PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political

[Alan Klein]

Discussions about taxes are usually utterly silly. We live in societies in which we have shared costs, so we share in paying for them. End of story. There are of course ongoing discussions about which things we want to pay for collectively and which we do not. The argument that the government is confiscating your money by force is spectacularly laughable, the government is us. This was all settled in a grade 9 civics class in 1926.

Well, the higher income tax bracket you're in, the more belief you have that the government is confiscating it.  If on the other hand the government is giving you money because you don't earn too much rather than taking any, then you think it's fair and equitable.  It depends whose ox is being gored. 

[faberryman]

Well, the higher income tax bracket you're in, the more belief you have that the government is confiscating it.  If on the other hand the government is giving you money because you don't earn too much rather than taking any, then you think it's fair and equitable.  It depends whose ox is being gored.

Not really.

[Alan Klein]

Gee.  I wonder which one of us is telling the truth. 

[Craig Lamson]

I'd say it's more the leadership. Good leadership throughout history has led young men into battle sacrificing their lives...surely good leadership could help people unite combatting this virus.

I don’t believe so, but you are welcome to your opinion.

[faberryman]

Gee.  I wonder which one of us is telling the truth. 

I may have mentioned to you before, I think that people are different, and they experience things differently, and so they feel and think differently about the world around them, including with respect to the payment of taxes, so I don't find these broad brush generalizations very helpful.

[Alan Klein]

I may have mentioned to you before, I think that people are different, and they experience things differently, and so they feel and think differently about the world around them, including with respect to the payment of taxes, so I don't find these broad brush generalizations very helpful.

I think that generally most people don't like paying more taxes even if they think taxes are good and necessary.  They just would prefer someone else pay them instead.  I haven't personally done a poll.  It's just my belief.  I could be wrong. You're entitled to your belief as well.  That's fine.

[John Camp]

I may have mentioned to you before, I think that people are different, and they experience things differently, and so they feel and think differently about the world around them, including with respect to the payment of taxes, so I don't find these broad brush generalizations very helpful.

I agree with both of you. Taxes are absolutely necessary, but sometimes, the taxes can become genuinely onerous. Right now, the top marginal state tax rate in California is 13%. The top marginal federal tax rate is 40%, if you include the 2.9% Medicare tax which applies to all money earned. Since the Trump tax reforms, only a very small amount of state tax can be deducted from the federal tax -- for high earners, virtually nothing. When it comes to billionaires, nobody cares, including me, because most billionaires are feeding off capital gains, and only pay 22%. If the Biden tax proposals should become law, most estimates of the effect would put California at around 62%. I believe that's too much -- again, not for billionaires, but for people who make a lot of money through paychecks, which are basically unprotected. The people I'm thinking of are well-compensated professionals -- think surgeons. In California, Texas and Florida, a surgeon probably makes well over a half-million dollars, and the really good ones probably make a million. That's not a huge amount given the California cost of living, and if the million gets clipped down to $380,000 because of taxes, I wouldn't be at all surprised to see a lot of California physicians moving to Texas and Florida. It's already happening in some specific cases that I know of, in my profession. To take my example, with the suggested Biden tax changes, a doc making a million would go from about $380,000 to ~$650,000, a raise of more than a quarter million dollars a year, for doing nothing but moving.

Like Faberryman, I believe people have to pay taxes, because that's where civilization comes from. But, there's a breaking point, and I think some states -- New York, New Jersey, California, Connecticut -- have reached it.

[JoeKitchen]

Discussions about taxes are usually utterly silly. We live in societies in which we have shared costs, so we share in paying for them. End of story. There are of course ongoing discussions about which things we want to pay for collectively and which we do not. The argument that the government is confiscating your money by force is spectacularly laughable, the government is us. This was all settled in a grade 9 civics class in 1926.

The end result of breaking any law will be a guy with aa gun coming to your home.  If you dont pay taxes, long enough, there will be aa guy(s) with a gun at your home forcing you to pay. 

And yes, the government is confiscating our money.

I have little issue with local and state taxes, since I can look at tangible things they provide.  But Federal taxes I despise and cant really see anything of value they supply.  We had no federal income tax prior to 1920, except during the Civil War, and we got along just fine.  I'd say bring it back. 

Last, if given the option of investing my social security taxes myself for retirement, I'd take that deal any day of the week. 

[chez]

I don’t believe so, but you are welcome to your opinion.

Really? You think the leadership in the US had not a thing to do with the current mess...nothing?

[Craig Lamson]

Really? You think the leadership in the US had not a thing to do with the current mess...nothing?

Nope, not really.  People will do what people do.  Do you think for example the raving young leftists would have responded favorably to anything Trump might have said?

I don’t.  But that’s just my informed opinion and I have no links to support it.

[Alan Klein]

I agree with both of you. Taxes are absolutely necessary, but sometimes, the taxes can become genuinely onerous. Right now, the top marginal state tax rate in California is 13%. The top marginal federal tax rate is 40%, if you include the 2.9% Medicare tax which applies to all money earned. Since the Trump tax reforms, only a very small amount of state tax can be deducted from the federal tax -- for high earners, virtually nothing. When it comes to billionaires, nobody cares, including me, because most billionaires are feeding off capital gains, and only pay 22%. If the Biden tax proposals should become law, most estimates of the effect would put California at around 62%. I believe that's too much -- again, not for billionaires, but for people who make a lot of money through paychecks, which are basically unprotected. The people I'm thinking of are well-compensated professionals -- think surgeons. In California, Texas and Florida, a surgeon probably makes well over a half-million dollars, and the really good ones probably make a million. That's not a huge amount given the California cost of living, and if the million gets clipped down to $380,000 because of taxes, I wouldn't be at all surprised to see a lot of California physicians moving to Texas and Florida. It's already happening in some specific cases that I know of, in my profession. To take my example, with the suggested Biden tax changes, a doc making a million would go from about $380,000 to ~$650,000, a raise of more than a quarter million dollars a year, for doing nothing but moving.

Like Faberryman, I believe people have to pay taxes, because that's where civilization comes from. But, there's a breaking point, and I think some states -- New York, New Jersey, California, Connecticut -- have reached it.

Finally we agree on something.  I moved to New Jersey seven years ago and retired. Property taxes are crazy here around 2.8% of the assessed value of the home per year and going up.  State income taxes are not as bad as California, but pretty high maybe around 7%. The state is broke.   I lived in NY all my life and get a small government pension from them.  NY is broke too. Frankly, Biden would be good for me.  He wants to bail out the states to protect pensions.  That would help secure mine and other rich states paid for by more poor people and poorer states.  Of course Democrats don't admit or say that.  They say they want to give it to us because Covid hurt state financing.  Well that's true to a certain amount.  But states being broke because of pensions predated the virus.   The Republicans are no better.  But they only want to print around another trillion, the democrats maybe three. The dollar won't be worth anything. When they're done there won't be enough cheese left for a mouse to get a tooth in.

[chez]

Nope, not really.  People will do what people do.  Do you think for example the raving young leftists would have responded favorably to anything Trump might have said?

I don’t.  But that’s just my informed opinion and I have no links to support it.

Well other "free countries" that had sound consistent leadership have done better. It's not about the right or the left...it's about consistent leadership from all levels of government backed up by the medical experts.

[Craig Lamson]

Well other "free countries" that had sound consistent leadership have done better. It's not about the right or the left...it's about consistent leadership from all levels of government backed up by the medical experts.

Was it actually the leardeship or any of the other factors I mentioned in a post above?   I await your proof.

[JoeKitchen]

Well other "free countries" that had sound consistent leadership have done better. It's not about the right or the left...it's about consistent leadership from all levels of government backed up by the medical experts.

Scott Adams, known mostly for being the creator of Dilbert, but has many other credentials when it come to analysis, gave a great interview with Dave Rubin pretty much stating no one has any clue what they are talking about in regards to C-19. 

For instance, he brought up the idea fact that South Korea did so well and it must have been due to their leadership, but wasn't.  If you did some digging you would find that one company in SK that made tests thought that maybe this thing would go bad and decided to ramp up manufacturing of tests.  It paid off, and that, pure happenstance, is what made SK look like they handled this so well, nothing more. 

I agree with Craig, good leadership in the pandemic and a $1.50 will get you a cup coffee.  Take away that good leadership, well, you'll still be able to get that cup of coffee. 

[faberryman]

For instance, he brought up the idea fact that South Korea did so well and it must have been due to their leadership, but wasn't.  If you did some digging you would find that one company in SK that made test thought that maybe this thing would go bad and decided to ramp up manufacturing of tests.  It paid off, and that, pure happenstance, is what made SK look like they handled this so well, nothing more.

I was checking out the old pocket dictionary I keep on the shelf from junior high, and I think the word you were looking for is not "happenstance" but "foresight". At least I think so. I'd wager that is the word you would use if it were Trump who "thought that maybe this thing would go bad and decided to ramp up manufacturing of tests." I would.

[JoeKitchen]

I was checking out the old pocket dictionary I keep on the shelf from junior high, and I think the word you were looking for is not "happenstance" but "foresight". At least I think so. I'd wager that is the word you would use if it were Trump who "thought that maybe this thing would go bad and decided to ramp up manufacturing of tests." I would.

Nope, I meant happenstance, but I was talking about SK state leadership. 

Insofar as that private SK company, which had nothing to do with SK state leadership, then yes, foresight. 

[Alan Klein]

Well other "free countries" that had sound consistent leadership have done better. It's not about the right or the left...it's about consistent leadership from all levels of government backed up by the medical experts.

I agree that Trump has flip flopped around.  He's trying to balance the needs of the economy with medical issues.  After all, there are economic experts as well a medical experts who are telling us the economy might not recover.  People will starve if we don't get back to work.  Responsible leaders have to look at both medical and economic issues.  It's not an either/or situation. 

Unfortunately, medical and economic decisions are at odds with each other.  The 50 governors are having the same problem.  They too are trying to balance their decisions.  One day they open up business.  The next day they shut them down again as the case load increases. It's happening in Europe and elsewhere too.  This may turn out to be a long battle that we have to live with.  Let's hope the vaccines are developed quickly and work.

[Alan Klein]

I was checking out the old pocket dictionary I keep on the shelf from junior high, and I think the word you were looking for is not "happenstance" but "foresight". At least I think so. I'd wager that is the word you would use if it were Trump who "thought that maybe this thing would go bad and decided to ramp up manufacturing of tests." I would.

Trump did put manufacturing into high gear much like he handled the ice skating rink in Central Parks decades earlier.  PPE, breathers, masks, hospital beds, and vaccine research  and delivery were pushed by him and put into high gear.  He had military hospitals builts, hospital ships delivered, etc.  He's a very effective manager.  You can fault him for a lot of things, but being able to make a decision, even one fraught with opposition and potential danger, and execute when there's a problem is not one of them.  On the world stage, he destroyed ISIS, tariffed China, made deals with North Korea, Canada, Mexico, NATO, the Kurds, Iraq, AFghanistan, etc.  We may not like some of his decisions, but you can't argue he can't get things done.

[LesPalenik]

Trump did put manufacturing into high gear much like he handled the ice skating rink in Central Parks decades earlier.  PPE, breathers, masks, hospital beds, and vaccine research  and delivery were pushed by him and put into high gear.  He had military hospitals builts, hospital ships delivered, etc.  He's a very effective manager.  You can fault him for a lot of things, but being able to make a decision, even one fraught with opposition and potential danger, and execute when there's a problem is not one of them.  On the world stage, he destroyed ISIS, tariffed China, made deals with North Korea, Canada, Mexico, NATO, the Kurds, Iraq, AFghanistan, etc.  We may not like some of his decisions, but you can't argue he can't get things done.

Yes, he is very quick decision maker. Last year he imposed twice tariffs on Canadian aluminum and in both cases, he was also very quick in reversing his decisions.
He is even more effective in reversing many laws made by the prior administration. Especially the restrictions on clean air, water, wildlife and toxic chemicals.

[Alan Klein]

Yes, he is very quick decision maker. Last year he imposed twice tariffs on Canadian aluminum and in both cases, he was also very quick in reversing his decisions.
He is even more effective in reversing many laws made by the prior administration. Especially the restrictions on clean air, water, wildlife and toxic chemicals.

Yes.  He does often reverse himself.  He acts from the gut. That's his style.  If he was a photographer, he would love digital.  He'd be chimping all the time, checking and then taking another shot. 

Reversing prior president's decisions is a different matter. He's keeping his policy decisions, not reversing himself.  Elections have consequences.