competitively.  That would keep the prices down and allow poorer people to afford to heat their homes and cook their food.  Once government starts building all these green plants, prices for electricity will go up just as happened in Germany.  Let's learn from other's mistakes.

digitaldog

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #10778 on: May 31, 2021, 02:55:45 pm »

Where did that come from?  I said we should be looking into seeing why there's crime and how to reduce it and to lock up felons.  Who suggested building more jails and filling them up?  Maybe we should lock up a few LuLa's.  :)
I say we should be looking into seeing why there's such massive stupidity, knee-jerk posting and assumptions and how to reduce it.
Maybe we should start with one on LuLa. :D
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Alan Klein

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Re: Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa
« Reply #10779 on: May 31, 2021, 03:02:19 pm »

How do you square that with the US having one of the most expensive health care systems of western industrialized countries. Shouldn't it be among the cheapest, since it has the least government involvement in health care. Or at least trending in that direction anyway. What's causing the discrepancy?
That's not true.  About half of American health costs are paid by the government and influences its cost and procedures -  Medicare, Medicaid, Veterans' Administration, etc.  It's been growing larger year by year - even more so since Obamacare.  Government has decimated insurance competition in many states and has not allowed competitive prices to push for better products.

Also, government regulations of who can perform services and how many doctors can graduate have decreased competition and raised prices for medical services. If government ran the camera industry the same way, we'd be paying double for our equipment.   
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