Poll

Who do you think will be sworn in as President on Jan. 21?

Biden
- 14 (66.7%)
Trump
- 7 (33.3%)

Total Members Voted: 21

Voting closed: November 02, 2020, 06:25:59 pm


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Author Topic: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)  (Read 110354 times)

Craig Lamson

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #2940 on: October 24, 2020, 09:22:20 am »

Exactly. Like Trump campaign chairman Paul Manafort passing internal Trump campaign information to a Russian intelligence officer during the 2016 election.

https://www.npr.org/2020/08/18/senate-report-former-trump-aide-paul-manafort-shared-campaign-info-with-russia

"Former Trump campaign chairman Paul Manafort passed internal Trump campaign information to a Russian intelligence officer during the 2016 election, a new bipartisan Senate report concludes.

The findings draw a direct line between the president's former campaign chairman and Russian intelligence during the 2016 campaign.

Manafort, who was later convicted for financial fraud crimes, briefed Russian intelligence officer Konstantin Kilimnik on the campaign's polling data and how the Trump campaign sought to beat Hillary Clinton in the presidential election.

Manafort's connection with Kilimnik was a "grave counterintelligence threat," the report reads, adding that it found evidence the Russian intelligence officer may have been linked to the Russian government's efforts to hack and leak Democratic Party emails.

The findings are part of the Senate Intelligence Committee's fifth and final bipartisan report investigating Russian efforts to interfere in the 2016 election. This volume is primarily focused on counterintelligence threats and the wide range of Russian attempts to influence both the Trump campaign and the election.

The report builds on special counsel Robert Mueller's investigation — and while it was consistent with the Mueller Report, it in fact goes further."

Much more at NPR story linked above

Polling data!  My now thats a story with national import!  Was it a Push poll?
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Craig Lamson

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #2941 on: October 24, 2020, 09:30:41 am »

It kind of depends on what you mean by “wrong doing”. And I don’t think no evidence was found. I think they found evidence, but determined they probably didn’t find enough evidence to prove beyond a reasonable doubt. So it was more a question of burden of proof. I once read that a lot of guilty guys go free because the prosecutor thinks he probably didn’t find enough evidence to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that they did it. So the issue a lot of of times is not whether he did it, but whether he hid his tracks well enough so that the prosecutor can’t meet the burden of proof.

And then of course there is the whole thing about DOJ policy not to indict a sitting president even if you do have enough evidence he is guilty. A lot of people think Mueller blew it by not rethinking that idea. Some people say oh we can’t change DOJ policy, but at the same time they say we can change Roe v. Wade. I usually say that they might want to give that some more thought. They rarely take me up on it. Wouldn’t want to have to think. It’s too taxing.

Well of course evidence is the common way we decide if someone committed a crime and they try them in a court of law by a jury of their peers based on that evidence.  Generally we don't have prosecuters tell the public that we think the subject did this and this and that, but we think he is a scumbag but we can't prove it.  Kind of like what that scumbag Mueller did.
« Last Edit: October 24, 2020, 11:15:19 am by Craig Lamson »
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Craig Lamson

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #2942 on: October 24, 2020, 09:47:03 am »

Are you sure you're not thinking of all of the gullible people who bought the constant lies from Trump and those associated with the campaign claiming that they hadn't talked with any Russians while they actually were meeting with some who lured them with an offer of dirt on Hillary and the campaign manager was meeting with a Russian Intelligence officer? Or maybe you were thinking of all of the gullible people who bought the Trump lies about not having any business dealings in Russia while in reality he was working on a Trump Tower Moscow deal right up to the election.

Oh like the Hillary folks cooking up the Russian dossier and peddling it to the press and the FBI?  Things like that? 
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faberryman

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #2943 on: October 24, 2020, 10:01:49 am »

Oh like the Hillary folks cooking up the Russian dossier and peddling it to the press and the FBI?  Things like that?

It pretty much means that both sides are obsessed with going down rabbit holes to prove the other guys are scoundrels. And of course there is that revenge factor to consider. Anyway, It’s a lot easier than governing.
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Alan Klein

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #2944 on: October 24, 2020, 10:49:08 am »

It pretty much means that both sides are obsessed with going down rabbit holes to prove the other guys are scoundrels. And of course there is that revenge factor to consider. Anyway, It’s a lot easier than governing.
Trying to find dirt and smearing your opponent is an American tradition.  Perfectly legal even if obscene.  What's was bad about the Russia hoax is that secret government police forces were illegally  used to go after a politician to destroy his candidacy and then his presidency.  It hurt the country and set a bad precedence for future political chicanery.

Robert Roaldi

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #2945 on: October 24, 2020, 10:53:04 am »

Finger-pointing and recriminations in the Trump campaign, https://www.politico.com/news/2020/10/24/trump-election-paranoia-431330. This is decidedly not how good leaders manage a crisis. When you choose the management style of calling people names and throwing them under the bus when it suits, unless they're related to you that is, then inevitably you end up with staff who are not loyal, since there is no benefit in being loyal. It's a lousy way to lead although it can attract enthusiastic cultists, for a while anyway.

It's an interesting social experiment the US is conducting, although it's not evident to me why it was necessary to conduct it.
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Robert Roaldi

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #2946 on: October 24, 2020, 11:07:16 am »

Trying to find dirt and smearing your opponent is an American tradition.  Perfectly legal even if obscene. 

Especially when they make stuff up. ;)


What's was bad about the Russia hoax is that secret government police forces were illegally  used to go after a politician to destroy his candidacy and then his presidency.  It hurt the country and set a bad precedence for future political chicanery.

Please stop the troll farm talking points, it was not a hoax, shown time and again.

And, what "secret government police forces"?

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Robert

RSL

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #2947 on: October 24, 2020, 11:13:30 am »

Wonder what an "uninformed" debate would look like.
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Craig Lamson

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #2948 on: October 24, 2020, 11:17:43 am »

It pretty much means that both sides are obsessed with going down rabbit holes to prove the other guys are scoundrels. And of course there is that revenge factor to consider. Anyway, It’s a lot easier than governing.

Why not?  If its good for the goose its good for the gander.   We have not had much "governing" here for a very long time.  Thats pretty much bipartisan.
« Last Edit: October 24, 2020, 11:22:59 am by Craig Lamson »
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Chris Kern

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #2949 on: October 24, 2020, 11:43:00 am »

Wonder what an "uninformed" debate would look like.

I shudder to think of that.

Alan Klein

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #2950 on: October 24, 2020, 11:47:33 am »

Especially when they make stuff up. ;)


Please stop the troll farm talking points, it was not a hoax, shown time and again.

And, what "secret government police forces"?


The FBI, FISA court, etc.  They used false information to allow themselves the illegal right to investigate a political opponent and sitting president before and after a presidential election.  I don't think that's even allowed in Canada, but I could be wrong. 

Alan Klein

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #2951 on: October 24, 2020, 11:51:19 am »

Why not?  If its good for the goose its good for the gander.   We have not had much "governing" here for a very long time.  Thats pretty much bipartisan.
Actually, considering the pressure and stress the president has been under for four years, he's accomplished a lot.  I think he relishes the fight.  Another man would have withered under the strain.  Like when he got Covid.  He seems to come back stronger.  Meanwhile, his opponent hides out in the basement putting an early "lid" on the day's activities so he can take his noon nap.

Robert Roaldi

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #2952 on: October 24, 2020, 12:00:47 pm »

This seems to be making the rounds on the web, something about a Trump tweet about installing men on the Moon and going to Mars, https://worldnewsera.com/news/politics/people-cant-believe-this-rnc-tweet-about-trumps-priorities-isnt-a-parody/. It is being reported on several sites, which doesn't mean much on its own. Anyone have any idea if this is real? If it is, it seems like a bizarre side trip to take at this point.
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Alan Klein

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #2953 on: October 24, 2020, 12:07:29 pm »

This seems to be making the rounds on the web, something about a Trump tweet about installing men on the Moon and going to Mars, https://worldnewsera.com/news/politics/people-cant-believe-this-rnc-tweet-about-trumps-priorities-isnt-a-parody/. It is being reported on several sites, which doesn't mean much on its own. Anyone have any idea if this is real? If it is, it seems like a bizarre side trip to take at this point.
When President Kennedy called for putting a man on the moon by the end of the 1960's, everyone thought he was inspirational giving the country a positive goal we all could join in on to strengthen the country and remind us we're all Americans.  Why should anyone be opposed to Trump's similar recommendations other than you just don't like him?

Robert Roaldi

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #2954 on: October 24, 2020, 12:10:48 pm »

A Congressman's wife has a disturbing dream. I'm not sure I know how to summarize this content.

I'm only including this for its entertainment value, it's Saturday and we need a break, https://www.huffingtonpost.ca/entry/louisiana-clay-becca-higgins-premotion-guns_n_5f93691bc5b6a2e1fb615ae1.
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Robert Roaldi

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #2955 on: October 24, 2020, 12:13:41 pm »

When President Kennedy called for putting a man on the moon by the end of the 1960's, everyone thought he was inspirational giving the country a positive goal we all could join in on to strengthen the country and remind us we're all Americans.  Why should anyone be opposed to Trump's similar recommendations other than you just don't like him?

I'm not sure anyone is necessarily opposed to it. It just seems like a weird thing to come out of the blue and appear on Twitter at this stage of the campaign. Don't politicians issue policy handbooks anymore to inform citizens what to expect from them? Seems a bit haphazard to make random statements on a media platform that not everyone has access to. It's an odd communications strategy.
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faberryman

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #2956 on: October 24, 2020, 12:24:13 pm »

Actually, considering the pressure and stress the president has been under for four years, he's accomplished a lot.  I think he relishes the fight.  Another man would have withered under the strain.  Like when he got Covid.  He seems to come back stronger.  Meanwhile, his opponent hides out in the basement putting an early "lid" on the day's activities so he can take his noon nap.

You know, that's exactly what I tell my wife, that despite overwhelming odds, I am a tremendous success. She is pretty smart and usually doesn't buy it. Occasionally she drops her guard and I get away with something. But who knows? I'm still married so maybe Trump will get re-elected.
« Last Edit: October 24, 2020, 06:40:49 pm by faberryman »
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Alan Klein

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #2957 on: October 24, 2020, 12:25:41 pm »

A Congressman's wife has a disturbing dream. I'm not sure I know how to summarize this content.

I'm only including this for its entertainment value, it's Saturday and we need a break, https://www.huffingtonpost.ca/entry/louisiana-clay-becca-higgins-premotion-guns_n_5f93691bc5b6a2e1fb615ae1.
President Reagan's wife consulted the astrology charts.  She once stopped the president from going to an important meeting fearing for his life based on some report she got from her astrologist she often had up at the White House.  Unfortunately, the astrologist must have been on vacation when Reagan was shot during an assassination attempt.   Where are the Gods when you need them?

Alan Klein

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #2958 on: October 24, 2020, 12:31:26 pm »

I'm not sure anyone is necessarily opposed to it. It just seems like a weird thing to come out of the blue and appear on Twitter at this stage of the campaign. Don't politicians issue policy handbooks anymore to inform citizens what to expect from them? Seems a bit haphazard to make random statements on a media platform that not everyone has access to. It's an odd communications strategy.
Actually, I though I heard from him awhile ago that he was opposed to going back to the moon.  After all, we did that 50 years ago.  Why are we doing it again like all these other countries want to do?  We should look forward and jump ahead and go directly to Mars.  Well, anyway, that sounds more inspirational.  Recently, I bought a 4x5 view camera after shooting medium format and 35mm for decades.  I thought it might inspire me.  Nothing much yet, though.  Maybe I should sign up for Mars?

Robert Roaldi

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Re: US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)
« Reply #2959 on: October 24, 2020, 12:34:43 pm »

Actually, I though I heard from him awhile ago that he was opposed to going back to the moon.  After all, we did that 50 years ago.  Why are we doing it again like all these other countries want to do?  We should look forward and jump ahead and go directly to Mars.  Well, anyway, that sounds more inspirational.  Recently, I bought a 4x5 view camera after shooting medium format and 35mm for decades.  I thought it might inspire me.  Nothing much yet, though.  Maybe I should sign up for Mars?

I have no idea what kind of filters you'll need for the red planet. It's a long flight, pack a lunch.
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