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Author Topic: Do we really need bracketed exposures and HDR programs anymore?  (Read 6941 times)

David Eichler

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Re: Do we really need bracketed exposures and HDR programs anymore?
« Reply #40 on: April 24, 2020, 12:47:53 am »

So, what happens if you pull up the shadows of the second (single) shot? Wouldn't it come close to the first shot? Just wondering. As I said before, when I played around with Christian Bloch's bracketed shots in Photomatix Pro I could make the best single shot look just as good as the HDR rendered bracketed shots.

It depends upon the range of exposures. I can't speak to the examples in the Bloch book, since I have not seen them. As a general rule, with a very contrasty scene, even if you can process a single exposure so that it looks approximately the same as an HDR image, if you examine the shadows at high magnification, you will typically see much less noise there, assuming you have shot and processed the HDR image properly. This might not matter much if the image will be viewed small; but the larger the image is viewed, the more likely any significant shadow noise will become apparent to the viewer.

In any case, as some have said above, there are still going to be scenes that are so contrasty that even the most advanced sensors will not be able to capture them with sufficient highlight and shadow detail in a single exposure, to make a satisfactory image.
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kamma1

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Re: Do we really need bracketed exposures and HDR programs anymore?
« Reply #41 on: April 24, 2020, 02:31:55 am »



If anybody is interested, I'll Dropbox the raw files. I'd like to see if anyone can come close to the HDR image using only a single exposure.



I'd be interested in playing with those files if you post a link.  I have a new version of Capture One to play with, so it might be an interesting exploration for me..


Guillermo Luijk

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Re: Do we really need bracketed exposures and HDR programs anymore?
« Reply #42 on: April 24, 2020, 06:21:48 am »

The first image is an HDR merge by SNS-HDR. The second image is my best attempt at processing only the middle exposure in ACR and Photoshop. The images are from a Canon EOS R. Different sources rate the dynamic range of that camera between 13 and 14.1. It seems to me that there is a big difference between theory and practice.

Not really, the difference is between SNS-HDR processing and your processing. As long as you capture the scene's entire dynamic range, the only difference you will see in the result using a different number of shots is because of software processing, not because of the number of camera shots itself.

Some software (SNS-HDR, Photomatix,...) will produce a different result depending on how many images you provide them with different exposure, but not on the number of captures done. In your cat's scene you could build 5 replicas at 1EV intervals of the single shot containing all the DR, and the result would have been the same if you manage to fool SNS-HDR to process them (you would probably find your cat a bit noisier, but this was expected and has nothing to do with the strong differences in local contrast, tones and specially shadow lifting you are showing here).

I made the following experiment: 7 shots at 1EV intervals: 1-2-3-4-5-6-7, and built two HDR linear merges: one using all seven shots, and one using only 1-3-5-7 shots. From the two resulting merges I generated 4 results with Photomatix (please ignore the technical quality or scene interest) using a different number of replicas of the merge:
  • A: 7 shots merge 1-2-3-4-5-6-7, 7 image replicas at 1EV intervals
  • B: 4 shots merge 1-3-5-7, 7 image replicas at 1EV intervals
  • C: 4 shots merge 1-3-5-7, 4 image replicas at 2EV intervals
  • D: 7 shots merge 1-2-3-4-5-6-7, 4 image replicas at 2EV intervals

The result A = B, and they differ from C = D. In other words, those results in which Photomatix was provided the same number of images differently exposed (either 4 or 7), no matter if they were produced from a different number of original shots, are identical. And when a different number of images were provided, no mater if they came from the same number of RAW files, are different.

(tomas = camera shots, imágenes [copias] = images loaded in Photomatix with different exposure)


100% crop on dark area:


Conclusion: the key variable here is number of images (at different exposures) provided, not the number of shots (RAW files) done with your camera. The number of captures needed depends on the scene while the effect of the number of images provided to your tone mapping software depends on how your software tone mapping algorithm works. It's nothing to blame at sensor behaviour or number of shots.

I would add, because I know this is possible, that a good tone mapping software should provide the same result no matter of the number of images it is provided, as long as the whole scene's DR is captured. Unfortunately this is not the case for Photomatix, and probably SNS-HDR (I didn't try it).

Disadvantages of more shots:
- Loss of detail because of micro missalignments of shots in overlapping areas (don't consider software alignment will work perfect because missalignments will never happen at 1 pixel multiples)
- Prone to ghosting artifacts with moving subjects (water, trees, clouds passing by the Sun casting moving shadows,...)
- Waste of extra memory resources (card, HD)

Final practical suggestion: those who use automated tone mapping software are probably better served with just one or a couple of shots (3-4 EV apart), and feed their software with evenly spaced replicas of them, rather than using the camera as a machine gun. Finding out the optimum number and exposure spacing of images is a matter of trying.

Regards
« Last Edit: April 24, 2020, 11:34:02 am by Guillermo Luijk »
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Guillermo Luijk

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Re: Do we really need bracketed exposures and HDR programs anymore?
« Reply #44 on: April 24, 2020, 12:58:30 pm »

The closest to perfect ETTR was Cara42320-008v1.dng (Cara42320-007v1.dng has lower exposure so it's unnecesary because the former already preserved the highlights).
The RAW data in Cara42320-008v1.dng allows to very accurately calculate the scene's dynamic range:



As you can see your scene had RAW data spread over 11 stops of DR on each channel. Bearing in mind that for some reason you shot at ISO400 instead of ISO100, and your camera has a photographic DR at ISO400 around 10,8 stops, you were past the limit and probably the noise in the cat (which corresponds to the darkest area of the scene) would be unnaceptable in a large copy. In other words, if you wanted a clean cat your camera cannot properly handle this scene using a single shot, and at least two are recommended.

Your 8,3 stops estimation of DR using the spot meter was totally wrong. I have to say I am not surprised because spot metering over relatively small subjects leads to frequent errors. A genuine 8,3 stops scene would be no real challenge for your camera in a single shot, even at ISO400.


(if you are surprised of so much noise is because most RAW developers apply noise reduction and we are used to it. This is what the cat really looks like with 0 NR)

BTW I guess you did some cloning on the curtains in the HDR version to hide the visible wooden part of the window, since all of the RAW files show this wooden piece.

Regards
« Last Edit: April 24, 2020, 03:14:56 pm by Guillermo Luijk »
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Frans Waterlander

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Re: Do we really need bracketed exposures and HDR programs anymore?
« Reply #45 on: April 24, 2020, 02:48:51 pm »

So, how do I open those dng's in Photoshop Elements?
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digitaldog

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Re: Do we really need bracketed exposures and HDR programs anymore?
« Reply #46 on: April 24, 2020, 02:56:36 pm »

So, how do I open those dng's in Photoshop Elements?
With ACR of course.
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Frans Waterlander

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Re: Do we really need bracketed exposures and HDR programs anymore?
« Reply #47 on: April 24, 2020, 03:26:15 pm »

With ACR of course.
I know that. But what would be the steps to do that?
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digitaldog

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Re: Do we really need bracketed exposures and HDR programs anymore?
« Reply #48 on: April 24, 2020, 03:27:08 pm »

I know that. But what would be the steps to do that?
File.... Open....
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Redcrown

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Re: Do we really need bracketed exposures and HDR programs anymore?
« Reply #49 on: April 24, 2020, 03:53:23 pm »

Guillermo,

Thanks for the analysis. Where is that histogram from? Does not match anything I get from Raw Digger.

Nice to know the spot meter can be so wrong.

Yes, my HDR version was a keeper so I did some cloning to clean up, including the gap in the curtains.
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Guillermo Luijk

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Re: Do we really need bracketed exposures and HDR programs anymore?
« Reply #50 on: April 24, 2020, 04:01:52 pm »

Guillermo,

Thanks for the analysis. Where is that histogram from? Does not match anything I get from Raw Digger.

Nice to know the spot meter can be so wrong.

Yes, my HDR version was a keeper so I did some cloning to clean up, including the gap in the curtains.

I calculated it on my own from your RAW data (extracted using DCRAW and plotted with Histogrammar). The pure RAW histogram, which should be similar to what you get from RawDigger (in log scale), looks like this:




Being totally correct, it's difficult to interpret because those spikes in the shadows due to the quantization make it difficult to find out how much information there is on every stop.

But there is a statistical trick to have a much more obvious (softer) histogram: averaging RAW data fills all levels in the histogram with the amount of light they received (or a very precise approximation of it thanks to statistics). The histogram I showed previously was a 8x8 pixels averaging. This allows to calculate scene's DR with cameras having less DR that the contrast of the scene. Actually the limit is only the RAW bitdepth.

Regards
« Last Edit: April 24, 2020, 05:24:50 pm by Guillermo Luijk »
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Frans Waterlander

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Re: Do we really need bracketed exposures and HDR programs anymore?
« Reply #51 on: April 24, 2020, 04:03:26 pm »

File.... Open....
In case you didn't realize, I've never tried to open a file from someone else's dropbox, so I could use some hints other then File... Open...
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digitaldog

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Re: Do we really need bracketed exposures and HDR programs anymore?
« Reply #52 on: April 24, 2020, 04:15:00 pm »

In case you didn't realize, I've never tried to open a file from someone else's dropbox, so I could use some hints other then File... Open...
How would anyone know your lack of experience in opening a DNG into ACR until you tell us your lack of experience?
Do you not know how to download the DNG in the first place or you figured that out, have the DNG, but don't know how to open it in ACR/Elements???
Do examine your specific question (copy and paste):
Quote
So, how do I open those dng's in Photoshop Elements?
WHY do you make it so difficult to help you?   ;)
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mcbroomf

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Re: Do we really need bracketed exposures and HDR programs anymore?
« Reply #53 on: April 24, 2020, 04:17:00 pm »

You really don't need much more than that Frans.  Opening a DNG will open ACR which you mentioned you know (and are familiar with?).

If you want to do an HDR with some/all images you can select them together and choose open, they will open together in ACR and you can choose to blend them with HDR after selecting them all, or concentrate on one of them.
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Frans Waterlander

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Re: Do we really need bracketed exposures and HDR programs anymore?
« Reply #54 on: April 24, 2020, 05:11:38 pm »

You really don't need much more than that Frans.  Opening a DNG will open ACR which you mentioned you know (and are familiar with?).

If you want to do an HDR with some/all images you can select them together and choose open, they will open together in ACR and you can choose to blend them with HDR after selecting them all, or concentrate on one of them.

I just don't know how to get those dng files out of the dropbox and onto my computer as RAW files and open them in PSE. I can click on them and then save them, but then they are jpegs, not RAWs.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2020, 05:15:44 pm by Frans Waterlander »
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digitaldog

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Re: Do we really need bracketed exposures and HDR programs anymore?
« Reply #55 on: April 24, 2020, 05:16:28 pm »

I just don't know how to get those dng files out of the dropbox and onto my computer so I can open them in PSE.
I don't have to guess that's right.
”Dog helps those who help themselves” 😌
https://help.dropbox.com/
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fdisilvestro

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Re: Do we really need bracketed exposures and HDR programs anymore?
« Reply #56 on: April 24, 2020, 05:24:23 pm »

I just don't know how to get those dng files out of the dropbox and onto my computer as RAW files and open them in PSE. I can click on them and then save them, but then they are jpegs, not RAWs.

Use the download button at the upper right of the dropbox page, as shown in the attached image

fdisilvestro

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Re: Do we really need bracketed exposures and HDR programs anymore?
« Reply #57 on: April 24, 2020, 05:32:47 pm »

I calculated it on my own from your RAW data (extracted using DCRAW and plotted with Histogrammar). The pure RAW histogram, which should be similar to what you get from RawDigger (in log scale), looks like this:




Being totally correct, it's difficult to interpret because those spikes in the shadows due to the quantization make it difficult to find out how much information there is on every stop.

But there is a statistical trick to have a much more obvious (softer) histogram: averaging RAW data fills all levels in the histogram with the amount of light they received (or a very precise approximation of it thanks to statistics). The histogram I showed previously was a 8x8 pixels averaging. This allows to calculate scene's DR with cameras having less DR that the contrast of the scene. Actually the limit is only the RAW bitdepth.

Regards

¡Brillante!

David Eichler

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Re: Do we really need bracketed exposures and HDR programs anymore?
« Reply #58 on: April 24, 2020, 05:40:59 pm »

A quickish 3 exposure hdr of the cat photo done with Lightroom and some local adjustments. With the camera used here, there is definitely a need for HDR to hold detail in the shadows and highlights and to keep shadow noise down. But the HDR process isn't the end of the story. You usually still have to massage the image to get what you want out of it. There is just the slightest bit of black clipping in the cat.
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Alan Klein

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Re: Do we really need bracketed exposures and HDR programs anymore?
« Reply #59 on: April 24, 2020, 08:21:44 pm »

I bracket medium format film shots.  I do that in case I screw up the measured exposure setting.  My bracketing is  0, +1 and -1. Which programs could I try HDR that works with film?  Any special things I should know?  Can I use TIFF files?    Thanks.
PS.   I have Lightroom 6.0 purchased and PS Elements.  Note that my LR has a plug-in called HDR Efex Pro 2.  But I've never used it.
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