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Author Topic: Do we really need bracketed exposures and HDR programs anymore?  (Read 6934 times)

Frans Waterlander

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I want to preface this discussion by excluding the areas of HDR imaging that some described as "clown vomit": exaggerated effects way outside of realistic and indoor real estate photography with its stark differences in brightness between the indoors and outside. Maybe there are other specialized areas needing bracketing and HDR programs that fall outside of this discussion. So my ramblings should apply to general photography.

DSLR camera dynamic ranges have improved significantly over the years as have tone mapping capabilities of RAW converters like Adobe's ACR. So, it seems to me that there is less of a need for bracketing and HDR programs for most shooting conditions.

I have run experiments using the Grand Canyon, Manhattan and Queen Mary sets of bracketed RAW images on the DVD that came with Christian Bloch's HDR Handbook 2.0.
Step 1 was to merge those images in Photomatix 6.1 and select the most pleasing (to my eye) Realistic renderings. Step 2 was to import the single, middle-exposure images into Photoshop Elements and tweak them in ACR and after RAW conversion to come as close as possible to the results obtained with merging the sets of bracketing images in Photomatix.
The results I got with Elements were equal to the results with Photomatix in terms of image quality, visible noise without pixel-peeping, colors, clarity, etc.

What say you?
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digitaldog

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Re: Do we really need bracketed exposures and HDR programs anymore?
« Reply #1 on: April 15, 2020, 08:39:25 pm »

Answer: Yes, many times we do. When we wish to fully capture scenes that exceeded a cameras limited DR.
DSLR camera dynamic ranges have improved significantly. Not enough to capture the DR of many scenes.
Shown here, explained here:
http://www.lumita.com/site_media/work/whitepapers/files/pscs3_rendering_image.pdf
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fdisilvestro

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Re: Do we really need bracketed exposures and HDR programs anymore?
« Reply #2 on: April 15, 2020, 08:56:07 pm »

Yes, we still need them, maybe less often than a few years ago.

Even for a camera with improved dynamic range, depending on the illuminant PSD, you may end up with a severely underexposed raw channel.

langier

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Re: Do we really need bracketed exposures and HDR programs anymore?
« Reply #3 on: April 15, 2020, 09:01:07 pm »

I agree with Andrew, even shooting in "raw" constantly.

When I'm on the road and time is limited but the dynamic range is vast, I'll still do a three-shot hand-held HDR capture and hope they will align well in post. When I have the luxury of a tripod, it's an easy shoot. Last week, it was under "Hail Mary" lighting up 40 feet of scaffolding and where I couldn't put a tripod nor use the lowest ISO. So, it was a do a 3-shot bracket, -2, N & +2 and shoot away.

Using lots of noise-reduction and ACR's HDR did the job and both my clients and I were happy with the result.

IMO, HDR is useful for not only architecture but also for landscape at the edge of the day and many times better, more natural looking than using a grad ND in many ways.
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rdonson

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Re: Do we really need bracketed exposures and HDR programs anymore?
« Reply #4 on: April 15, 2020, 10:43:27 pm »

I'm with Andrew as well. 

While digital cameras are waaay better these days than 10 years ago there are still scenes where HDR gives me more latiude to work with.  I use Adobe HDR from Lightroom and Photomatix Pro 6.2 and in some rare cases Nik HDR Efex Pro 2.  I like to shoot in a wide range of lighting and yes, sometimes I take -2,0,+2 exposures as an insurance.  A lot may depend on what you're doing in post processing.  I don't always want to make an image that is a strict representation of the scene I saw and the latitude in the extremes is a boon at times.
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fdisilvestro

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Re: Do we really need bracketed exposures and HDR programs anymore?
« Reply #5 on: April 15, 2020, 11:24:50 pm »

What I find silly is that some cameras still have options to bracket in 1/3 EV up to 1 EV increment, a few 2EV.
Nowadays the minimum step might well be 2EV with the option of 4EV

mcbroomf

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Re: Do we really need bracketed exposures and HDR programs anymore?
« Reply #6 on: April 16, 2020, 06:48:18 am »

Yes here as well, and the good news is that with most software these days it's not difficult to get natural looking results.

I do agree with Francisco that 0.3ev increments are not needed but they can still be useful to ensure that the right exposure (a single exposure) is captured in a difficult situation.
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vjbelle

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Re: Do we really need bracketed exposures and HDR programs anymore?
« Reply #7 on: April 16, 2020, 07:39:05 am »

What I find silly is that some cameras still have options to bracket in 1/3 EV up to 1 EV increment, a few 2EV.
Nowadays the minimum step might well be 2EV with the option of 4EV

+1

Victor B
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MauriceRR

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Re: Do we really need bracketed exposures and HDR programs anymore?
« Reply #8 on: April 16, 2020, 03:09:57 pm »

Wether you are rendering one file or 10, if the dynamic of the scene hasa high contrast, you will need to remap correctly the values to make an hdr rendering. That means you need to compress a wide bunch of datas in a smaller one (at least your screen), and make it pleasant (enough contrasty, not to flat, not too fake, etc. There is a lot of method for tone mapping, many algorithms propose to do it automatically, but you can also do it by hand. Anyway, it's still an hdr rendering.

In my practice (mostly indoor architecture), I'm still doing bracketing on tripod. But most of the time I use only one picture : I use the maximum exposed picture to minimize noise, and get the wider dynamic possible, without clipping highlights of course.
Only sometimes I need to use a clipped picture, to use it for shadows : not often for shadow recovery, most often mainly for reducing noise in darks.
From my needs point of view, sensors have made enough progress that noise in darks became acceptable in mid-challenging situations. I save times using only one picture.
Of course, if you like taking pictures in forest clearings, maybe it won't be enough for your needs. All theese considerations relies first on scenes datas.
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gmitchel850

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Re: Do we really need bracketed exposures and HDR programs anymore?
« Reply #9 on: April 16, 2020, 08:38:29 pm »

I'll lend my voice to the chorus of "Yes, we do." My Canon 5D Mk IV has a very broad dynamic range, but it is still not equal to the human eye. There are situations where there is too much dynamic range in a scene for the camera to capture adequately.

Now, I do tend to use a three-shot bracket of +2, 0 -2 in such situations. Sometimes, even a five-shot bracket.

Cheers,

Mitch
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Alan Klein

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Re: Do we really need bracketed exposures and HDR programs anymore?
« Reply #10 on: April 16, 2020, 11:33:48 pm »

Yes here as well, and the good news is that with most software these days it's not difficult to get natural looking results.

I do agree with Francisco that 0.3ev increments are not needed but they can still be useful to ensure that the right exposure (a single exposure) is captured in a difficult situation.
Can't colors change as well even at 1/3 over or under exposure? So bracketing at 1/3 would assure the correct colors important for product shoots.

JaapD

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Re: Do we really need bracketed exposures and HDR programs anymore?
« Reply #11 on: April 17, 2020, 12:29:10 am »

What I find silly is that some cameras still have options to bracket in 1/3 EV up to 1 EV increment, a few 2EV.
Nowadays the minimum step might well be 2EV with the option of 4EV

Well, not completely. This is indeed correct if you’re merging 2 or more images in post.
However, there are many cases you’re unable to do so, for instance due to movement differences between the shots. Here you want to get everything right in one shot and then bracketing with half a stop or one stop may become handy. ETTR so to speak.

If we would only have RAW histograms…..

Regards,
Jaap.
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rdonson

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Re: Do we really need bracketed exposures and HDR programs anymore?
« Reply #12 on: April 17, 2020, 11:02:58 am »

If we would only have RAW histograms…..

Regards,
Jaap.

I wonder how the camera manufacturer would accomplish that.  Would it require demosaicing the scene in the camera? 
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Ron

digitaldog

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Re: Do we really need bracketed exposures and HDR programs anymore?
« Reply #13 on: April 17, 2020, 11:46:06 am »

I wonder how the camera manufacturer would accomplish that.  Would it require demosaicing the scene in the camera?
Some Phase backs provide such raw Histogram as can some Canon's with:
https://www.magiclantern.fm/
However it's done under the hood, it's doable and sadly rare. Because for some strange reason, most manufacturers don't want to (not can't). 😩
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fdisilvestro

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Re: Do we really need bracketed exposures and HDR programs anymore?
« Reply #14 on: April 17, 2020, 12:19:58 pm »

I wonder how the camera manufacturer would accomplish that.  Would it require demosaicing the scene in the camera?
It is actually the other way around. In order to show the sRGB or Adobe RGB histogram, the raw file is processed in camera. A raw histogram would not require it.

Frans Waterlander

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Re: Do we really need bracketed exposures and HDR programs anymore?
« Reply #15 on: April 17, 2020, 12:30:47 pm »

Really appreciate all your inputs. Would you care to comment on my experiments with Christian Bloch's bracketed shots?
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digitaldog

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Re: Do we really need bracketed exposures and HDR programs anymore?
« Reply #16 on: April 17, 2020, 12:33:36 pm »

Really appreciate all your inputs. Would you care to comment on my experiments with Christian Bloch's bracketed shots?
Well first of all, my first edition (2007) of the book came with no DVD with images and since you didn't (nor should you) attempt to upload them for some of us, no, I can't comment on something I (we) haven't seen from you nor can we without the images, try ourselves.
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DP

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Re: Do we really need bracketed exposures and HDR programs anymore?
« Reply #17 on: April 18, 2020, 11:52:15 am »

Would it require demosaicing the scene in the camera?

of course it is not required ... did you pause and think before writing this ? raw histogram is about the DNs from sensels per CFA filter ("foveons" of course different) .. granted you can instead also use histogram after demosaicking too - provided you did not apply WB and other modifications (any kind of LUTs)...  but histograms are quite useless (raw or not) - blinkies or zebras are much better because they show you the clipping (or might show you how close you are to) in place in the frame - or you can have some monochromatic "view mode" of the scene where lightness can be used to show you some map of how close you are to the clipping across the whole frame with clipped (in one or more raw channel) areas blinking in some color (add a different color blinking for areas where S/N is below a certain threshold too)... probably even better than regular blinkes/zebras we have now
« Last Edit: April 18, 2020, 11:58:11 am by DP »
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rdonson

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Re: Do we really need bracketed exposures and HDR programs anymore?
« Reply #18 on: April 20, 2020, 02:28:16 pm »

of course it is not required ... did you pause and think before writing this ? raw histogram is about the DNs from sensels per CFA filter ("foveons" of course different) .. granted you can instead also use histogram after demosaicking too - provided you did not apply WB and other modifications (any kind of LUTs)...  but histograms are quite useless (raw or not) - blinkies or zebras are much better because they show you the clipping (or might show you how close you are to) in place in the frame - or you can have some monochromatic "view mode" of the scene where lightness can be used to show you some map of how close you are to the clipping across the whole frame with clipped (in one or more raw channel) areas blinking in some color (add a different color blinking for areas where S/N is below a certain threshold too)... probably even better than regular blinkes/zebras we have now

Of course I thought about.  That's why I phrased it as a question.  I didn't know.  I bow to your wisdom. 

I'm glad you got the opportunity to show off though.

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Ron

digitaldog

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Re: Do we really need bracketed exposures and HDR programs anymore?
« Reply #19 on: April 20, 2020, 02:30:54 pm »

Of course I thought about.  That's why I phrased it as a question.  I didn't know.  I bow to your wisdom. 

I'm glad you got the opportunity to show off though.
+1
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