US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)

Biden

14 (66.7%)

Trump

7 (33.3%)

Total Members Voted: 21

Voting closed: November 02, 2020, 06:25:59 pm

[Alan Klein]

Colloquial or not, it's a silly, irresponsible and incorrect statement.  It's based on absolutely nothing except empty rhetoric and earns nothing but disrespect for the maker.  Somebody else pointed out that some 4% of California's water comes from the Colorado River.

The Sahara Desert is one of the earth's most desolate, hostile climates.  California is not and never could be anything like the Sahara.

If you insist on making stuff up (like Trump) and making wild-ass, easily-disproven statements (like Trump), expect to be called on it.

Southern California gets its water from the Colorado.  It's as hot there now as it is in the Sahara.  MAybe hotter. Parts of Southern Cal are over 110 degrees F (43C)  the last few days and will hit 115 degrees F (46C) next week.  You're playing word games.  People understand expressions.  But if you choose to ignore them like political reporters who hate Trump and read it like a legal contract, go right ahead and waste your time.  Others know what I'm talking about.   

[Peter McLennan]

You're playing word games.  People understand expressions.  But if you choose to ignore them like political reporters who hate Trump and read it like a legal contract, go right ahead and waste your time.  Others know what I'm talking about.   

Nope, they don't.  Don't expect that "others will know what I'm talking about".  Words have meaning and value. They are precision instruments. Mis-use them at your readers' peril.

For a perfect, recent example of the precision use of language (and delivery) read or listen to Obama's speech at the DNC.

In any case, if you're going to point to how right you were about California and water and deserts and heat, you missed the example of Death Valley, which recently posted the highest temperature ever recorded.  (a singular, highly suspect outlier from the 1800s notwithstanding)

[TechTalk]

Southern California is mainly desert including LA. They've had 100+ degree temps the last few days.  Their water supply is mainly from the Colorado River that feeds aqueducts.

LA is not a desert. It has a Mediterranean climate and is situated on a coastal plain surrounded by mountains forming a basin. It has the Los Angles and San Gabriel Rivers running thru it, and receives about 15 inches of rainfall per year. Before people started building LA and the surrounding cities and paving it over, the Los Angeles Basin collected water feeding into it from the surrounding hills and mountains and was a natural floodplain that fed springs and vast underground aquifers that provided plenty of water for plants and trees during the dry season. It created marshy wetlands, green grasslands and wooded areas with an abundance of oak and walnut trees. The abundance of water attracted the first natives, earliest European explorers and settlers, and later US settlers for agriculture and farming.

But for 20th century booming LA population and city growth, there was frequently far too much water due to unpredictable flooding from the Los Angeles River. After devastating floods in LA during the 1930s, the Army Corp of Engineers implemented a vast program to dam and divert, and finally controlling the remaining river by encasing it in concrete and redirecting. Today 92% of the water that naturally falls on or flows thru LA is diverted out to sea! Diverting the natural water supply combined with huge population growth has required LA to import the vast majority of it's water via the California Aqueduct which diverts water from the Sacramento–San Joaquin River Delta, the Los Angeles Aqueduct which diverts water from the Owens River, and the Colorado River Aqueduct. Only 11% of water needs are supplied from their underground aquifers. Earlier population growth reduced the water table and industrial waste and agricultural runoff has polluted much of the underground water. Efforts have begun to restore and replenish underground aquifers, but it will be expensive and take time.

Neither LA or Southern California generally are desert. East of the mountains surrounding Southern California metro areas there is desert area. The south-east corner of California contains a lot of desert, but I think everyone is aware of that fact. It doesn't mean that "Southern California is mainly desert including LA".

https://www.lamag.com/culturefiles/No, L.A. Is Not a Desert

https://www.marketplace.org/2016/01/13/down the drain/

[Alan Klein]

LA is not a desert. It has a Mediterranean climate and is situated on a coastal plain surrounded by mountains forming a basin. It has the Los Angles and San Gabriel Rivers running thru it, and receives about 15 inches of rainfall per year. Before people started building LA and the surrounding cities and paving it over, the Los Angeles Basin collected water feeding into it from the surrounding hills and mountains and was a natural floodplain that fed springs and vast underground aquifers that provided plenty of water for plants and trees during the dry season. It created marshy wetlands, green grasslands and wooded areas with an abundance of oak and walnut trees. The abundance of water attracted the first natives, earliest European explorers and settlers, and later US settlers for agriculture and farming.

But for 20th century booming LA population and city growth, there was frequently far too much water due to unpredictable flooding from the Los Angeles River. After devastating floods in LA during the 1930s, the Army Corp of Engineers implemented a vast program to dam and divert, and finally controlling the remaining river by encasing it in concrete and redirecting. Today 92% of the water that naturally falls on or flows thru LA is diverted out to sea! Diverting the natural water supply combined with huge population growth has required LA to import the vast majority of it's water via the California Aqueduct which diverts water from the Sacramento–San Joaquin River Delta, the Los Angeles Aqueduct which diverts water from the Owens River, and the Colorado River Aqueduct. Only 11% of water needs are supplied from their underground aquifers. Earlier population growth reduced the water table and industrial waste and agricultural runoff has polluted much of the underground water. Efforts have begun to restore and replenish underground aquifers, but it will be expensive and take time.

Neither LA or Southern California generally are desert. East of the mountains surrounding Southern California metro areas there is desert area. The south-east corner of California contains a lot of desert, but I think everyone is aware of that fact. It doesn't mean that "Southern California is mainly desert including LA".

https://www.lamag.com/culturefiles/No, L.A. Is Not a Desert

https://www.marketplace.org/2016/01/13/down the drain/

Thanks for the geography and history lesson. A distinction without a difference.  OK, only some of it is desert.  it's not a desert except for Mojave Desert, Colorado Desert, and Great Basin Desert.  LA is not a desert but is considered semi arid, or whatever.  It had a river.  But that was concreted up and drained into the sea. None of this changes my point. 

Seasonally, during many months of every year, southern California gets extremely hot, dry, and devoid of rainfall like a desert.  Every year on TV we see the brush burning taking homes with it. Every year is called a disaster zone and firefighters are called from around the US and elsewhere to help put out fires and save home. 

If the state government would spend more time and resources clearing away the brush, and imposing building codes that would protect homes and limiting their construction, there would be less damaging fires and more homes would be saved.  That's up to the California government and its governor and local officials, not the Federal government as this land where the homes are located is state responsibility. 

[Alan Klein]

Nope, they don't.  Don't expect that "others will know what I'm talking about".  Words have meaning and value. They are precision instruments. Mis-use them at your readers' peril.

For a perfect, recent example of the precision use of language (and delivery) read or listen to Obama's speech at the DNC.

In any case, if you're going to point to how right you were about California and water and deserts and heat, you missed the example of Death Valley, which recently posted the highest temperature ever recorded.  (a singular, highly suspect outlier from the 1800s notwithstanding)

Most people understand exaggeration, hyperbole, and irony to make a point.  If you don't, or refuse to because you want to make political points, I'm sure most readers understood what I meant. I'll leave it up to them to decide.

[Robert Roaldi]

Very good long-form interview in Politico with former Republican campaign strategist Stuart Stevens, https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2020/08/19/interview-stuart-stevens-republican-case-against-trump-397918. He recently released a book "It Was All a Lie", a critical examination of Republican party politics over the years.

[Peter McLennan]

Thanks for the geography and history lesson. ... None of this changes my point. 

So, correct information is irrelevant to your perception?

The title of this thread is "informed debate".  You've been informed of your ignorance, yet you state that "your point" (whatever it was) remains unchanged. Sound familiar? 

"My mind's made up.  Don't confuse me with facts."

*NOTE*  "Ignorance" does not mean "stupid".  Ignorance means "lack of knowledge".

Seasonally, during many months of every year, southern California gets extremely hot, dry, and devoid of rainfall like a desert.  Every year on TV we see the brush burning taking homes with it. Every year is called a disaster zone and firefighters are called from around the US and elsewhere to help put out fires and save home. 

"like a desert" does not make something a desert.

Fires in deserts are uncommon because there's no fuel. Fires in Mediterranean climates (like LA) are common because there exists extensive vegetation. In other words, fuel. Much of the LA basin biome is called "Chaparral".

Wikipedia:
Chaparral, vegetation composed of broad-leaved evergreen shrubs, bushes, and small trees usually less than 2.5 m (about 8 feet) tall; together they often form dense thickets. Chaparral is found in regions with a climate similar to that of the Mediterranean area, characterized by hot, dry summers and mild, wet winters.

In other words, Los Angeles never was, and is extremely unlikely to become, a desert.


The Mojave and Colorado Deserts are both contained largely within CA.  They are also distant from Los Angeles.

The Great Basin Desert is nearly completely confined to the states of Nevada and Utah.  A tiny sliver of it exists between the political state border and the geoclimatic border of the Sierra Nevada between CA and NV, near Reno.  Calling it a California desert is inaccurate.

Disinformation, rhetoric and hyperbole, in other words. False information de-legitimizes whatever point you're trying to make.

Most people understand exaggeration, hyperbole, and irony to make a point.  If you don't, or refuse to because you want to make political points, I'm sure most readers understood what I meant. I'll leave it up to them to decide.

Words have precise meaning. Interpretation is not up to the reader. Concision, clarity and accuracy are the responsibility of the writer.

 "They know what I meant" does not cut it, as we've seen since 2016

[Alan Klein]

Have a nice day Peter.

[Peter McLennan]

Have a nice day Peter.

Well, at least your response was concise, clear and accurate.

[PeterAit]

Said of Trump: “He has no principles. None. None. And his base, I mean my God, if you were a religious person, you want to help people. Not do this.”

Who said this?

1) Joe Biden
2) Nancy Pelosi
3) Michael Moore
4) Maryanne Trump Barry

If you chose #4, you are right. She is Trump's elder sister and a retired federal judge.

[Alan Klein]

Said of Trump: “He has no principles. None. None. And his base, I mean my God, if you were a religious person, you want to help people. Not do this.”

Who said this?

1) Joe Biden
2) Nancy Pelosi
3) Michael Moore
4) Maryanne Trump Barry

If you chose #4, you are right. She is Trump's elder sister and a retired federal judge.

I think Trump, Biden and Clinton all have issues with moral turpitude.  But the daily barrage of attacks on Trump get old.  People just shrug their shoulders and move on.  The accusations may be getting counter-productive.  I'm sure they will get worse the closer we get to the election.  The NY Times still hasn't pulled it's October surprise yet.  That ought to be a beaut.

[Alan Klein]

He's at it again.

Joe Biden faces new plagiarism claim over DNC acceptance speech
https://nypost.com/2020/08/22/joe-biden-faces-plagiarism-claim-over-dnc-acceptance-speech/

[TechTalk]

My original statement was cherry picked and abbreviated. And you're playing word games with me as you do with Trump.   Anyone who reads the news currently knows I was referring to southern California as that's where the 100 degree heat is occurring the last few days.  Also, the Colorado water basin serves southern California which is extremely dry most of the year.  Apparently you didn't know that either.  Next time I'll try to be more informative.

Here's the full original statement I made: "unfortunately there's no water in California.   If it wasn't for the Colorado River,  it would be like the Sahara.   Right now they have a drought on tp of that with 100 plus degrees.  Another problem is people build on the hills.   So when there's a fire,  it reaches up the sides to the top where everyone wants their house to be."

Actually, your post was in response to a discussion regarding wildfires in California. "Anyone who reads the news currently knows" those wildfires are raging thru Northern California and the record breaking heat wave is over the entire state including Northern California (107 in ocean beach town Santa Cruz). The freak lightning storms around the San Francisco Bay Area and Lake Tahoe that set off the hundreds of wild fires in Northern California, well, here's an amazing view of the lightning and the fires from space (only a minute long, take a look. San Francisco Bay Area on the left and Lake Tahoe on the right of the map overlay)... YouTube/ Watch 10,800 lightning strikes spark 367 California fires from space

[Alan Klein]

Thank you for the news update.

[TechTalk]

If the state government would spend more time and resources clearing away the brush, and imposing building codes that would protect homes and limiting their construction, there would be less damaging fires and more homes would be saved.  That's up to the California government and its governor and local officials, not the Federal government as this land where the homes are located is state responsibility.

The State is continuing its fire control efforts. It's the US Forest Service that has stopped. How do you teach fires not to start in Federally controlled forests that make up the majority of California forest lands and then consuming everything in its path?

[Robert Roaldi]

I think Trump, Biden and Clinton all have issues with moral turpitude.  But the daily barrage of attacks on Trump get old.  People just shrug their shoulders and move on.  The accusations may be getting counter-productive.  I'm sure they will get worse the closer we get to the election.  The NY Times still hasn't pulled it's October surprise yet.  That ought to be a beaut.

That's very disingenuous. It's a given that no one is a saint, it's stupid to expect that. But the many-times per day displays of Trump's unfitness for office are WAY past "moral turpitude".

The latest QAnon-worthy nonsense from the fool that I saw is that the FDA (or someone in the "deep state") is arbitrarily holding back on a Covid vaccine. First, the fact that he uses the term "deep state" alone should disqualify him office. I mean, it's simply too stupid for words.

Second, the idea that a government agency is arbitrarily withholding potentially life-saving vaccines would be TOO DUMB for the National Enquirer, were it still around. The idea is what, that they're doing that to make him look bad, is that the implied fantasy here? It would be more rational to believe in alien abduction.

[Alan Klein]

That's very disingenuous. It's a given that no one is a saint, it's stupid to expect that. But the many-times per day displays of Trump's unfitness for office are WAY past "moral turpitude".

The latest QAnon-worthy nonsense from the fool that I saw is that the FDA (or someone in the "deep state") is arbitrarily holding back on a Covid vaccine. First, the fact that he uses the term "deep state" alone should disqualify him office. I mean, it's simply too stupid for words.

Second, the idea that a government agency is arbitrarily withholding potentially life-saving vaccines would be TOO DUMB for the National Enquirer, were it still around. The idea is what, that they're doing that to make him look bad, is that the implied fantasy here? It would be more rational to believe in alien abduction.

You just proved my point by doing it again.

[Peter McLennan]

You just proved my point by doing it again.

So, everyone should just shut up about Trump?  Leave him alone?

[Alan Klein]

So, everyone should just shut up about Trump?  Leave him alone?

The Democrat strategy is to make fun of their enemies.  It has been a tried and true practice they have used for decades going back to Ike.  I just never have seen it used as much as with Trump.  Of course he gives them a lot of ammunition.  But, I'm not sure it's going to work because of overload.  People have heard it all before since before the last election.  Trump won anyway. The Democrats are counting on people voting against Trump, not voting for Biden. It may work.  On the other hand, if voters discount the personal attacks and ask themselves if Biden can really do the job, his hiding out as a strategy may backfire.

We'll find out soon what voters are thinking. 

[Robert Roaldi]

You just proved my point by doing it again.

Are you seriously suggesting that the President should get a pass on nonsense like this? That it's UNFAIR to point it out?