Bear Pit: now the sole domicile of politics at LuLa

[Robert Roaldi]

That's not true.  About half of American health costs are paid by the government and influences its cost and procedures -  Medicare, Medicaid, Veterans' Administration, etc.  It's been growing larger year by year - even more so since Obamacare.  Government has decimated insurance competition in many states and has not allowed competitive prices to push for better products.

For me, the hardest part of private health care to swallow is the idea that insurance companies will look after my best interests better than my government. Pull the other one.

Remember, insurance companies love you while they're cashing your premium cheques. The moment you make a claim, you're adversaries. And if you get really sick, all they have to do is drag their heels a bit and wait you out. I'd have figured that a cynic like you wouldn't trust them so far as you throw them.

But your statement doesn't make much sense to begin with. All I have ever heard is that governments can make very good deals with pharmaceuticals because they're trying to get as much as they can with our money and they're the only buyers around. The insurance industry is a cost-plus business. They don't give a crap what anything costs, they can always just raise premiums. (Think about car insurance for a minute and how 5 mph bumpers were going to save us money.) The idea that the insurance industry is keeping costs down is a bit hard to believe given how much US health care costs. I mean, where's the proof that they do anything of the kind. The only situation I've ever heard of that happening is when the insurance company negotiates extravagant hospital invoices down. But extravagant hospital invoices are so outrageous, I don't understand why those buggers haven't been taken away in handcuffs. It's such an obvious racket, more like organized crime than anything else.

Also, government regulations of who can perform services and how many doctors can graduate have decreased competition and raised prices for medical services. If government ran the camera industry the same way, we'd be paying double for our equipment.

Do you know this for a fact that this is happening or is this regurgitated insurance company propaganda? Because you do know that they do that, you know. They spend millions doing that, plenty of documentation.

Only an ideologue believes that their narrow methodology applies to everything. Making the case that medical services is a competition-based business is a howler. But then, there are some people who would privatize the military and police forces, so nothing surprises me anymore.

[Alan Klein]

For me, the hardest part of private health care to swallow is the idea that insurance companies will look after my best interests better than my government. Pull the other one.

Remember, insurance companies love you while they're cashing your premium cheques. The moment you make a claim, you're adversaries. And if you get really sick, all they have to do is drag their heels a bit and wait you out. I'd have figured that a cynic like you wouldn't trust them so far as you throw them.

But your statement doesn't make much sense to begin with. All I have ever heard is that governments can make very good deals with pharmaceuticals because they're trying to get as much as they can with our money and they're the only buyers around. The insurance industry is a cost-plus business. They don't give a crap what anything costs, they can always just raise premiums. (Think about car insurance for a minute and how 5 mph bumpers were going to save us money.) The idea that the insurance industry is keeping costs down is a bit hard to believe given how much US health care costs. I mean, where's the proof that they do anything of the kind. The only situation I've ever heard of that happening is when the insurance company negotiates extravagant hospital invoices down. But extravagant hospital invoices are so outrageous, I don't understand why those buggers haven't been taken away in handcuffs. It's such an obvious racket, more like organized crime than anything else.




Do you know this for a fact that this is happening or is this regurgitated insurance company propaganda? Because you do know that they do that, you know. They spend millions doing that, plenty of documentation.

Only an ideologue believes that their narrow methodology applies to everything. Making the case that medical services is a competition-based business is a howler. But then, there are some people who would privatize the military and police forces, so nothing surprises me anymore.

Sorry, but I don't think the government looks out for my interests more than I do.  Leaving my health and life in the care of bureaucrats who only care about their own pensions does not strike me as a way to help myself.  Before Obamacare, around 85% of American had their own insurance paid for my themselves or their employers and were happy with it.  Currently I'm on Medicare.  Unfortunately, not all doctors are covered by it.  They have opted out of Medicare and will not accept payments.  These are the better doctors.  So if you want to hire one of them, it has to be paid personally out of your own pocket.  Had I still had private insurance, I could have had the insurance company pay for some of those costs. Also, government may limit certain treatment in the future.  I;m reminded how a BRit here who lived in Spain lost his government health insurance if he stayed in Spain.  If he had private insurance, he could have kept the insurance.  Having control of your care is better than letting the government "care" for you.

Insurance companies keep costs down by being competitive.  Just like when I shop around for car insurance like I recently did and saved around 20% on my premiums.  Every year, I select the cheapest electric utility that charges the least per KWH.  Health insurance is no difference.  People want to pay lower premiums.  So if you have competition, rates become competitive.  Some insurance companies use their own hired doctors at lower cost. Others charge more but are more flexible.  You can select you own doctor.   Like anything else, you have to shop around.  Just like you can buy a Nikon with 36mb at higher cost than a Nikon 24mb, the same with medical care.

[digitaldog]

Currently I'm on Medicare.  Unfortunately, not all doctors are covered by it.  They have opted out of Medicare and will not accept payments.  These are the better doctors. 

All doctors (in the US) who don't take Medicare are better than all doctors (in the US) that take Medicare really?
I'd ask you for data to back that up but it would be pointless.
Going back a few hours:

I'll trust the readers to draw their own conclusions about my arguments...

You make it so easy to dismiss the conclusions of your arguments!

[Alan Klein]

All doctors (in the US) who don't take Medicare are better than all doctors (in the US) that take Medicare really?
I'd ask you for data to back that up but it would be pointless.
Going back a few hours:You make it so easy to dismiss the conclusions of your arguments!

I didn't say all.  My point is generally, when you find a doctor that doesn't take Medicare, they're the better ones.  They charge more than Medicare will pay.  Of course, there are plenty of great doctors who still do take Medicare, thankfully. You'll find out when you go on Medicare in a few years.  But of course, even though you've never been on Medicare, and I have been for 8 years, you know more about it than I do.  You know more than everyone.   

[digitaldog]

I didn't say all. 

You posted yet another sentence filled with a generalization: "Unfortunately, not all doctors are covered by it.  They have opted out of Medicare and will not accept payments.  These are the better doctors".
So you're just being sloppy again?  Some are the better doctors is what you really wanted to tell us? You control your message. It's so sloppy I have to fix it for you it appears.

Of course, there are plenty of great doctors who still do take Medicare, thankfully.

Just none you can find. Got it.

But of course, even though you've never been on Medicare, and I have been for 8 years, you know more about it than I do. 

I never said that I knew more than anyone about Medicare. That's your invention. I simply examined your text and as usual, found it bogus. One doesn't have to have Medicare to call you out about another false generalization.

You know more than everyone.   

Ah yes, another silly and false generalization from Alan, based on assumptions.
The more you type, the easier it becomes for your readers to dismiss the conclusions of your arguments!
And of course, you will continue... you can't help yourself.
I wonder Alan if you can recognize anyone the forums who actually take you seriously.
Maybe your wife can join and help you out.

[Robert Roaldi]

...  Having control of your care is better than letting the government "care" for you.

Single payer health care has been explained to you several times in the past and I will not waste anyone's time going over it again. The fantasy you have about how the "government" controls my health care only reflects your ignorance of the subject. You don't know what you're talking about.

...
Insurance companies keep costs down by being competitive. ...

You've said this before several times, change the record. Someone has a mild stroke, stays in hospital overnight and gets a bill for $30,000. You continue to stick up for this obvious racketeering and try to convince yourself that your system is cheapest because the insurance company is your friend, when all the while US health care is far more expensive than other countries while at the same time NOT covering millions of people.

[Alan Klein]

Single payer health care has been explained to you several times in the past and I will not waste anyone's time going over it again. The fantasy you have about how the "government" controls my health care only reflects your ignorance of the subject. You don't know what you're talking about.


You've said this before several times, change the record. Someone has a mild stroke, stays in hospital overnight and gets a bill for $30,000. You continue to stick up for this obvious racketeering and try to convince yourself that your system is cheapest because the insurance company is your friend, when all the while US health care is far more expensive than other countries while at the same time NOT covering millions of people.

What does the cost for health care insurance have to do with what the hospital charges?  You're conflating issues.  When I paid for health insurance through my company decades ago, the hospitalization part of my insurance paid the full amount of the hospital bill less a small deductible.  The insurance company dealt with the hospital that accepted my insurance plan at the time - Blue Cross-Blue Shield.  Doctors were paid by the medical coverage of my insurance plans, also with a small deductible.

The difference today is I'm now a senior on Medicare insurance furnished by the Federal government.  But Medicare A and B plans covered these services also with a small deductible.  I just have to be careful that the doctors and facilities are covered by Medicare.  So that's the first question I ask when I get a new doctor to find out that they haven't opted out of Medicare. 

Separately, I admit the American health system is screwed up.  It's been made a mess by our government like so many other things they screw up. If you're happy with your Canadian health care, that fine.  Not everyone shoots the same camera but is happy with theirs and what it produces.

[TechTalk]

You make it so easy to dismiss the conclusions of your arguments!

His arguments never have a "conclusion". They just go on and on and round and round in endless circles of repetitive rigid ideological talking points. In and out of rabbit holes in endless endless mind-numbing circles.

[Alan Klein]

His arguments never have a "conclusion". They just go on and on and round and round in endless circles of repetitive rigid ideological talking points. In and out of rabbit holes in endless endless mind-numbing circles.

The truth is consistent.

[digitaldog]

The truth is consistent.

If only you recognized and reported the truth. Instead of as a consistent fabulist.

[TechTalk]

When you hand your mind over to a narrow ideology, looking for the truth is like being in a funhouse hall-of-mirrors. Everywhere you look, all you see is your ideology reflecting back at you.

[Robert Roaldi]

What does the cost for health care insurance have to do with what the hospital charges?  You're conflating issues.  When I paid for health insurance through my company decades ago, the hospitalization part of my insurance paid the full amount of the hospital bill less a small deductible.  The insurance company dealt with the hospital that accepted my insurance plan at the time - Blue Cross-Blue Shield.  Doctors were paid by the medical coverage of my insurance plans, also with a small deductible.

The difference today is I'm now a senior on Medicare insurance furnished by the Federal government.  But Medicare A and B plans covered these services also with a small deductible.  I just have to be careful that the doctors and facilities are covered by Medicare.  So that's the first question I ask when I get a new doctor to find out that they haven't opted out of Medicare. 

Separately, I admit the American health system is screwed up.  It's been made a mess by our government like so many other things they screw up. If you're happy with your Canadian health care, that fine.  Not everyone shoots the same camera but is happy with theirs and what it produces.

Look, I'm kind of done with this. You can choose to believe whatever you want. If you think the system under which you live is the best and makes you happy, I'm happy for you. What I'm sick and tired of is your making spectacularly ignorant claims about other systems based on well-documented disinformation campaigns on the part of US health insurance company lobbyests who did a multi-year full court press telling people like you how awful other countries are. That's between them and you, if you choose to believe them, that's your own decision. When you repeatedly come on here saying stupid bullshit such as the Canadian government is somehow determining my health care instead of me and my doctors, then I'm going to call you on it. Believe whatever you want, but stop peddling crap about things that you don't know anything about.

If you think a system that allows a hospital to charge $30,000 for one night's stay to people who are "out of network" and that behind the scenes negotiations among who knows how many parties is efficient and that somehow their "competition" is providing you with good health care, you're free to believe that. But I'm free to think you're being played.

I repeat, you don't know the first thing about how universal health care is provided in other countries, and when things have been explained to you in the past, you have refused to take any of that information in.

Please don't reply to this with yet another moronic homily about how government is bad and that competition cures all. Your insurance company is laughing at you.

[James Clark]

Sorry, but I don't think the government looks out for my interests more than I do.  Leaving my health and life in the care of bureaucrats who only care about their own pensions does not strike me as a way to help myself.  Before Obamacare, around 85% of American had their own insurance paid for my themselves or their employers and were happy with it.  Currently I'm on Medicare.  Unfortunately, not all doctors are covered by it.  They have opted out of Medicare and will not accept payments.  These are the better doctors.  So if you want to hire one of them, it has to be paid personally out of your own pocket.  Had I still had private insurance, I could have had the insurance company pay for some of those costs. Also, government may limit certain treatment in the future.  I;m reminded how a BRit here who lived in Spain lost his government health insurance if he stayed in Spain.  If he had private insurance, he could have kept the insurance.  Having control of your care is better than letting the government "care" for you.

You know you can still get private insurance, right?  Heck, I bet NJ has one of the better ACA exchanges. I assume you also know that the ACA exchanges are still setting you up with private insurers, right?  Also, the Brit in question lost his EU coverage because the morons in the UK decided to LEAVE THE EU.

[TechTalk]

For those that rely on rigid ideology to inform their views, the truth is consistent, always, with their ideology. New information that conflicts with it is never fully comprehended or digested. That indigestion causes the same circular arguments to come belching forth at regular intervals.

[Chris Kern]

Currently I'm on Medicare.  Unfortunately, not all doctors are covered by it.  They have opted out of Medicare and will not accept payments.  These are the better doctors.  So if you want to hire one of them, it has to be paid personally out of your own pocket.  Had I still had private insurance, I could have had the insurance company pay for some of those costs.

You know you can still get private insurance, right?  Heck, I bet NJ has one of the better ACA exchanges. I assume you also know that the ACA exchanges are still setting you up with private insurers, right?

Exactly.  And he also either doesn't know, or chooses to ignore for purposes of his rants against the federal government's medical programs, that Medicare Part B* is a voluntary insurance program.  There's no requirement that anyone participate.  Neither my wife nor I do since we have private insurance policies that provide comparable and sometimes superior coverage, albeit at higher premium charges.

―――
*For those of you outside the United States, Medicare is the government-managed insurance program for residents who are 65 and older.  Everyone who was included in the program while they were working (which, by law, is almost every resident) receives Medicare Part A, which covers hospital inpatient charges.  Medicare Part B is a voluntary program which covers outpatient services, such as doctors' fees and medical tests, and which, like private insurance, charges the recipient premiums.  Part B is voluntary, as are some other Medicare coverage options.  Medicare Part A is funded entirely by individuals who are currently working through a so-called "payroll tax."  The other Medicare options are funded by a combination of the payroll tax and the premiums paid by recipients.  (The U.S. federal government also provides medical services to military veterans and poor residents; these are funded through general tax revenues.)

[PeterAit]

Here are some facts.

Green Energy Makes German Electricity Prices Highest In Europe
Why do so few countries in Europe follow Germany in green electricity? The answer could lie in electricity prices:

Not only has electricity gotten expensive in these countries, but the supply is highly unreliable.
...
Germany’s massive 110 GW of installed solar and wind energy capacity produced next to nothing over a period of five days earlier this month, not even coming close to meeting the country’s demand:
...
300,000 households lose power: Fortunately, there were fossil and nuclear power plants available to keep the power grid from collapsing.

But there’s a problem: It’s very uneconomical to operate these conventional plants only part-time. The added costs end up being borne by the consumer.

And due to the high electricity rates, every year tens of thousands of German households see their power cut off due to unpaid electricity bills, read here and here.
https://climatechangedispatch.com/green-energy-makes-german-electricity-prices-highest-in-europe/

Climate Change Dispatch? Seriously? Have you looked into this web site? It's almost as bad as Tucker Carlson. MediaFactCheck rates them Moderate on the conspiracy scale, "Quackery" on the pseudoscience scale, and Low on the Factual Reporting scale. Their conclusion? "Overall, we rate Climate Change Dispatch as a Conspiracy and Quackery level Pseudoscience source for the promotion of false or misleading information that is not in line with the consensus of science."

Seriously, Alan, how can you pay the slightest attention to this sort of "news" source?

[dreed]

Climate Change Dispatch? Seriously? Have you looked into this web site? It's almost as bad as Tucker Carlson. MediaFactCheck rates them Moderate on the conspiracy scale, "Quackery" on the pseudoscience scale, and Low on the Factual Reporting scale. Their conclusion? "Overall, we rate Climate Change Dispatch as a Conspiracy and Quackery level Pseudoscience source for the promotion of false or misleading information that is not in line with the consensus of science."

Seriously, Alan, how can you pay the slightest attention to this sort of "news" source?

Because it agrees with what he thinks.

[digitaldog]

Because it agrees with what he thinks.

That requires actual thinking. 
It agrees with his conformation bias.

[Alan Klein]

You know you can still get private insurance, right?  Heck, I bet NJ has one of the better ACA exchanges. I assume you also know that the ACA exchanges are still setting you up with private insurers, right?  Also, the Brit in question lost his EU coverage because the morons in the UK decided to LEAVE THE EU.

Why would I pay more for insurance than I'm paying now?  The government took without my approval (currently 1.45% of my salaries) and the same from my employers for 50+ years for Medicare.  I'm not as rich as Chris who can afford to pay extra for private.    So my wife and I are stuck with Medicare.

Regarding the Brit and EU, the point is it was the government that changed the policy.  Who cares what the reason is?  Had there been no national health care, and the high costs of it, he would have had money available for private insurance all along which he would just continue now that England pulled out of the EU.  So, now he's stuck having to move back to England or spend private money like Chris to get private health care so he can stay in Spain. 

[Alan Klein]

Climate Change Dispatch? Seriously? Have you looked into this web site? It's almost as bad as Tucker Carlson. MediaFactCheck rates them Moderate on the conspiracy scale, "Quackery" on the pseudoscience scale, and Low on the Factual Reporting scale. Their conclusion? "Overall, we rate Climate Change Dispatch as a Conspiracy and Quackery level Pseudoscience source for the promotion of false or misleading information that is not in line with the consensus of science."

Seriously, Alan, how can you pay the slightest attention to this sort of "news" source?

Peter, The high cost of electricity in Germany due to green energy production is a well established fact.  You can check your own sources to confirm it.