Poll

Who do you think will be sworn in as President on Jan. 21?

Biden
- 14 (66.7%)
Trump
- 7 (33.3%)

Total Members Voted: 21

Voting closed: November 02, 2020, 06:25:59 pm


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Author Topic: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)  (Read 257084 times)

faberryman

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #3700 on: October 31, 2020, 02:17:15 pm »

I go back to the old activist days.  I was involved with the grape boycott when in college.  It worked for the farm workers.

I thought boycotts were a generally accepted political activity.
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Alan Klein

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #3701 on: October 31, 2020, 02:21:09 pm »

Which of course doesn't have anything to do with what we are talking about, but that is to be expected.
Sure it does.  This thread is about the presidential election.  And Biden was VP in Obama's administration.  So Obama's game playing washes off on his Veep.  What did he know and when did he know it? It's fair game.

Alan Klein

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #3702 on: October 31, 2020, 02:22:36 pm »

...and I yours.  We both have exceptional taste.
Well, not about political candidates.  :)

Alan Klein

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #3703 on: October 31, 2020, 02:29:55 pm »

I go back to the old activist days.  I was involved with the grape boycott when in college.  It worked for the farm workers. 
Interesting that during the grape controversy a few decades ago, Mexican American Cesar Chavez the farm workers union organizer, was against Mexican nationals illegally coming across the border.  He knew they competed with American workers of Mexican descent.  He would have approved of the wall.  Trump would have made him Secretary of Agriculture.  :)

faberryman

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #3704 on: October 31, 2020, 02:33:19 pm »

Sure it does.  This thread is about the presidential election.  And Biden was VP in Obama's administration.  So Obama's game playing washes off on his Veep.  What did he know and when did he know it? It's fair game.

You are absolutely right. And since Obama is a human being, and some human beings make ironing boards, let's talk about ironing boards. My wife's ironing board has green legs and a silver gray ironing surface. It even has this adjustment lever so you can raise and lower the ironing surface. Yours? I wonder about Michelle's ironing board. I don't think Melania has an ironing board, but maybe she does. I hope Trump doesn't start hawking ironing boards from the Resolute Desk. Not that is would be illegal. The Hatch Act doesn't apply to the president. Speaking about illegal, I wonder if Hunter Biden or Joe Biden did anything illegal. See, it's all relevant to the topic of the thread.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2020, 07:50:12 pm by faberryman »
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Craig Lamson

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #3705 on: October 31, 2020, 02:36:50 pm »

I go back to the old activist days.  I was involved with the grape boycott when in college.  It worked for the farm workers.

What do you think your Goya boycott is going to actually accomplish?  You are not protesting poor pay or working conditions, you are protesign someones opinion.  Thats really powerful stuff.  Who will your boycott actually hurt, the company owner or the workers?  Typical liberal sillyness.
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Craig Lamson

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #3706 on: October 31, 2020, 02:37:57 pm »

I thought boycotts were a generally accepted political activity.

Yes they are and some like the Goya boycott are really stupid. 
« Last Edit: October 31, 2020, 03:54:31 pm by Craig Lamson »
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faberryman

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #3707 on: October 31, 2020, 03:28:41 pm »

Yes they are snd some like the Goya boycott are really stupid.

Some are and some aren't, and people differ on which is which.  You really don't know until you see how the boycott works out. In this case, I think I remember reading that when the Goya customers who agreed with Goya guy's political stance heard about the boycott, they bought a big supply of Goya products, which more than offset the loss of sales to former Goya customers who didn't agree with Goya guy's political stance, so the boycott actually ending up increasing Goya's overall sales. Sometimes that happens. Sometimes the opposite happens. I think some boycotts have achieved good things, but I may be wrong.

Under no circumstances am I going to buy a My Pillow pillow, stupid or not. Sometimes it feels good to do something irrational. As long as you keep it at the beans and pillows level, I think everything will be okay.

I was thinking. Have you ever flipped the bird? Doesn't really achieve very much and there is always the chance you will get beat up. It is probably irrational, but sometimes you just have to do it. It might even be therapeutic. Maybe boycotting Goya beans and My Pillow pillows is therapeutic, maybe not to you, but to someone else. Then it would not be stupid. At least that is my opinion.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2020, 08:52:19 pm by faberryman »
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JoeKitchen

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #3708 on: October 31, 2020, 03:58:28 pm »

Actually, it does.

No it does not. 

The Dems would insist that Harris then would be sworn in, and the Republicans would insist the vote goes to the house while keeping Harris as VP.  But it does not specify what you do if the president elect dies before being sworn in. 

If you disagree, please cite the passage. 
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TechTalk

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #3709 on: October 31, 2020, 04:37:38 pm »

Actually if Biden wins and dies before being sworn in, the constitution has no method on how to deal with that.

Actually, it does.

No it does not. 

The Dems would insist that Harris then would be sworn in, and the Republicans would insist the vote goes to the house while keeping Harris as VP.  But it does not specify what you do if the president elect dies before being sworn in. 

If you disagree, please cite the passage.

It isn't like the United States Constitution is some lengthy document; it is all of about 17-pages long—including all of the amendments. But since you won't look it up yourself...

https://constitutioncenter.org/media/files/constitution.pdf

20th Amendment - Section 3

If, at the time fixed for the beginning of the term of the President, the President elect shall have died, the Vice President elect shall become President. If a President shall not have been chosen before the time fixed for the beginning of his term, or if the President elect shall have failed to qualify, then the Vice President elect shall act as President until a President shall have qualified; and the Congress may by law provide for the case wherein neither a President elect nor a Vice President shall have qualified, declaring who shall then act as President, or the manner in which one who is to act shall be selected, and such person shall act accordingly until a President or Vice President shall have qualified.
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Alan Klein

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #3710 on: October 31, 2020, 05:00:14 pm »

Some are and some aren't, and people differ on which is which.  You really don't know until you see how the boycott works out. In this case, I think I remember reading that when the Goya customers who agreed with Goya guy's political stance heard about the boycott, they bought a big supply of Goya products, which more than offset the loss of sales to former Goya customers who didn't agree with Goya guy's political stance, so the boycott actually ending up increasing Goya's overall sales. Sometimes that happens. Sometimes the opposite happens. I think some boycotts have achieved good things, but I may be wrong.

Under no circumstances am I going to buy a My Pillow, stupid or not. Sometimes it feels good to do something irrational. As long as you keep it at the beans and pillows level, I think everything will be okay.

I was thinking. Have you ever flipped the bird? Doesn't really achieve very much and there is always the chance you will get beat up. It is probably irrational, but sometimes you just have to do it. It might even be therapeutic. Maybe boycotting Goya beans and My Pillow pillows is therapeutic, maybe not to you, but to someone else.
Staying away from too many beans is therapeutic, if you know what I mean.

Craig Lamson

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #3711 on: October 31, 2020, 05:01:43 pm »

Some are and some aren't, and people differ on which is which.  You really don't know until you see how the boycott works out. In this case, I think I remember reading that when the Goya customers who agreed with Goya guy's political stance heard about the boycott, they bought a big supply of Goya products, which more than offset the loss of sales to former Goya customers who didn't agree with Goya guy's political stance, so the boycott actually ending up increasing Goya's overall sales. Sometimes that happens. Sometimes the opposite happens. I think some boycotts have achieved good things, but I may be wrong.

Under no circumstances am I going to buy a My Pillow, stupid or not. Sometimes it feels good to do something irrational. As long as you keep it at the beans and pillows level, I think everything will be okay.

I was thinking. Have you ever flipped the bird? Doesn't really achieve very much and there is always the chance you will get beat up. It is probably irrational, but sometimes you just have to do it. It might even be therapeutic. Maybe boycotting Goya beans and My Pillow pillows is therapeutic, maybe not to you, but to someone else.

Heres my point again.  In the case of Goya, what exactly is the thing the boycott might change?  A man stated his opinion.  If he's a man of principle its unlikely you will get him to change his opinion.  So what is gained?  Maybe cost him a bit if money ( or make him some more)?  I doubt that this boycott will hurt him financially.  Maybe a bit , but men of that kind of wealth see their fortunes rise and fall all the time.  It will have little effect. 

It's simply political theater, just like advertiser boycotts of shows like Tucker.  Those boycotts likely hurt the advertisers more than Tucker of Fox, or they simply switched time slots to other Fox shows.  Likely too many eyeballs for an advertiser to miss.  Placate the libs and keep talking to the reps. 

But you are correct about flippin ghe bird.  I rarely do it and if my wife is around she consistanly reminds me its a futile gesture that accomplished nothing...kind of like boycotting Goya.
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Peter McLennan

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #3712 on: October 31, 2020, 05:09:23 pm »

It isn't like the United States Constitution is some lengthy document; it is all of about 17-pages long—including all of the amendments. But since you won't look it up yourself...

https://constitutioncenter.org/media/files/constitution.pdf

20th Amendment - Section 3

If, at the time fixed for the beginning of the term of the President, the President elect shall have died, the Vice President elect shall become President. If a President shall not have been chosen before the time fixed for the beginning of his term, or if the President elect shall have failed to qualify, then the Vice President elect shall act as President until a President shall have qualified; and the Congress may by law provide for the case wherein neither a President elect nor a Vice President shall have qualified, declaring who shall then act as President, or the manner in which one who is to act shall be selected, and such person shall act accordingly until a President or Vice President shall have qualified.


Aaaaaaannnnnd, silence from <insert usual suspects here>.
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Alan Klein

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #3713 on: October 31, 2020, 05:33:11 pm »

Quote
It isn't like the United States Constitution is some lengthy document; it is all of about 17-pages long—including all of the amendments. But since you won't look it up yourself...

https://constitutioncenter.org/media/files/constitution.pdf

20th Amendment - Section 3

If, at the time fixed for the beginning of the term of the President, the President elect shall have died, the Vice President elect shall become President. If a President shall not have been chosen before the time fixed for the beginning of his term, or if the President elect shall have failed to qualify, then the Vice President elect shall act as President until a President shall have qualified; and the Congress may by law provide for the case wherein neither a President elect nor a Vice President shall have qualified, declaring who shall then act as President, or the manner in which one who is to act shall be selected, and such person shall act accordingly until a President or Vice President shall have qualified.

So let's see if I got this right. On swearing-in day on Jan 21, 2021, if a president had not been chosen because they're still counting chads or waiting for the US Postal Service to deliver all the mail-in ballots, the Congress can select an acting president until such time as a real president is elected or selected.  Of course, if the congress is split with each party in charge of one of the two houses, that won't happen because they won't agree.  So they agree to disagree and figure out that they'll have a mini election, lets say selecting two people and letting the electors from all the states vote for the winner. But here's where I'm confused.  So he or she acts as president until when?  The next election four years later?  Or does Congress set up a full election right away by passing a constitutional amendment?  The word qualify is throwing me off. 

TechTalk

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #3714 on: October 31, 2020, 06:41:02 pm »

So let's see if I got this right.

You don't. You don't have any of it right.

On swearing-in day on Jan 21, 2021

January 20th

if a president had not been chosen because they're still counting chads or waiting for the US Postal Service to deliver all the mail-in ballots

That's not how any of this works.

the Congress can select an acting president until such time as a real president is elected or selected.

Why not research it and let us know? Oh... never mind.

See 20th Amendment above - If a President shall not have been chosen before the time fixed for the beginning of his term, or if the President elect shall have failed to qualify, then the Vice President elect shall act as President until a President shall have qualified.

OR

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/3/19

3 U.S. Code § 19 - Vacancy in offices of both President and Vice President; officers eligible to act

(a)

(1) If, by reason of death, resignation, removal from office, inability, or failure to qualify, there is neither a President nor Vice President to discharge the powers and duties of the office of President, then the Speaker of the House of Representatives shall, upon his resignation as Speaker and as Representative in Congress, act as President.

(b) If, at the time when under subsection (a) of this section a Speaker is to begin the discharge of the powers and duties of the office of President, there is no Speaker, or the Speaker fails to qualify as Acting President, then the President pro tempore of the Senate shall, upon his resignation as President pro tempore and as Senator, act as President.

(c) An individual acting as President under subsection (a) or subsection (b) of this section shall continue to act until the expiration of the then current Presidential term, except that—

(1) if his discharge of the powers and duties of the office is founded in whole or in part on the failure of both the President-elect and the Vice-President-elect to qualify, then he shall act only until a President or Vice President qualifies; and

(2) if his discharge of the powers and duties of the office is founded in whole or in part on the inability of the President or Vice President, then he shall act only until the removal of the disability of one of such individuals.

So they agree to disagree and figure out that they'll have a mini election, lets say selecting two people and letting the electors from all the states vote for the winner.

Just shoot me! I can't take anymore!

Or does Congress set up a full election right away by passing a constitutional amendment?

Just imagine that I have a stunned blank stare with my mouth hanging open at this point.

The word qualify is throwing me off. 

35-years of age. 14-years a resident within the United States. A citizen by birth. Alive and not incapacitated. Elected under the Constitutional provisions and applicable federal laws.

Do some research of your own!!
« Last Edit: October 31, 2020, 08:22:07 pm by TechTalk »
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faberryman

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #3715 on: October 31, 2020, 06:44:24 pm »

Do some research of your own!!

It is much easier to yabber on endlessly about things you know little or nothing about, using specious reasoning, and say it is your opinion, and it is as valid as anyone else's. It is particularly galling when such persons have read a couple of articles on the internet, which they may or may not have understood, and so consider themselves experts, and expect everyone to take them seriously, and treat their opinions, often couched as fact until pressed, with respect.

My next post will be about particle physics. I read about it in Wikipedia last month while I was sitting on the can.  Do you know why I chose Wikipedia as my go-to source? All the articles in the scientific journals were incomprehensible. Scientists need to learn how to write better.
« Last Edit: November 01, 2020, 07:44:57 am by faberryman »
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Alan Goldhammer

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #3716 on: October 31, 2020, 07:16:41 pm »

Here is a paper just released by a group at Stanford who quantify the number of COVID-19 cases arising from President Trump's campaign rallies:  https://sebotero.github.io/papers/COVIDrallies_10_30_2000.pdf  More than 30,000 cases arose from the rallies.  Good thing we are turning the corner on the virus.
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Alan Goldhammer

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #3717 on: October 31, 2020, 07:20:19 pm »

What do you think your Goya boycott is going to actually accomplish? 
It's pretty simple; I don't support companies whose CEO makes political statements.  They should be non-partisan and only focus on running the business.  That the Goya CEO was fawning over the President was wrong to me and I decided to stop buying their product.  If you look at the CEOs of most major American corporations they stay out of the political limelight.  You may have a different opinion and that is fine but it doesn't entitle you to call mine stupid which you also did.
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Peter McLennan

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #3718 on: October 31, 2020, 08:02:25 pm »

Somebody just sent me this. It comes under the heading of "Good Writing", discussed here recently.

Nate White

“Why do some British people not like Donald Trump?” Nate White, an articulate and witty writer from England wrote the following response:

A few things spring to mind. Trump lacks certain qualities which the British traditionally esteem. For instance, he has no class, no charm, no coolness, no credibility, no compassion, no wit, no warmth, no wisdom, no subtlety, no sensitivity, no self-awareness, no humility, no honour and no grace – all qualities, funnily enough, with which his predecessor Mr. Obama was generously blessed. So for us, the stark contrast does rather throw Trump’s limitations into embarrassingly sharp relief.

Plus, we like a laugh. And while Trump may be laughable, he has never once said anything wry, witty or even faintly amusing – not once, ever. I don’t say that rhetorically, I mean it quite literally: not once, not ever. And that fact is particularly disturbing to the British sensibility – for us, to lack humour is almost inhuman. But with Trump, it’s a fact. He doesn’t even seem to understand what a joke is – his idea of a joke is a crass comment, an illiterate insult, a casual act of cruelty.

Trump is a troll. And like all trolls, he is never funny and he never laughs; he only crows or jeers. And scarily, he doesn’t just talk in crude, witless insults – he actually thinks in them. His mind is a simple bot-like algorithm of petty prejudices and knee-jerk nastiness.

There is never any under-layer of irony, complexity, nuance or depth. It’s all surface. Some Americans might see this as refreshingly upfront. Well, we don’t. We see it as having no inner world, no soul. And in Britain we traditionally side with David, not Goliath. All our heroes are plucky underdogs: Robin Hood, Dick Whittington, Oliver Twist. Trump is neither plucky, nor an underdog. He is the exact opposite of that. He’s not even a spoiled rich-boy, or a greedy fat-cat. He’s more a fat white slug. A Jabba the Hutt of privilege.

And worse, he is that most unforgivable of all things to the British: a bully. That is, except when he is among bullies; then he suddenly transforms into a snivelling sidekick instead. There are unspoken rules to this stuff – the Queensberry rules of basic decency – and he breaks them all. He punches downwards – which a gentleman should, would, could never do – and every blow he aims is below the belt. He particularly likes to kick the vulnerable or voiceless – and he kicks them when they are down.

So the fact that a significant minority – perhaps a third – of Americans look at what he does, listen to what he says, and then think ‘Yeah, he seems like my kind of guy’ is a matter of some confusion and no little distress to British people, given that:

• Americans are supposed to be nicer than us, and mostly are.

• You don’t need a particularly keen eye for detail to spot a few flaws in the man.

This last point is what especially confuses and dismays British people, and many other people too; his faults seem pretty bloody hard to miss. After all, it’s impossible to read a single tweet, or hear him speak a sentence or two, without staring deep into the abyss. He turns being artless into an art form; he is a Picasso of pettiness; a Shakespeare of shit. His faults are fractal: even his flaws have flaws, and so on ad infinitum. God knows there have always been stupid people in the world, and plenty of nasty people too. But rarely has stupidity been so nasty, or nastiness so stupid. He makes Nixon look trustworthy and George W look smart. In fact, if Frankenstein decided to make a monster assembled entirely from human flaws – he would make a Trump.

And a remorseful Doctor Frankenstein would clutch out big clumpfuls of hair and scream in anguish: ‘My God… what… have… I… created?' If being a twat was a TV show, Trump would be the boxed set.

Nathaniel Ridgway White was an award-winning journalist known for his business and financial reporting at The Christian Science Monitor. He received the second and third Gerald Loeb Awards for Newspapers, the most prestigious award for business journalism. Wikipedia
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Craig Lamson

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #3719 on: October 31, 2020, 08:18:05 pm »

It's pretty simple; I don't support companies whose CEO makes political statements.  They should be non-partisan and only focus on running the business.  That the Goya CEO was fawning over the President was wrong to me and I decided to stop buying their product.  If you look at the CEOs of most major American corporations they stay out of the political limelight.  You may have a different opinion and that is fine but it doesn't entitle you to call mine stupid which you also did.

So exactly who do you buy from then?  And do political donations count?
« Last Edit: October 31, 2020, 08:26:14 pm by Craig Lamson »
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