US Elections 2020 (geopolitics, informed debate, no ad hominems)

Biden

14 (66.7%)

Trump

7 (33.3%)

Total Members Voted: 21

Voting closed: November 02, 2020, 06:25:59 pm

[James Clark]

Good job news, voting starting, Biden losing ground in the polls (loser?)... A perfect time to launch a smear.  The story keeps shifting.  Bolton destroyed the first narrative.  Time to move the goalposts.  And they did.   

Now did Trump hate McCain?  Oh yea as did a good part of Trumps base.  This has been well known for years.  Asking Kelly  why men go to war and die...a perfectly reasonable question.  Calling troops losers and suckers?  That one is quite problematic for the smear mongers.  But say it loud  enough without proof and those so inclined will believe it. 

It will be something else next week.  And the week after.  And the week after.  Will it move the needle?  I don’t think so.

So Bolton is credible now?  Ok. Lets go with that. Sound good?

[TechTalk]

Current Poll Averages

538 Polling Average - https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/polls/president-general/national/

Recent Polling Average History: March 1 - Biden +4.1%  /  Closest April 12 - Biden +3.4%  /  Peak July 2 - Biden +9.6%  /  Current - Biden +7.4%

Current Average States: Arizona - Biden +4.6%  /  Florida - Biden +2.8%  /  Michigan - Biden +6.7%  /  North Carolina - Biden +1.8%

Ohio - Trump +1.8%  /  Pennsylvania - Biden +4.5%  /  Texas - Trump +0.5%  /  Wisconsin - Biden +7.3%

Real Clear Politics Poll Average - Biden +7.0% 

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2020/president/us/general_election_trump_vs_biden

Real Clear Politics Electoral Vote Estimate (Current - Based on Poll Averages by State) - Biden 352 / Trump 186

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/president/2020_elections_electoral_college_map

270 To Win Electoral Map Based on Polls - Biden - 279 / Trump - 116 / Toss-up - 143  https://www.270towin.com/maps/biden-trump-polling-map

[chez]

There are some people who think you should wear it all the time you're out.  They feel you're selfish if you don't. 

My point is everyone draws the line differently.  Some people think the economy should be open more even if the risk of infection and sickness and death goes up.  They feel that loss of their business or job is more critical than the extra chance of getting Covid.  How are they selfish?  Don't they have a right to eat and feed and house their families?  Wouldn't it be selfish of those who insist they stop working instead and become homeless and hungry?  Why do people on the left and socialists always bring up selfishness - of others? They never can see the broader view that self-interest and standards affect everyone's line drawing.

Who says someone is selfish if they don't wear a mask if you are out alone away from people. Are you just making things up here?

As far as feeding ones family...how does wearing a mask in crowded places prohibit one from feeding their family. I don't follow your logic...but that isn't anything new.

[Craig Lamson]

So Bolton is credible now?  Ok. Lets go with that. Sound good?

You guys sure like him and he sure hates Trump.  Yea, let’s go with that. He can’t be wrong on everything.  Heck he told John Roberts if he had heard Trump say the things they say he said that he(Bolton) would have written two chapters on it.

At this point Bolton has nothing left to gain.  His book has peaked.  His 15 mins are Overand they are not coming back.  What does he have to gain or lose now?

[Craig Lamson]

Current Poll Averages

538 Polling Average - https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/polls/president-general/national/

Recent Polling Average History: March 1 - Biden +4.1%  /  Closest April 12 - Biden +3.4%  /  Peak July 2 - Biden +9.6%  /  Current - Biden +7.4%

Current Average States: Arizona - Biden +4.6%  /  Florida - Biden +2.8%  /  Michigan - Biden +6.7%  /  North Carolina - Biden +1.8%

Ohio - Trump +1.8%  /  Pennsylvania - Biden +4.5%  /  Texas - Trump +0.5%  /  Wisconsin - Biden +7.3%

Real Clear Politics Poll Average - Biden +7.0% 

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2020/president/us/general_election_trump_vs_biden

Real Clear Politics Electoral Vote Estimate (Current - Based on Poll Averages by State) - Biden 352 / Trump 186

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/president/2020_elections_electoral_college_map

270 To Win Electoral Map Based on Polls - Biden - 279 / Trump - 116 / Toss-up - 143  https://www.270towin.com/maps/biden-trump-polling-map

Hillary has a 90 Something percent chance of winning on election night...remember that little ditty?   Something spooked Joe Hiden out of the basement early...his internal polling must look horrible. 

[Alan Klein]

Who says someone is selfish if they don't wear a mask if you are out alone away from people. Are you just making things up here?

As far as feeding ones family...how does wearing a mask in crowded places prohibit one from feeding their family. I don't follow your logic...but that isn't anything new.

You're playing word games.  I specifically said people who want the economy shut down come hell or high water.  They're the ones who call people selfish who want to work and feed their families.  Re-read my post. 

[chez]

You're playing word games.  I specifically said people who want the economy shut down come hell or high water.  They're the ones who call people selfish who want to work and feed their families.  Re-read my post.

What's that got to do with not wearing masks and my labeling them as selfish?

[Alan Klein]

What's that got to do with not wearing masks and my labeling them as selfish?

I was making a broader point.

[Alan Klein]

The divide between Portland and the rest of the state of Oregon seems very wide. A gun shop in a nearby little town sold 4 1/2 million rounds of ammunition.  I always figured Oregon as being folksy and quiet, a place to go shoot pictures not guns.


https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/05/us/portland-political-chasm-protests-unrest.html

[James Clark]

You guys sure like him and he sure hates Trump.  Yea, let’s go with that. He can’t be wrong on everything.  Heck he told John Roberts if he had heard Trump say the things they say he said that he(Bolton) would have written two chapters on it.

I don't for a second "like" Bolton.  He's a one-note foreign policy hawk that often drifts much (much) further from my own ideas about foreign relations than Trump does.  The point is that there's no logic in thinking everything Bolton says about Trump's fitness for office is "fake" or fabricated, except the one thing he says that supports what you believe.

At this point Bolton has nothing left to gain.  His book has peaked.  His 15 mins are Overand they are not coming back.  What does he have to gain or lose now?

Same thing anyone else coming-out of the administration does, I guess.  Attention, airtime, ongoing sales of his material of time.   Thing is, everyone coming out that's no longer benefitting from the association with Trump says pretty much the exact same thing - that's he's narcissistic, unwilling to be educated, aimless on policy, and verging on incompetent.   What do THEY have to gain? That tune's been played so many times by now that there no more profit in that than in being a pro-Trump lackey that makes the rounds on Charlie Kirk's show, or Ben Shapiro's, or Hannity's.

I'd have more respect for you Trumpy guys at this point if you'd just admit that he's an incompetent a-hole, but you care more about making your perceived "enemies" mad than you do about a competent president.

[Alan Klein]

I don't for a second "like" Bolton.  He's a one-note foreign policy hawk that often drifts much (much) further from my own ideas about foreign relations than Trump does.  The point is that there's no logic in thinking everything Bolton says about Trump's fitness for office is "fake" or fabricated, except the one thing he says that supports what you believe.

Same thing anyone else coming-out of the administration does, I guess.  Attention, airtime, ongoing sales of his material of time.   Thing is, everyone coming out that's no longer benefitting from the association with Trump says pretty much the exact same thing - that's he's narcissistic, unwilling to be educated, aimless on policy, and verging on incompetent.   What do THEY have to gain? That tune's been played so many times by now that there no more profit in that than in being a pro-Trump lackey that makes the rounds on Charlie Kirk's show, or Ben Shapiro's, or Hannity's.

I'd have more respect for you Trumpy guys at this point if you'd just admit that he's an incompetent a-hole, but you care more about making your perceived "enemies" mad than you do about a competent president.

But Trump's not incompetent.  He may be a loudmouth narcissist.  But he gets things done.  Biden's the one who's incompetent and lacks the wherewithal to be an effective president.

[Craig Lamson]

I don't for a second "like" Bolton.  He's a one-note foreign policy hawk that often drifts much (much) further from my own ideas about foreign relations than Trump does.  The point is that there's no logic in thinking everything Bolton says about Trump's fitness for office is "fake" or fabricated, except the one thing he says that supports what you believe.

I don't have to "believe it".  It was confirmed by many on the record accounts.  Logic says that no one is always true or always false.  In this instance logic, backed by on the record accounts, seems to make Boltons statement on this matter true.  You are better than this James.

Same thing anyone else coming-out of the administration does, I guess.  Attention, airtime, ongoing sales of his material of time.   Thing is, everyone coming out that's no longer benefitting from the association with Trump says pretty much the exact same thing - that's he's narcissistic, unwilling to be educated, aimless on policy, and verging on incompetent.   What do THEY have to gain? That tune's been played so many times by now that there no more profit in that than in being a pro-Trump lackey that makes the rounds on Charlie Kirk's show, or Ben Shapiro's, or Hannity's.

The problem here James is you are forgetting why some of these folks are having a hard time.  A lot of it is the cancel culture from the left.  When you have the press and others stating they want former Trump administration officials to never work again, it says a lot about the values of the left.   

I'd have more respect for you Trumpy guys at this point if you'd just admit that he's an incompetent a-hole, but you care more about making your perceived "enemies" mad than you do about a competent president.

The problem is he is not incompetent.  He has had a great run in the last three years even against the constant headwind of liberal America.  Thats why his supporters still support him, because we like what he's done.  I don't care if he's obnoxious, he gets things I want done, done.   He's my a-hole, and I'll be happy to keep him. Biden, not so much.  He's your incompetent a-hole.

You get it all wrong here James.  This is not about making you mad, its about what we want for our country.  Making the lefts heads explode is a side beni...

Let me ask you the question eveyone likes to ask at this time of the election season, but I'm going to preface it to pre covid.  Are you better or or worse off now than than you were four years ago?  Or switch it around if you wish and tell us what Trump has done to hurt your life?  I had to honestly say that my life was better off after the Obama years.  What do you say?

[Peter McLennan]

But Trump's not incompetent.  He may be a loudmouth narcissist.  But he gets things done.  ...

He's demonstrated time and time again that he's not qualified for the office he currently holds.
He's divided America like we've never seen in recent times.
He incites hate and violence.
He cozies up to the world's most despicable dictators.
He's alienated most of America's friends and allies.
He's delivered on nearly zero of his campaign promises.
He's tanked America's economy with his consistently ignorant treatment of the COVID crisis.
He can't speak intelligently without a script on any subject.
He lies habitually and continuously about things that are easily disproven.
His businesses exhibit multiple, consistent failures, even casino operations.
He cheats at everything; even at his own leisure time activities.

Let's hear your list, Alan, of "he gets things done".

[Alan Klein]

He's demonstrated time and time again that he's not qualified for the office he currently holds.
He's divided America like we've never seen in recent times.
He incites hate and violence.
He cozies up to the world's most despicable dictators.
He's alienated most of America's friends and allies.
He's delivered on nearly zero of his campaign promises.
He's tanked America's economy with his consistently ignorant treatment of the COVID crisis.
He can't speak intelligently without a script on any subject.
He lies habitually and continuously about things that are easily disproven.
His businesses exhibit multiple, consistent failures, even casino operations.
He cheats at everything; even at his own leisure time activities.

Let's hear your list, Alan, of "he gets things done".

This list is pre-Covid I believe.  But even in that area, he's best qualified to bring the economy back.

http://lc.org/PDFs/Trump.Accomplishments.FINAL.pdf

[LesPalenik]

This list is pre-Covid I believe.  But even in that area, he's best qualified to bring the economy back.

http://lc.org/PDFs/Trump.Accomplishments.FINAL.pdf

From his existing record, it doesn't appear that he is qualified or capable to make good business decisions and deals.

[Alan Klein]

From his existing record, it doesn't appear that he is qualified or capable to make good business decisions and deals.

He's worth 3 1/2 billion.  A lot more than I'm worth.

[LesPalenik]

He's worth 3 1/2 billion.  A lot more than I'm worth.

It's one thing to make a business decisions for himself and another thing for the country. BTW, with how many billions did he start?

[Alan Klein]

It's one thing to make a business decisions for himself and another thing for the country. BTW, with how many billions did he start?

Well, I'm not happy that he created a trillion in debt even before the virus.  He believes in printing.  Unfortunately, Biden will be worse. He'll take on every Socialist dream of AOC and the left that will put America in the toilet economically forever.

Trump did some decent legislation that lowered business taxes.  That helped the economy and increased the number of jobs.  Re-doing NAFTA helped and he's trying to get China to stop stealing our inventions and ripping us off, work that isn't yet complete.  Eliminating a lot of over-regulation helped business.  Opening up oil and gas exploration and fracking helped.

[Peter McLennan]

This list is pre-Covid I believe.  But even in that area, he's best qualified to bring the economy back.

http://lc.org/PDFs/Trump.Accomplishments.FINAL.pdf

Alan, I asked for your opinion, not that of a right wing organization that, among other things, threatened a Florida public library with legal action for allowing readings of Harry Potter books.

For those interested, here's a wikipedia link to the originators of Alan's PDF

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberty_Counsel


BTW, regarding Trump's 3 billion net worth:  do you have any verification of that figure?  Other than Trump's assertions, that is.

[Alan Klein]

Alan, I asked for your opinion, not that of a right wing organization that, among other things, threatened a Florida public library with legal action for allowing readings of Harry Potter books.

For those interested, here's a wikipedia link to the originators of Alan's PDF

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberty_Counsel


BTW, regarding Trump's 3 billion net worth:  do you have any verification of that figure?  Other than Trump's assertions, that is.

You didn't ask for my opinion but a list.  The list is accurate. Forbes estimated his wealth when he became president at 3 1/2 billion.   You can google it.