US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)

Biden

14 (66.7%)

Trump

7 (33.3%)

Total Members Voted: 21

Voting closed: November 02, 2020, 06:25:59 pm

[JoeKitchen]

The evidence is coming from genetic researchers from all over the world.  You can continue to believe in conspiracy theories that are voiced on alternative media outlets as it is a free country.  You can chose to follow where the science leads us or not as that is your right as well.  You can even choose not to believe in evolution.

Alan, you're either deliberately or cluelessly leaving out that everyone agrees this virus developed naturally.  The question is, was it being studied in that lab and then, due to incompetence, escape? 

If this is the case, all the research in the world does not mean a damn since, regardless, it would still look like a naturally formed virus.  The only research that matters is what can be found on the ground, and the Chinese government is not letting anyone in.  That is just a little too suspicious for me and anyone else with common sense. 

I also find it to be a little peculiar that (1) this lab, which publicized that they were studying many different corona viruses from bats, was located so close to ground zero and (2) the market this supposedly came from does not sell bat. 

[Robert Roaldi]

Decisions like this should be discussed and voted upon by the people and their representatives, not dictated to us from those who are not accountable.

There can be lots wrong with an activist court, I guess, but people keep bringing cases to them so there must be a reason it continues to happen.

The slow and methodical progression of turning corporations into "persons", except with lots fewer responsibilities but lots of the advantages, has been going on for 100 years and more. It led to that "citizens united" thing (I think that was the name). Controlling what corporations can and can't do seems like a natural thing for lawmakers to pay attention to but I guess it was handier to let lawyers battle it out amongst themselves at the Supreme Court.

[JoeKitchen]

There can be lots wrong with an activist court, I guess, but people keep bringing cases to them so there must be a reason it continues to happen.

The slow and methodical progression of turning corporations into "persons", except with lots fewer responsibilities but lots of the advantages, has been going on for 100 years and more. It led to that "citizens united" thing (I think that was the name). Controlling what corporations can and can't do seems like a natural thing for lawmakers to pay attention to but I guess it was handier to let lawyers battle it out amongst themselves at the Supreme Court.

The 2002 congress made a law that violated the first amendment.  The SCOTUS did its job, interpreted the constitution and struck it down. 

I might add that this disproportionately benefited Democrats if you look at "dark money" contributions they get the majority of.  Even so, I do agree with the ruling. 

[Craig Lamson]

It makes President Trump look even worse!  This was really a dumb decision by the White House.

Is that your opinion Alan?

[Craig Lamson]

I doubt he would lie to the American public.

Biden would never lie to the American people?  Surely you jest.  Now did he make these wrong claims willfully or is he just stupid?

https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/list/?category=&ruling=false&speaker=joe-biden

[Alan Klein]

#2997!! (But you know what I meant!) Late-age dyslexia...!

It took me ten minutes to find it the first time.  I'm not looking again.  You only get one chance. 

[faberryman]

He did what he could do with Carrier, and I'll add thats just my opinion just the keep the forum censors happy. As for the rest, he does not own the companies and he can't make laws to keep them here without Congress. At least he makes some noise about the issue.  Obama told us this was the new normal.  BTW, Indiana currently has an unemployment rate of 6.2 with puts 19th in the US.

That kind or reminds of what happened around the kitchen table when I was growing up. I'll change the details around to save myself from self-incrimination. It is a constitutional right you know. Anyway here goes:

Dad: Well, tell me how you did today on that math test you were studying for last night?
Son: Terrific, I aced it. Got all the answers right. It was the highest grade in the class.
Dad: Gee son, I am really proud of you. Good work. You are really becoming a responsible young man.
Mom: Son, I was cleaning out your backpack and found this. You got a C- on your math test.
Son: Well, I did the best job I could. At least I tried. Besides, Billy flunked it.
Dad: Do you remember when you were young I told you the story about the little boy who cried wolf?
Son: Sure, you told me that story a couple of times.
Dad: Do you remember the moral of that story?
Son: Everybody lies so get over it?

Well, I won't bore you with the rest of dialog, but rarely was that the end of the conversation. Sometimes there were even consequences.

So after I went through that little scene more times than I would care to admit, certainly more times than was necessary for any rational human being, I figured out the best thing to do is just come clean, work harder, and try to make improvement. My parents noticed this. So much later, when I was 16, and had had my drivers license for a couple of weeks, and drove over to the camera store to get some film, and some lady backed into me in the parking lot and damaged the car, and when I went home and told my dad what happened and said wasn't my fault, he believed me, because it was the truth, and he knew he could trust me.

Maybe some people will say the reason why I take offense at Trump lying day in and day out, even about stuff that doesn't really matter, is that my parents traumatized me as a child. My therapist doesn't think so, but anything is possible.

[Alan Klein]

That, Alan, typifies the difference in our approach to evidence. When it's lacking, I wait to reach conclusions. You, in contrast, make bold, factual assertions and wriggle like a worm on a hook when challenged. You've done it repeatedly. It's depressing.

Jeremy

Well, the western nations tried to appease Hitler too.  They trusted him as well. Peace in our time. 

[Alan Klein]

Here is one for Craig Lamson and I don't think it is fake news.  Remember all the noise about the closure of a Indiana Carrier plant and the moving of jobs to Mexico?  President Trump jawboned into this one and claimed he was saving lots of good jobs.  The facts present a different picture according to thisNew York Times story.

"This year alone, Indiana employers have sent more jobs to Mexico, China, India and other foreign countries than were saved at Carrier. Without headlines or presidential notice, at least 17 companies -- names like Vibracoustic, Molnlycke Health Care, Allura, Altex, Stanley Black & Decker, Dometic, Johnson Controls and Horizon Terra -- have closed plants or otherwise reduced employment in Indiana and moved jobs abroad, according to U.S. Department of Labor filings."

What an inconvenient fact for the President who is saving high paying jobs.

At least Trump is trying. He can't reverse decades of American leadership stupidity in four years. Biden wants to eliminate jobs in the oil industry, around 6 million. He want to add more regulations that will make us even less competitive pushing jobs to Mexico and elsewhere.  He wants to get rid of tariffs on Chinese goods so they can take more of our jobs. How is Biden going to help?  He'll make it worse.  What would you recommend?

[LesPalenik]

Well, the western nations tried to appease Hitler too.  They trusted him as well. Peace in our time.

Alan, I agree with your comparison, but you are treading on a dangerous territory. I got scolded for comparing Alan Dershowitz to the lowly Reich minister of propaganda.

[Craig Lamson]

That kind or reminds of what happened around the kitchen table when I was growing up. I'll change the details around to save myself from self-incrimination. It is a constitutional right you know. Anyway here goes:

Dad: Well, tell me how you did today on that math test you were studying for last night?
Son: Terrific, I aced it. Got all the answers right. It was the highest grade in the class.
Dad: Gee son, I am really proud of you. Good work. You are really becoming a responsible young man.
Mom: Son, I was cleaning out your backpack and found this. You got a C- on your math test.
Son: Well, I did the best job I could. At least I tried.
Dad: Do you remember when you were young I told you about the little boy who cried wolf?
Son: Sure, you told me that story a couple of times.
Dad: Do you remember the moral of that story?
Son: Everybody lies so get over it? Besides, Billy flunked it.

Well, I won't bore you with the rest of dialog, but rarely was that the end of the conversation. Sometimes there were even consequences.

Why would it remind you of that?  Trump said he was going to save jobs from going overseas, and he has.  The best I can remember he never said he was going to save all of them.  And he hasn't.  No one can, unless Congress makes some law making it illegal and even then I don't think that would pass muster with the SCOTUS.

Again I'll ask what does Biden says he will do?  We know he wantes to eliminate a whole bunch of oil jobs, as he "transitions" away from oil.  He makes some vague promises about millions of good paying green jobs but how well did they do with that during Obama? Solyndra?

[Alan Klein]

The evidence is coming from genetic researchers from all over the world.  You can continue to believe in conspiracy theories that are voiced on alternative media outlets as it is a free country.  You can chose to follow where the science leads us or not as that is your right as well.  You can even choose not to believe in evolution.

Bringing evolution into it is just a cheap shot.  Even if China isn't guilty of deliberately spreading it, they are still culpable of criminal negligence.  They knew what was going on and allowed travel to the rest of the world while stopping travel in their own country.  They delayed for six weeks about advising the world of the true nature of the virus. They tried to hide it and deceive the world.  Why defend them?

[Alan Klein]

There can be lots wrong with an activist court, I guess, but people keep bringing cases to them so there must be a reason it continues to happen.

The slow and methodical progression of turning corporations into "persons", except with lots fewer responsibilities but lots of the advantages, has been going on for 100 years and more. It led to that "citizens united" thing (I think that was the name). Controlling what corporations can and can't do seems like a natural thing for lawmakers to pay attention to but I guess it was handier to let lawyers battle it out amongst themselves at the Supreme Court.

You haven't heard a negative word from Democrats about the Supreme COurt Citizens United decision any more.  That's because corporations are giving them more money than Republicans.  They're a bunch of phonies.

Also, Citizens United did not only address corporations.  It also addressed unions.  After all neither corporations nor unions are people.  They represent people.  In the case of corporations, they represent employees and stockholders,  who are persons.  If a corporation spends money for legislation to help it, it helps its employees and stockholders, who are persons.  The employee's job is protected.  Likewise, when a union gives money politically, it protects the interests of the workers, who are persons too.  What's good for unions is good for corporations.  It was the right decision.  IF it went the other way, the court would have taken away the guaranteed constitutional right of employees, stockholders and union workers to petition the government about their grievances.

[faberryman]

Why would it remind you of that?  Trump said he was going to save jobs from going overseas, and he has.  The best I can remember he never said he was going to save all of them.  And he hasn't.  No one can, unless Congress makes some law making it illegal and even then I don't think that would pass muster with the SCOTUS.

If that were all he said, I wouldn't have a problem with it. But he said much more than that on several occasions that wasn't true.

Again I'll ask what does Biden says he will do?  We know he wantes to eliminate a whole bunch of oil jobs, as he "transitions" away from oil.  He makes some vague promises about millions of good paying green jobs but how well did they do with that during Obama? Solyndra?

Well, that just sounds like a variation on the old "Billy flunked it" excuse. I didn't learn it was the logical fallacy of whataboutism until later.

[Craig Lamson]

If that was all he she aid, I wouldn't have a problem with it. But he said much much more than that on several occasions that wasn't true.

Well, that just sounds like a variation on the old Billy flunked it excuse.

Like what?

[Alan Klein]

Alan, I agree with your comparison, but you are treading on a dangerous territory. I got scolded for comparing Alan Dershowitz to the lowly Reich minister of propaganda.

I wasn't directing this to anyone in particular.  If it came out that way, then I apologize.  My point is we (the Royal we) have to start getting tough with China before it's too late.  They've taken the South China Sea militarizing those islands and stealing property belonging to their neighbors PI, Vietnam, etc, they threaten Taiwan, they broke their agreement with Great Britain regarding Hong Kong.  They lied about Covid and steal the world's intellectual property and patents.  If we treat them like we did Germany before the war, it only invites war.  Nature abhors a vacuum. 

[Alan Klein]

If that were all he said, I wouldn't have a problem with it. But he said much more than that on several occasions that wasn't true.

...

That sounds like an opinion.  Do you have proof?

[faberryman]

Like what?

Well, I could go out and collect all the quotes and lay it out for you chapter and verse, but you would just rationalize it, and I don't feel like making the effort. You go on believing that Trump tells the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth every time he opens his mouth if it makes you feel better. I know you know it is not true. You just won't admit it.

[PeterAit]

Biden wants to eliminate jobs in the oil industry, around 6 million.

Alan meant to say 1.1 million, the actual figure. Anyway it's irrelevant--what society would continue producing and using something that is harmful to the entire world just to save some jobs?

https://www.usenergyjobs.org/2019-report

[Alan Klein]

Well, I could go out and collect all the quotes and lay it out for you chapter and verse, but you would just rationalize it, and I don't feel like making the effort. You go on believing that Trump tells the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth every time he opens his mouth if it makes you feel better. I know you know it is not true. You just won't admit it.

Yes he lies, embellishes, and sells, like a salesman. But on his core policies, he's kept faith with most of them and hasn't deceived his supporters.  Biden on the other hand has changed every belief he's ever had and lied about his record just to get elected.  Who knows where he stands, on anything.  So that's the choice.  My ballot, which I've already mailed in, did not have a box labelled Not Trump.