US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)

Biden

14 (66.7%)

Trump

7 (33.3%)

Total Members Voted: 21

Voting closed: November 02, 2020, 06:25:59 pm

[Alan Klein]

Good grief, stop being a dick.  Pretty much everything posted here without a link included is someones opinion.    Deal with it.

Well, our opinions should be banned because they don't agree with the opinions of the other side.  What we need are fact checkers like Twitter and CNN, purveyors of the Truth.

[Craig Lamson]

Well, our opinions should be banned because they don't agree with the opinions of the other side.  What we need are fact checkers like Twitter and CNN, purveyors of the Truth.

Well that seems to be the current trend.  So much for the party of inclusion and diversity.

[Alan Klein]

Well that seems to be the current trend.  So much for the party of inclusion and diversity.

Diversity of color, gender, sexual preference, etc. but not of thought.

[Peter McLennan]

I'm not being a "dick".  I'm being responsible.

Disinformation is disinformation. Lies are lies. 

Both are harmful to everyone, as we're seeing every day.

[Jeremy Roussak]

What were the Chinese doing in their virus lab in Wuhan where the virus started?  Why does China have it under control and their economy is expanding while the rest of the world's economies are shrinking in recession?  Too many coincidences.  I hope you're right.  I don't think they care about the rest of the world when you consider that their own Communist party killed 20 million of their own people under Mao.  Do you think Xi cares about you or me? If you are correct, they still lied about the nature of it for the first six weeks. That time could have been used by the rest of the world to get started fighting it better. China is a bad actor regardless.

Classic Klein. Make an assertion for which you have no evidence (because there is no evidence) and flail around with subtle changes to the topic when challenged.

Jeremy

[Alan Goldhammer]

What were the Chinese doing in their virus lab in Wuhan where the virus started?

They do basic research on viruses and other infectious agents the same way researchers in the US do.  We have a high containment lab about 3/4 a mile down the road from me at the NIH Bethesda campus.

Why does China have it under control and their economy is expanding while the rest of the world's economies are shrinking in recession?

First they have an authoritarian government that can enforce lockdowns. Second they are able to mobilize testing to an extent where several million people can be tested and if positive quarantined quickly.  Note that South Korea and Taiwan while not authoritarian also manage the virus very well.

Do you think Xi cares about you or me?

I am sure he does not want to lose their biggest trading partner!!!!

[Alan Klein]

Classic Klein. Make an assertion for which you have no evidence (because there is no evidence) and flail around with subtle changes to the topic when challenged.

Jeremy

I don't trust or believe the Chinese Communist government.  Additionally the evidence is not all in.  Researchers have not figured out all the details or know the source for sure.  Certainly they lied for six weeks about it.  Do you approve of that?  It seems your country is suffering greatly possibly because of these delays. 

Why do you believe them?   China swore the islands they were building up in the South China Sea were not for military purposes at all. While they were doing it and swearing they were for civilian use only, I didn't believe that either.    Now they're armed to the teeth.  Governments and people have finally woken up about Chinese duplicity.  Everyone should wise up about it. 

[Craig Lamson]

I'm not being a "dick".  I'm being responsible.

Disinformation is disinformation. Lies are lies. 

Both are harmful to everyone, as we're seeing every day.

No you ARE being a dick.  There is nothing responsible in your constant attacks on Alan.  This is a forum of mostly old guys speaking their minds.  Alan posts what he feels or thinks. You surely don't have to read it or respond.  If you don't like someones opinion, just learn to live with it or you counter it with your own.    You are not the "Ministry of Truth".  Get over yourself.   If someone like Alan posts a link and you don't like it, refute it. 

[John Camp]

Alan, unless you are purposely trying to stir things up here I would like to point something out to you.

You stated in your Reply #2297: "It was created in a Chinese lab". To me, that sounds like you are stating a fact.

Here, it is, "I hope you're right" and "(I)f you are correct"...

Why would anyone believe what you say and take your discussion here respectfully and seriously?

But...nobody does.

[faberryman]

Maybe AOC could order the cutouts from Amazon.

Let me tell you a little story. I have this modest fish pond out back, and I noticed that some of my fish were going MIA. So I thought about it and concluded the fish were eating each other or something. Then I was sitting on the back porch one morning drinking my coffee, and low and behold this Great Blue Herron swooped down and began gobbling down my fish faster than people at the buffet at Golden Corral. So I read up on it and learned that if you put a fake Great Blue Herron next to your pond, the real Great Blue Herrons wouldn't come and eat your fish. My initial reaction was to think that Great Blue Herrons couldn't possible be that stupid, but then I remembered about how Scarecrow in The Wizard of Oz was out in the field scaring the birds away, so I ordered a fake Great Blue Herron from Amazon and put it by my pond, and I haven't lost a fish since. I don't know if coyotes are as dumb as Great Blue Herrons, but we might give it a try. I mean Amazon is pretty good about returns if the fake Roadrunners don't work. Now you could probably pick the analogy apart, but my point is not every stupid idea is stupid. A lot of people dismiss out of hand ideas about stuff they know nothing about. I know I'm no expert on coyotes and Roadrunners, except to the extent I have seen some cartoons on TV. Is that enough to make a judgment about the idea? I mean if Trump thought up this idea you would probably say he is a genius whether it worked or not.

[Craig Lamson]

Let me tell you a little story. I have this modest fish pond out back, and I noticed that some my fish were going MIA. So I thought about it and concluded the fish were eating each other or something. Then I was sitting on the back porch one morning drinking my coffee, and low and behold this Great Blue Herron swooped down and began gobbling down my fish faster than people at the buffet at Golden Corral. So I read up on it and learned that if you put a fake Great Blue Herron next to your pond, the real Great Blue Herrons wouldn't come and eat your fish. My initial reaction was to think that Great Blue Herrons couldn't possible be that stupid, but then I remember about how Scarecrow in The Wizard of Oz was out in the field scaring the birds away, so I ordered a fake Blue Herron and put it by my pond, and I haven't lost  fish since. I don't know if coyotes are as dumb as Great Blue Herrons, but we might give it a try. I mean Amazon is pretty good about returns if the fake Roadrunners don't work. Not every stupid idea is stupid. I mean a lot of people dismiss out of hand ideas they know nothing about.

Lets seriously hope that was meant as satire

[Alan Klein]

They do basic research on viruses and other infectious agents the same way researchers in the US do.  We have a high containment lab about 3/4 a mile down the road from me at the NIH Bethesda campus. First they have an authoritarian government that can enforce lockdowns. Second they are able to mobilize testing to an extent where several million people can be tested and if positive quarantined quickly.  Note that South Korea and Taiwan while not authoritarian also manage the virus very well. I am sure he does not want to lose their biggest trading partner!!!!

That's what I figured at first. They wouldn't want to hurt their customers.  But it turns out that it didn't matter.  Their economy will grow anyway by something like 5% while the worlds decreases in recession.  They still are exporting as the world needs their stuff.  Plus they have a huge population that can absorb new production as they domesticate sales which they said previously was in their plans. 

So my thinking has shifted.  Xi is pretty mad at Trump and the US in any case.  Also, he wants China to be the biggest economy. I read the other day that because of Covid, they just did that, earlier than would have happened without Covid. America is bankrupting itself now printing money willy nilly.  That will destroy the dollar and open China to become the world's reserve currency.  They've been squirreling away gold for years to back it up.

Maybe it was just an accident that they're taking advantage of.  But it's possible they planned it knowing they can control it in their own country while the rest of the free world's economies roil in confusion and setbacks trying to deal with it.  If true and governments know this, they may be keeping it a secret as well to prevent a war with them.  Stranger things have happened in history.  Conquerors would catapult sick and infected dead people over the walls of towns they were attacking to weaken the populace by spreading disease.  It's not a new concept.

[Alan Klein]

No you ARE being a dick.  There is nothing responsible in your constant attacks on Alan.  This is a forum of mostly old guys speaking their minds.  Alan posts what he feels or thinks. You surely don't have to read it or respond.  If you don't like someones opinion, just learn to live with it or you counter it with your own.    You are not the "Ministry of Truth".  Get over yourself.   If someone like Alan posts a link and you don't like it, refute it. 

Thanks. I might have to hire you as my consigliere.

[Alan Goldhammer]

I don't trust or believe the Chinese Communist government.  Additionally the evidence is not all in.  Researchers have not figured out all the details or know the source for sure. 

It is easy to  make these accusations.  About 25 years ago I was an advisor to the US State Department prior to the negotiations of the Third Review Conference on Biological Weapons and I had also been on the advisory board of the old Office of Technology Assessment that prepared some reports for the US Congress on weapons of mass destruction.  The State Department discussions were quite interesting in that there was concern about what the Russians may or may not have been doing in their labs.  The Chinese research infrastructure was not a concern at that time as they were still emerging from under the yoke of Mao.  There was a lot of discussion about how to conduct challenge visits of facilities that might have the capability of doing biological weapons research.  The problem is how you define this as most all of the pathogens of interest for BW purposes are naturally occurring and research into drug and vaccines is fully legitimate under the treaty.  There was a pharmaceutical company who I will not name that had a manufacturing facility on the site of an old stock yard.  Researchers from the company took soil samples from around the perimeter and found anthrax spores which is not surprising given the use of the land prior.  Did this mean that the pharmaceutical company was engaged in nefarious BW research?  No, it just meant that there was a finding for which there was an easy explanation.

Wuhan has a Biosafety Level 4 research facility and there are about 15 such facilities here in the US.  this is the highest containment facility around and is very sophisticated in terms of containment.  There are many more Level 3 facilities around.  They have good containment but not the negative pressure and 'moon suits' that BL-4 labs have.  Depending on the type of research being done with SARS-CoV-2, BL -2 might be sufficient.   For those who are interested:  https://www.nature.com/articles/s41684-020-0644-8  is a pretty good article on the topic.

Regardless of the political differences, I have admired the fine work being done by Chinese clinicians and researchers since the pandemic broke out.  they are publishing many fine papers and doing good work in the vaccine area as well.

I do not believe that there is any kind of conspiracy here.

[Alan Klein]

Who needs scientific evidence? Besides, just because it is a conspiracy theory doesn't mean it's not true.  I deduced that from what Gene Hackman said in Enemy of the State: "Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean everyone is not out to get you."  I have surmised this is Alan's thought process.

You're attacking me not my ideas.  What we need is a mute button. 

[Craig Lamson]

Thanks. I might have to hire you as my consigliere.

I'll be honest, you are entitled to your opinion and often I don't agree.  That said the fact is that quite a few members here have made their feeling know about your posts.  They KNOW who you are and what you post. Continuing to berate you offers nothing. 

[Alan Klein]

Alan, unless you are purposely trying to stir things up here I would like to point something out to you.

You stated in your Reply #2297: "It was created in a Chinese lab". To me, that sounds like you are stating a fact.

Here, it is, "I hope you're right" and "(I)f you are correct"...

Why would anyone believe what you say and take your discussion here respectfully and seriously?

#2297 is not my post.

[faberryman]

That's what I figured at first. They wouldn't want to hurt their customers.  But it turns out that it didn't matter.  Their economy will grow anyway by something like 5% while the worlds decreases in recession.  They still are exporting as the world needs their stuff.  Plus they have a huge population that can absorb new production as they domesticate sales which they said previously was in their plans. 

So my thinking has shifted.  Xi is pretty mad at Trump and the US in any case.  Also, he wants China to be the biggest economy. I read the other day that because of Covid, they just did that, earlier than would have happened without Covid. America is bankrupting itself now printing money willy nilly.  That will destroy the dollar and open China to become the world's reserve currency.  They've been squirreling away gold for years to back it up.

Maybe it was just an accident that they're taking advantage of.  But it's possible they planned it knowing they can control it in their own country while the rest of the free world's economies roil in confusion and setbacks trying to deal with it.  If true and governments know this, they may be keeping it a secret as well to prevent a war with them.  Stranger things have happened in history.  Conquerors would catapult sick and infected dead people over the walls of towns they were attacking to weaken the populace by spreading disease.  It's not a new concept.

Anything is possible, I guess. I suppose the commie/lib press are probably engaged in an enormous media coverup about it right now, so I guess it's time to head on over to Infowars to find out what Alex Jones knows about it. Maybe the scientists in Wuhan were also engaged in sexually abusing underage Chinese girls and someone can track down the videos. Like I said, anything is possible.

[Alan Klein]

It is easy to  make these accusations.  About 25 years ago I was an advisor to the US State Department prior to the negotiations of the Third Review Conference on Biological Weapons and I had also been on the advisory board of the old Office of Technology Assessment that prepared some reports for the US Congress on weapons of mass destruction.  The State Department discussions were quite interesting in that there was concern about what the Russians may or may not have been doing in their labs.  The Chinese research infrastructure was not a concern at that time as they were still emerging from under the yoke of Mao.  There was a lot of discussion about how to conduct challenge visits of facilities that might have the capability of doing biological weapons research.  The problem is how you define this as most all of the pathogens of interest for BW purposes are naturally occurring and research into drug and vaccines is fully legitimate under the treaty.  There was a pharmaceutical company who I will not name that had a manufacturing facility on the site of an old stock yard.  Researchers from the company took soil samples from around the perimeter and found anthrax spores which is not surprising given the use of the land prior.  Did this mean that the pharmaceutical company was engaged in nefarious BW research?  No, it just meant that there was a finding for which there was an easy explanation.

Wuhan has a Biosafety Level 4 research facility and there are about 15 such facilities here in the US.  this is the highest containment facility around and is very sophisticated in terms of containment.  There are many more Level 3 facilities around.  They have good containment but not the negative pressure and 'moon suits' that BL-4 labs have.  Depending on the type of research being done with SARS-CoV-2, BL -2 might be sufficient.   For those who are interested:  https://www.nature.com/articles/s41684-020-0644-8  is a pretty good article on the topic.

Regardless of the political differences, I have admired the fine work being done by Chinese clinicians and researchers since the pandemic broke out.  they are publishing many fine papers and doing good work in the vaccine area as well.

I do not believe that there is any kind of conspiracy here.

Well, it did appear at a minimum that they hid the true nature of what was going on for 6 weeks when others could have geared up to address the problem earlier.  They shut down travel domestically out of Wuhan while allowing Chinese to travel from there to Europe, America and the rest of the world spreading the disease as the went.  So they were certainly negligent in those ways.  Even if it wasn't planned, if it did escape accidently by an infected lab worker, that too is negligence that caused a lot of dead and sick people throughout the world.  So their hands are not clean on this.  There are already lawsuits against China in the US filed by individuals, companies and states.  I think the courts will agree with me and the people who think China was negligent at a minimum.  Frankly, I hope it wasn't planned because what else do they have up their sleeve?   

[faberryman]

Lets seriously hope that was meant as satire

More on the order of a fable. The thing is while I don't think I am a babbling idiot, I do know that there is a whole lot of stuff I don't know anything about, so I usually don't go with my initial reaction, unless it is an emergency or something. I think the phrase for that is jumping to conclusions. So I usually think about it for a little while and maybe do a little research. For me, it is a better approach.