Epson Surecolor P900 lust

[KeithR]

That is what I have done over the years but they won't fit in the 900. If you tried to reset chips on the 800, epson firmware locks you out. When I made the decision to update my printers, I contacted Jon Cone and asked about a timetable for new chips/carts & color inks for the 900 and he replied that at least 3 - 5 years before anything could be made, so who knows when it may happen.
However, the 4800 is over 16 years old technology and I have already replaced the heads in previous printers and the 3rd one which is running fine now but the future is coming to an end in the short time. I was informed that replacement parts are no longer being made. I had two that I ended up taking to the recycler as nobody wanted them, even for parts. Selling on the bay, given the cost of shipping would have cost more than what would get for selling it. My current 4800 is running piezography just fine now but for how long? It's only a matter of time.

[Dan Wells]

An interesting situation in desktop printers to be sure... I was surprised by the cartridge-size decisions on both the Canon Pro-300 and the two new Epsons. That said, the very short life on the initial inks with the P700 may be strictly an initial ink problem - that ink is essentially going into the hoses. A 13" printer with 25ml cartridges isn't going to have great cartridge life, but it may not be as abysmal after the first set (having to buy a set of ink with the printer is very unfortunate, though). Keith Cooper often keeps printers a while (and is on here from time to time) - if he still has the P700, it'll be interesting to see what his longer-term experience with ink consumption is.

Looking at B&H's website, the P700 makes NO sense, compared to its own P900 stablemate. The two are effectively the same price unless the P900 comes with underfilled ink cartridges (P700 is $800 plus an immediate set of spare inks for $379). The P900 is $1200, but comes with inks that are twice as large - it effectively comes with that first set of spare inks. Each ink for the P700 is $37.99, while the P900 inks are $41.99 for twice as much ink! The P900 should leave some ink after setup (again, assuming the initial cartridges are full), because the longer hoses will only take a few ml more to fill, while the cartridges have an extra 25ml. Unfortunately, they use the same maintenance cartridge (fortunately, it's cheap) - that's going to fill even faster on the P900, because it has slightly longer hoses.

I was very surprised to see those tiny inks in Canon's Pro-300. I thought we'd left low-end desktop cartridges in high-end photo printers behind a while ago. it's not the same ink inside, but it's a very similar cartridge to what's in Canon's $100 printers, and it just doesn't hold enough ink for a $800 13" printer.

The Pro-1000 is an older printer, but it uses a top-end modern inkset. It's identical to what's in Canon's current big roll printers, and it actually uses the same head as well. The ink cost per ml is about 25% higher than for the big roll machines ($700 for a set of 80 ml cartridges, while 160ml carts for the roll printers are $1150 per set, for twice the ink). Will Canon release a "Pro-1200" soon? If so, will it be similar to what they did to the Pro-2000, 4000, 6000 lineup last year when they introduced the Pro-x100 versions (user interface and paper handling improvements, but same inks, heads and print engine)? Or will we see some of the ink improvements from the Pro-300 migrate into a full 12-color inkset?

The only other high-end desktop printer out there is Epson's P5000, and it's big enough that if you have space for it, you can probably fit a 24" printer. Depending on rebates, it also may not be much cheaper...

[Ferp]

.... unless the P900 comes with underfilled ink cartridges

That's highly likely in my view.  Almost guaranteed.  I'll be shocked if it doesn't.  Epson have a hidden increase in the price of these printers, compared to their predecessors, in that you need to buy a new set of cartridges with the printer.  That's no small thing.

[KeithR]

On the B&H website,  it states that it comes with "starter cartridges".  I  believe that's a hint that they're not fully complete carts.

[IPDOUGLAS]

If Canon do replace the Imageprograf Pro 1000 then they need to fix the cartridge jam design fault that is writing off printers and sending them to the dump!    Also it is vitally important to any purchasers of the dwindling stock of Pro 1000s that they understand they should not be powered off at night and MUST be printed on every 60 hours (at least) to prevent excessive cleaning cycles and ink dumping into the maintenance cartridge.   It is this latter issue that must be addressed in any replacement!

As far as my experience with the Pro 1000s in other respects I never had a misfeed of paper nor any nozzle blockage issues.    It is the latter that scares me with the as yet unproven new Epsons - is the commonly reported nozzle blockages of the older models to some extent overcome?

These sort of matters do not concern professionals so much as they can off the maintenance contracts and breakdowns in costs to their customers but enthusiasts like me pay ourselves.  Nonetheless I am sure Pros do not want breakdowns or issues either.

I think Keith Cooper summed up Epsons new printers with his opinion that he feels Epson may have scored a marketing home-goal in downsizing ink cartridge volumes, providing an inadequately sized maintenance cartridge and over-pricing the P700 inks.  Two out of these could be addressed by providing larger ink volumes and reducing prices but the maintenance cartridge size I doubt could be overcome?  Perhaps a larger one that sticks out of the front (ugly but practical)?

[FabienP]

As far as my experience with the Pro 1000s in other respects I never had a misfeed of paper nor any nozzle blockage issues.    It is the latter that scares me with the as yet unproven new Epsons - is the commonly reported nozzle blockages of the older models to some extent overcome?

These sort of matters do not concern professionals so much as they can off the maintenance contracts and breakdowns in costs to their customers but enthusiasts like me pay ourselves.  Nonetheless I am sure Pros do not want breakdowns or issues either.

I think Keith Cooper summed up Epsons new printers with his opinion that he feels Epson may have scored a marketing home-goal in downsizing ink cartridge volumes, providing an inadequately sized maintenance cartridge and over-pricing the P700 inks. Two out of these could be addressed by providing larger ink volumes and reducing prices but the maintenance cartridge size I doubt could be overcome?  Perhaps a larger one that sticks out of the front (ugly but practical)?

Ink clogs were pretty much a non-issue on the previous generation of Epson printers so they should have this under control until they change inks or printheads dramatically.

I wouldn't expect much last minute changes based on the initial reception of the new models. The best we can expect is a free maintenance cart and revised prices at some point. I have to agree that the P700 barely makes sense when the smaller ink carts are almost as expensive as the larger ones in the P900.

Cheers,
Fabien

[dgberg]

Why not go straight to a P6000 barely over $2,000.
700 ml ink carts at around .35 a ml compared to $1.50 for the P700 and you can print to 24"
A no brainer.

[Dan Wells]

The big printers are certainly a better deal, but they aren't necessarily practical for smaller spaces, or if you ever move...

[Tibor O]

Why not go straight to a P6000 barely over $2,000.

How does a P6000 or a P7000 or a P7500 handle A3, A3+ and A2 size sheets?

Cost here is 2,025 € for a P5000, 2,232 € for a P6000, 2,427 € for a P7000 and 2,940 for a P7500.

Is it worth waiting for a P5100?

[dgberg]

With our 9900 and P8000 we run a sheet or two maybe once a year. Never had any problem.
We also have a trusty 3880 and P800 that both take sheets very well. I would say 99% of all of our prints are off rolls.

[nirpat89]

P5000 is $1395 after rebate right now....

[Jeremy Roussak]

How does a P6000 or a P7000 or a P7500 handle A3, A3+ and A2 size sheets?

The SC-P7500 handles cut sheets very nicely. There's a slightly larger margin at the trailing edge but the feed is easy.

Jeremy

[Jager]

One of the singular, great qualities of the 3800/3880/P800 series of printers was/is their solid reliability even when used intermittently.  That made them a great choice for the serious amateur (or professional) who wasn't printing every day or every week.  Presumably the P900 will continue that reliability tradition, its ink cart size / ink cost woes notwithstanding.

Epson's larger full-on professional models presume a much steadier diet of ink and paper, lest one fall into the hell of constant cleaning cycles.  That was never more true than for the much lamented 4000 series, which reportedly made beautiful prints half the time... but then spent the other half of the time puking ink into its maintenance cart.

The reviews I've seen suggest that the P-5000 did little to improve that reliability.  I'd buy one in a heartbeat if they did.

[IPDOUGLAS]

One of the singular, great qualities of the 3800/3880/P800 series of printers was/is their solid reliability even when used intermittently.  That made them a great choice for the serious amateur (or professional) who wasn't printing every day or every week.  Presumably the P900 will continue that reliability tradition, its ink cart size / ink cost woes notwithstanding.

Epson's larger full-on professional models presume a much steadier diet of ink and paper, lest one fall into the hell of constant cleaning cycles.  That was never more true than for the much lamented 4000 series, which reportedly made beautiful prints half the time... but then spent the other half of the time puking ink into its maintenance cart.

The reviews I've seen suggest that the P-5000 did little to improve that reliability.  I'd buy one in a heartbeat if they did.

I am not aware that the P700 or P900 have come with any assurances of a continuation the the policy you refer to above?   Canon certainly (at the same price point as the P900) DID NOT adopt this policy and as such the Imageprograf Pro 1000 ate ink like there was no tomorrow.  The only way to prevent almost constant cleaning cycles was to print every 24 hours!  OK for a commercial shop but not for enthusiast photographers unless they have a prodigious output of prints.

Epson might have seen this opportunity that Canon had to print money and changed their policy?   Perhaps someone could get an 'official' reply from Epson that cleaning cycles will not be enforced so regularly and what period can elapse between them?   A lack of an answer from any approach would indicate they are following Canon and that would be a disaster.

[nirpat89]

I am not aware that the P700 or P900 have come with any assurances of a continuation the the policy you refer to above?   Canon certainly (at the same price point as the P900) DID NOT adopt this policy and as such the Imageprograf Pro 1000 ate ink like there was no tomorrow.  The only way to prevent almost constant cleaning cycles was to print every 24 hours!  OK for a commercial shop but not for enthusiast photographers unless they have a prodigious output of prints.

Epson might have seen this opportunity that Canon had to print money and changed their policy?   Perhaps someone could get an 'official' reply from Epson that cleaning cycles will not be enforced so regularly and what period can elapse between them?   A lack of an answer from any approach would indicate they are following Canon and that would be a disaster.

One thing I love about my HP B9180 (yes that ancient piece of history) is that if you lower the special tray that feeds the paper from the front, it never goes into any kind of maintenance mode.  Early on I realize that the maintenance cycles created more problems than anything else, including clogging up the heads all by themselves, not to mention the waste of inks and gunking up the inside with ink spray.  So once I stopped all that by leaving the tray open.  Every once in a while I will close the tray and print a few test pages and it's good to go once again.  I have left it like that for weeks at a time with never a clog.

I wonder if there is anything like that in any of the Epsons or Canons.

:Niranjan.

[Jager]

I am not aware that the P700 or P900 have come with any assurances of a continuation the the policy you refer to above?   Canon certainly (at the same price point as the P900) DID NOT adopt this policy and as such the Imageprograf Pro 1000 ate ink like there was no tomorrow.  The only way to prevent almost constant cleaning cycles was to print every 24 hours!  OK for a commercial shop but not for enthusiast photographers unless they have a prodigious output of prints.

Epson might have seen this opportunity that Canon had to print money and changed their policy?   Perhaps someone could get an 'official' reply from Epson that cleaning cycles will not be enforced so regularly and what period can elapse between them?   A lack of an answer from any approach would indicate they are following Canon and that would be a disaster.

No, of course Epson is not providing any assurances of reliability with respect to the P900, just as they haven't with any of their previous models.  Quite the contrary... their marketing folks would have you believe that all their printers are perfectly reliable!

But gather enough anecdotal evidence from enough folks doing serious printing - such as those on this forum right here - and a picture starts to emerge.  Based upon that, as well as my own personal experience - I have owned and operated all the P900 predecessors - I am confident in saying that Epson's line of prosumer 17-inch pigment printers have provided yeoman, reliable service for the vast majority of their owners, even when operated intermittently.  Absent a major head redesign - something that's possible, of course - I'd be surprised if that tradition of reliability doesn't continue in the P900.  But, yes, that's just a guess.

I won't be buying one.  But that's because of the ridiculously small ink cart size, not because of reliability concerns.

[Jamooche]

One of the singular, great qualities of the 3800/3880/P800 series of printers was/is their solid reliability even when used intermittently.  That made them a great choice for the serious amateur (or professional) who wasn't printing every day or every week.  Presumably the P900 will continue that reliability tradition, its ink cart size / ink cost woes notwithstanding.

I agree completely and can go many months without even turning the printer on with no clogs or problems.  The main issue now is that the 3880 ink has gotten so expensive it finally makes some sense to upgrade printers to the P900 to gain all the new features.

[FabienP]

The P800 and P900 are unique offerings in the sense that all other 17" printers are much heavier and bulkier. The nearest alternative would be a Canon PRO-1000 (32 kg) compared to the P900 (16 kg). The smaller cartridges play an important role in the downsizing of the printer. These products are not meant for high volume printing.

According to the Epson UK rep in this video, the P900 is shipped with a set of full 50 ml initial cartridges. If true, that alone would cover the cost of the upgrade from a P700.

Cheers,
Fabien

[IPDOUGLAS]

FabienP,
                The Canon Imageprograf Pro 1000 is not designed for bulk printing either!  Mine lasted less than 2 years with like enthusiast printing.  In fact it was asking for more ink from 6 cartridges after only 30 A3s and 6 A4 prints?  While something heavy might seem better and something light less worthwhile that is not necessarily important.   After complaining to Canon that my so-called Pro printer had failed with an in-built design issue I was met with a roaring silence?  However the design fault proved to be well documented on the Canon USA community forum.

A Pro product needs more than weight it needs company backing when it fails early and replacement.

[KeithR]

According to the Epson UK rep in this video, the P900 is shipped with a set of full 50 ml initial cartridges. If true, that alone would cover the cost of the upgrade from a P700

This might be true for the UK market (however Keith Cooper in his review of the P700 indicated that the carts that were supplied with his model was barely enough to do do the initial fill). On the B&H site, it clearly states "starter cartridges" whatever that means, we'll not know until it ships.