Color profiling the Epson V850 Pro scanner

[degrub]

Alan,

There are very good tutorials on how to setup Silverfast, do scanner calibration, use icc profiles,  and how to scan with it to produce quality files. There are some here on LuLa on the main site. Mark even wrote a user guide book that walks you through it all. We all went through the experience.

The worst thing you can do is take a scattershot approach. That will get you nothing but frustration. This takes very deliberate steps to execute and learn the process. Once you get that down, it usually flows easily and reliably.

If you only want to scan for the web, EpsonScan will likely be good enough. If you want more than that, invest the time to learn the procedures with Silverfast and some of the colour science behind making a quality scan from whatever media you have. Scanning and lightroom or photoshop don’t work miracles with poor photos or prints, but they can get get you something usable.

[Alan Klein]

The V850 comes with Silverfast SE Plus 8.  Do I have to upgrade it?  Does SE Plus 8 include Negafix to match the various films?  Is Negafix for only negatives or does it include chromes? What is the relationship between the scan I did of the furnished positive to create the ICC profile with Negafix? 

With Epsonscan I found that scanning flat without no color,correction would be OK.  Then someone said I should set the levels (black and white points) to each side of the histogram and set the output to 0-255.  Then scan with no other adjustments.  Their argument for this is you get better spread of the bits in the file before suing it with your post editing program.  While I've done it, I've never been convinced this really is doing anything more that a little post processing itself with Epsonscan.  What do you think?

[MichaelKoerner]

Then someone said I should set the levels (black and white points) to each side of the histogram and set the output to 0-255.  Then scan with no other adjustments.  Their argument for this is you get better spread of the bits in the file before suing it with your post editing program.  While I've done it, I've never been convinced this really is doing anything more that a little post processing itself with Epsonscan.  What do you think?

My research on V750 (different light, but basically technically the same) arised that this devices are NOT able to change the lighting or the sensitivity of it's CCDs. So everything except flat scanning is post pro, as you say.

[saiguy]

Alan,

SilverFast web site shows that SF SE 8 Plus has NegaFix but does not have Auto IT-8 calibration. You calibrate the scanner so it will give you more accurate colors. Just like you do for your monitor. There is no ICC to pass on with the file. You can embed a color space, sRGB, ARGB, etc.

Talk about flat scans or no adjustments is rather useless. You want to get the best scan and that requires using the scan software tools. At a minimum you set a neutral white point. I set mine at about 242 so there is head room to increase it in LR which does it in a more intelligent way protecting against blow out. The first adjustment I do is to click ACC, [automatic color correction] and that sets my desired white point and removes color cast in the bright levels. This must be set up in the Preferences as to how ACC will work. The default setting will work but give a higher white than I want.

I set a neutral black point manually in the Histogram Tool, [SF speak for Levels]. You do this for each RGB channel.

If this is all you do you will have a good scan. But I will use the color correction tools to fix issues in the mid tones.

NegaFix works like magic. If you know what film you have you just choose that profile. Otherwise you try different profiles till you find one that does well.

If you upgrade to SF 8 Ai I can share my preferences. This is the most confusing part for most learners IMHO.

[Alan Klein]

Alan,

SilverFast web site shows that SF SE 8 Plus has NegaFix but does not have Auto IT-8 calibration. You calibrate the scanner so it will give you more accurate colors. Just like you do for your monitor. There is no ICC to pass on with the file. You can embed a color space, sRGB, ARGB, etc.

Talk about flat scans or no adjustments is rather useless. You want to get the best scan and that requires using the scan software tools. At a minimum you set a neutral white point. I set mine at about 242 so there is head room to increase it in LR which does it in a more intelligent way protecting against blow out. The first adjustment I do is to click ACC, [automatic color correction] and that sets my desired white point and removes color cast in the bright levels. This must be set up in the Preferences as to how ACC will work. The default setting will work but give a higher white than I want.

I set a neutral black point manually in the Histogram Tool, [SF speak for Levels]. You do this for each RGB channel.

If this is all you do you will have a good scan. But I will use the color correction tools to fix issues in the mid tones.

NegaFix works like magic. If you know what film you have you just choose that profile. Otherwise you try different profiles till you find one that does well.

If you upgrade to SF 8 Ai I can share my preferences. This is the most confusing part for most learners IMHO.

Does Negafix work also on chrome's or just negative color films?

[degrub]

Alan,

Negafix removes the orange mask on negatives when they are scanned. That is all it is intended for. Silverfast profiled a large number of different negative film types So it is simple to use.
Positives or transparencies or “slides” are scanned the normal way, just like with Epson Scan.

There are videos on the Silverfast web site if you want to see how the tool is used.

[Alan Klein]

Alan,

Negafix removes the orange mask on negatives when they are scanned. That is all it is intended for. Silverfast profiled a large number of different negative film types So it is simple to use.
Positives or transparencies or “slides” are scanned the normal way, just like with Epson Scan.

There are videos on the Silverfast web site if you want to see how the tool is used.

So I intend to shoot positives like Velvia 50.  What will Silverfast SE Plus 8 that came with the V850 do for me?  Does it calibrate my scanner to the ICC profile target that came with the Xrite i1 tranaparency?  How does that relate to the Velvia 50 film I'm shooting since nothing is tell the scanner what my film is other than it's positive film.?

[Alan Klein]

Xrite also came with a reflective target that I scanned in and created and ICC profile.  What is it used for and which programs can use it?

[degrub]

reflective targets only are for reflective scanning.
Transparency targets are for transparency scanning.
There are no targets for negatives.

 If SF is too much of a learning curve, you could try Vuescan pro. It works with all scanners, you buy only one copy, and it will support what you want to do, probably better than EpsonScan.  It is free to try out. and modest cost if you like it.
 

[Alan Klein]

So I'm trying to understand.  Excuse me but it's very confusing.  Epson scanner V850 that I bought was furnished with i1 Xrite color target for transparencies and reflective.  But I can only use them with Silverfast or Vuescan. However, the Silverfast SE Plus 8 that came included  with the Epson can't use IT8 targets.  For IT8 targets I need to upgrade SIlverfast and pay more money for SE Ai STudio or another of the software?  Can I use the transparencies and reflective ICC's with SE Plus 8?  What is the difference between IT8 target and the i1 Xrite color targets that came with the V850.  Also, I can;t use SE PLus 8 that came with the V850 for negative film.  For that I need negafix which which SE Plus 8 doesn't support.  Why do I feel like I've been sucked into a cheaper deal only to be traded up to something more expensive?  Thank you Epson. 

[degrub]

Hang on to your horses....
Using the i1 profiler package for reflictive and transparencies with Epson Scan
http://www.stockholmviews.com/epson_v850/v850-page2.html

The reviewer goes on to cover Silverfast and Vuescan.
It is a basic introduction “how to “.

Yes, the included version of Silverfast is not the full package - it was a marketing move by Epson and a low cost intro to a wider market for LaserSoft from their traditional professional scanning market.

Scanning is not a trivial skill to learn. It is not push the button. There is no magic.
There are a basic set of steps you have to follow to do a reasonable scan no matter which software you use.
There are tutorials on here and several of the posters have written books on how to scan and correct images. Even if you do not end up using Silverfast, the process is the same, just the tools are different. You could start with Sascha Steinhoff‘s books on scanning slides and negatives, and the Vuescan Bible.

Mark Segal has several tutorials here on using Silverfast. The workflow is basically the same

https://luminous-landscape.com/scanning-with-silverfast/

https://luminous-landscape.com/scanning-workflows-with-silverfast-8/

It is overwhelming at first, but if you follow the steps you will get better at it. Learning this stuff takes a lot of practice and mistakes. Just like learning to use a new camera. Once you get the fundamentals worked out for exposure, dof, and framing of shots,  it is a matter of learning the user interface of the new camera.

[Alan Klein]

Hang on to your horses....
Using the i1 profiler package for reflictive and transparencies with Epson Scan
http://www.stockholmviews.com/epson_v850/v850-page2.html

The reviewer goes on to cover Silverfast and Vuescan.
It is a basic introduction “how to “.

Yes, the included version of Silverfast is not the full package - it was a marketing move by Epson and a low cost intro to a wider market for LaserSoft from their traditional professional scanning market.

Scanning is not a trivial skill to learn. It is not push the button

Thanks for that link.  It explains a lot, that I can use the two x rite profiles with Epsonscan.  I was told here I couldn't.  Maybe they work for Silverfast.  OK  I'll try it and see how it works.  This is stuff Epson should have provided.  Anyway thanks for the assistance. 

[Alan Klein]

OK So I right clicked on the two profiles as explained in the procedure to Install Profile.  I opened Epsonscan.  But the two profiles were not in ICM that I could see.  There were two blank slots that I could select.  But no description.  See picture.
 

[Alan Klein]

Here's another picture with the Target selections show RGB and Monitor but that the two profiles in questions.

[degrub]

I don’t use either of those programs. I am guessing that the profile is not in the correct folder or if it is, that EpsonScan does not have security access to the file or the file is not in the correct format either file extension or an internal format.

You are running it under Win10 ?
Are you able to find the Epson default profile file ?

[Alan Klein]

Here's the two ICC profile stored in Windows that I right clicked to install but didn't show up.  DO these files have to be in some special Epson folder instead of where they're located now?

[degrub]

See the last post here
https://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/4199578

[degrub]

That is for the printer icc profiles, i believe, not for the scanner profiles.
The \spool\ folder indicates for print spooler.

[Alan Klein]

I recall setting Versions 2.  But I tried it again and created the two profiles gain to make sure.  Then hit Install Profiles.  There are now 4 empty slots.  It's as if they are there.  It's just that the files names don't show.  The spaces are blank.  See picture below.

[Alan Klein]

The only line that is named is the original one that came with the Epsonscan software: EPSON Standard