US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)

Biden

14 (66.7%)

Trump

7 (33.3%)

Total Members Voted: 21

Voting closed: November 02, 2020, 06:25:59 pm

[Bart_van_der_Wolf]

[...]
And the Democrats have been a lost cause for fiscal responsibility for decades.

Really?

https://www.thebalance.com/us-debt-by-president-by-dollar-and-percent-3306296

[Alan Klein]

Really?

https://www.thebalance.com/us-debt-by-president-by-dollar-and-percent-3306296

Looking at which president was in charge when debt was created only tells part of the story.  Congress is the branch responsible for budgets.  So you'd have to examine their political makeup and party affiliation at the time legislation was passed.  I'm not saying Republicans are tight wads.  They're not.  Reagan spent like crazy and Nixon took us off the gold standard which will probably bankrupt us.  It's just that compared to democrats, they used to be more fiscally conservative.  By comparison, if Democrats are like drunken sailors on shore leave, republicans are just sailors on shore leave.   

My apologies to the navy. 

[Robert Roaldi]

Trump's plans are not going well, it seems, https://www.politico.com/news/2020/06/27/trump-losing-2020-election-342326.

There are also reports this morning about Putin putting a bounty on US soldiers and that Trump knew about it. It will be interesting if this turns out to be as true as early reports seem to indicate. I don't have a link because I forget where I saw it, but it should be all over the interweb by now. It's sad how plausible it is though.

Trump's behaviour towards US allies and his seeming chumminess with Putin are odd, to say the least. That time he openly stated that he believed Putin over the US's own intelligence services was eye-popping. I guess that since it was just one more eye-popper in an endless stream of them, the outrage didn't last long. It says something about Trumpeteers that they were seemingly ok with the statement. The idea that they could stomach that big a lie is more in line with cult behaviour than politics.

The article by Ann Applebaum in The Atlantic made an interesting point about "lies", and she used the nonsense about the size of crowds at the inauguration as example. The Trumpian claims at the time was that the crowds were large, which was patently untrue and spectacularly so. But, she says, that's the point. That you can outlandishly make a false claim that is THAT obviously false and that there are no repercussions, THAT is the problem. Whether the crowds were there or not is almost a minor side issue, but the fact that he can state the lie with impunity is what's important. That kind of behaviour is reminiscent of Soviet era in which suddenly someone is erased from pictures. Everyone knows it's bullshit but people are complicit in the bullshit for various reasons, ranging from "I want to keep my job" to "I get a hard-on from belonging to this cult".

I don't think it's possible to overstate how toxic this is. Trump wants people who riot and deface statues to be prioritized by police, nothing wrong with that as it stands. Too bad he didn't come out against armed militiamen storming state legislatures. A true "law and order" candidate would have, if he truly believed in the rule of law. But the signals he gives are that some behaviours are ok if they come from the "correct" side. This is highly authoritarian behaviour, to split citizens into us and them. Leaders of democratic countries are supposed to represent everyone not pick sides internally. The USSR would be proud. Believers in the rule of law and constitution should be up in arms. Why aren't they?

[Alan Klein]

Trump's plans are not going well, it seems, https://www.politico.com/news/2020/06/27/trump-losing-2020-election-342326.

There are also reports this morning about Putin putting a bounty on US soldiers and that Trump knew about it. It will be interesting if this turns out to be as true as early reports seem to indicate. I don't have a link because I forget where I saw it, but it should be all over the interweb by now. It's sad how plausible it is though.

Trump's behaviour towards US allies and his seeming chumminess with Putin are odd, to say the least. That time he openly stated that he believed Putin over the US's own intelligence services was eye-popping. I guess that since it was just one more eye-popper in an endless stream of them, the outrage didn't last long. It says something about Trumpeteers that they were seemingly ok with the statement. The idea that they could stomach that big a lie is more in line with cult behaviour than politics.

The article by Ann Applebaum in The Atlantic made an interesting point about "lies", and she used the nonsense about the size of crowds at the inauguration as example. The Trumpian claims at the time was that the crowds were large, which was patently untrue and spectacularly so. But, she says, that's the point. That you can outlandishly make a false claim that is THAT obviously false and that there are no repercussions, THAT is the problem. Whether the crowds were there or not is almost a minor side issue, but the fact that he can state the lie with impunity is what's important. That kind of behaviour is reminiscent of Soviet era in which suddenly someone is erased from pictures. Everyone knows it's bullshit but people are complicit in the bullshit for various reasons, ranging from "I want to keep my job" to "I get a hard-on from belonging to this cult".

I don't think it's possible to overstate how toxic this is. Trump wants people who riot and deface statues to be prioritized by police, nothing wrong with that as it stands. Too bad he didn't come out against armed militiamen storming state legislatures. A true "law and order" candidate would have, if he truly believed in the rule of law. But the signals he gives are that some behaviours are ok if they come from the "correct" side. This is highly authoritarian behaviour, to split citizens into us and them. Leaders of democratic countries are supposed to represent everyone not pick sides internally. The USSR would be proud. Believers in the rule of law and constitution should be up in arms. Why aren't they?

You have to beat somebody with somebody else.  You don't vote against Trump.  You have to vote for his opponent who is Biden now and was Hillary Clinton in 2016. I realize Democrats are making this a vote on whether you like Trump or not.  It's because they have a weak candidate and it's scary that he might be in charge of running and protecting America, a guy who isn't sure where he is and hides out in the basement afraid to come out.  That's not leadership.  An American President has to deal with some despicable people around the world through difficult times and challenges.  Many Americans don't think Biden is up for it.  So they'll hold their noses, again, and vote for Trump. 

[hogloff]

You have to beat somebody with somebody else.  You don't vote against Trump.  You have to vote for his opponent who is Biden now and was Hillary Clinton in 2016. I realize Democrats are making this a vote on whether you like Trump or not.  It's because they have a weak candidate and it's scary that he might be in charge of running and protecting America, a guy who isn't sure where he is and hides out in the basement afraid to come out.  That's not leadership.  An American President has to deal with some despicable people around the world through difficult times and challenges.  Many Americans don't think Biden is up for it.  So they'll hold their noses, again, and vote for Trump.

And you call what Trump does leadership. A guy that blantantly lies to his people...that's leadership and someone you want running your country?

[Alan Klein]

And you call what Trump does leadership. A guy that blantantly lies to his people...that's leadership and someone you want running your country?

All politicians and presidents lie or embellish.  Obama lied about Obamacare.  Johnson lied about the Tonkin Gulf and Vietnam,  Reagan lied about Iranian aid to Nicaragua, Nixon lied about Watergate, Bush lied about WMD's in Iraq, and Washington lied about the cherry tree.    Trump's done  a lot of good stuff: got us out of Iraq and getting us out of Afghanistan, destroyed ISIS, until the virus created a dynamic economy, and other stuff.  He's certainly not a politician, never was, can;lt speak well.  But he gets things done and has protected American interests.  Do you really think Biden is telling the truth about the Ukraine, his son, and the millions they made?   Why don't you run? You seem like an honest fellow.

[Alan Goldhammer]

The winning campaign issue right now is health insurance.  Even if they have a COBRA plan, the premiums will be very high.  A lot of those who have been laid off and will not be going back to their jobs won't have health insurance and the Trump Administration seems to be willfully committing suicide by going after the ACA aka Obamacare, without any replacement being offered.  Biden just has to sit on the stoop ala William McKinley and just keep repeating the mantra - "they want to take away your health insurance" 

[faberryman]

You have to beat somebody with somebody else.  You don't vote against Trump.  You have to vote for his opponent who is Biden now and was Hillary Clinton in 2016. I realize Democrats are making this a vote on whether you like Trump or not.  It's because they have a weak candidate and it's scary that he might be in charge of running and protecting America, a guy who isn't sure where he is and hides out in the basement afraid to come out.  That's not leadership.  An American President has to deal with some despicable people around the world through difficult times and challenges.  Many Americans don't think Biden is up for it.  So they'll hold their noses, again, and vote for Trump.

None of which is responsive to the post you quoted. It's just a deflection.

[hogloff]

All politicians and presidents lie or embellish.  Obama lied about Obamacare.  Johnson lied about the Tonkin Gulf and Vietnam,  Reagan lied about Iranian aid to Nicaragua, Nixon lied about Watergate, Bush lied about WMD's in Iraq, and Washington lied about the cherry tree.    Trump's done  a lot of good stuff: got us out of Iraq and getting us out of Afghanistan, destroyed ISIS, until the virus created a dynamic economy, and other stuff.  He's certainly not a politician, never was, can;lt speak well.  But he gets things done and has protected American interests.  Do you really think Biden is telling the truth about the Ukraine, his son, and the millions they made?   Why don't you run? You seem like an honest fellow.

Sure all presidents lied...but Trump does it continuously, on purpose to mislead his people. He totally screwed the response to the pendemic and then lies about it...along with his puppet Pence. Just look at the fact checks on any of his speeches...and don't even try on his tweets as they are all bullshit. He loves to put down anyone that does not agree with him by using childish name calling. I just shudder to think the values being instilled into today's children as they watch this idiot of a president lie and name call to his hearts content...and his Trumpateer crowds all eat it up.

[Craig Lamson]

The winning campaign issue right now is health insurance.  Even if they have a COBRA plan, the premiums will be very high.  A lot of those who have been laid off and will not be going back to their jobs won't have health insurance and the Trump Administration seems to be willfully committing suicide by going after the ACA aka Obamacare, without any replacement being offered.  Biden just has to sit on the stoop ala William McKinley and just keep repeating the mantra - "they want to take away your health insurance"

If the incomes of a lot of these folks falls too low it won't be Obamacare in their future, it will be Medicaid.

[Craig Lamson]

New Jersey Mail in vote fraud case.  Interesting. Perhaps up to 20% of the total vote are fake.  Even more interesting are these different reports on the incident.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/25/politics/new-jersey-attorney-general-announces-voting-fraud-charges/index.html

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2020/06/26/1_in_5_ballots_rejected_as_fraud_is_charged_in_nj_mail-in_election_143551.html

https://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local/close-results-in-paterson-vote-plagued-by-fraud-claims-over-3k-ballots-seemingly-set-aside/2425813/

[faberryman]

There are also reports this morning about Putin putting a bounty on US soldiers and that Trump knew about it. It will be interesting if this turns out to be as true as early reports seem to indicate. I don't have a link because I forget where I saw it, but it should be all over the interweb by now. It's sad how plausible it is though.

Trump has denied being briefed. I am not sure whether to believe him. He lies about everything else. so I am not willing to give him the benefit of the doubt. Besides, he didn't say he didn't know anything about it. He just said he hadn't be "briefed". We'll just have to see how this develops over time.

[Alan Klein]

New Jersey Mail in vote fraud case.  Interesting. Perhaps up to 20% of the total vote are fake.  Even more interesting are these different reports on the incident.

https://www.cnn.com/2020/06/25/politics/new-jersey-attorney-general-announces-voting-fraud-charges/index.html

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/articles/2020/06/26/1_in_5_ballots_rejected_as_fraud_is_charged_in_nj_mail-in_election_143551.html

https://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local/close-results-in-paterson-vote-plagued-by-fraud-claims-over-3k-ballots-seemingly-set-aside/2425813/

Paterson, NJ election fraud is just the tip of the iceberg, the ones who got caught.  Quote from on of the articles above: "Paterson was just one of 31 municipalities in New Jersey that held vote-by-mail elections on May 12. The average disqualification rate for mail-in ballots in all 31 elections across the state was an alarming 9.6%. (The ballot rejection rate drops to 8.1% if Paterson’s results are excluded.)"  So the fraud was across the state.  10%! Where is the national news on this?  Trump's been complaining about mail-in and non-ID voting.  Where are the Republicans on this issue?

Also, the type of people who would commit fraud to win the election, would be the same people to commit fraud with kickbacks once in power.  The town has a budget of $300 million.  If you want to get a contract there to do government work, you'd have to pay the "customary fee" to the winners.  The fraudsters don't care about democracy.  Just getting into power to control the money.  The town is  the third most populated in New Jersey where I live. 

[hogloff]

Trump has denied being briefed. I am not sure whether to believe him. He lies about everything else. so I am not willing to give him the benefit of the doubt. We'll just have to see how this develops over time.

That's the problem when dealing with a compulsive liar. You have no idea when he is telling the truth. Assume he is lying and you'll be more right than wrong.

[Craig Lamson]

Trump has denied being briefed. I am not sure whether to believe him. He lies about everything else. so I am not willing to give him the benefit of the doubt. We'll just have to see how this develops over time.

Apparently, The NSA, The CIA Director and the White House Chief of Staff also deny Trump was briefed.


“The CIA Director, National Security Adviser and the Chief of Staff can all confirm that neither the President nor the Vice President were briefed on the alleged Russian bounty intelligence,” press secretary Kayleigh McEnany said.

[Craig Lamson]

That's the problem when dealing with a compulsive liar. You have no idea when he is telling the truth. Assume he is lying and you'll be more right than wrong.

Oh, you talking about the press again?

[faberryman]

Apparently, The DNI, The CIA Director and the White House Chief of Staff also deny Trump was briefed.

“The CIA Director, National Security Adviser and the Chief of Staff can all confirm that neither the President nor the Vice President were briefed on the alleged Russian bounty intelligence,” press secretary Kayleigh McEnany said.

Has anyone said the substance of the report is untrue?

[Craig Lamson]

Has anyone said the substance of the report is untrue?

I've not heard and the White House will not comment as they say is customary practce.   Both the Taliban and the Russians also deny it. 

[faberryman]

Both the Taliban and the Russians also deny it.

Well, there is a surprise.

I have listened to a couple of the recent press conferences, and Kayleigh McEnany is even less credible than her predecessors, if that is even possible.

[Alan Klein]

I wouldn't be surprised if there are bounties.  I believe we had bounties on Taliban leaders.  At least for info about their whereabouts.  The questions is if it's true about the Russian bounties, what should we do about it? I think they're getting even for all the Russians we killed in Syria.  This is one of the reasons I favored not getting involved with the Kurds when the Turks complained.  We need to get out of there.  We don't have a dog in the fight.  Let them all kill each other.  A plague on all their houses.