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Author Topic: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political  (Read 209861 times)

LesPalenik

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #7940 on: October 26, 2020, 12:26:09 pm »

Yes.  He does often reverse himself.  He acts from the gut. That's his style. If he was a photographer, he would love digital.  He'd be chimping all the time, checking and then taking another shot. 

Reversing prior president's decisions is a different matter. He's keeping his policy decisions, not reversing himself.  Elections have consequences.

Digital, but not mirrorless. He likes to look into the mirror.
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faberryman

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #7941 on: October 26, 2020, 12:56:50 pm »

Trump did put manufacturing into high gear much like he handled the ice skating rink in Central Parks decades earlier.

I really don't know the facts, but I'll give him the benefit of the doubt and say he did a good job on fixing up an ice skating rink. The thing is, I used to give my car tune-ups. Now cars are so complex, I take it to a guy who actually knows what he is doing. Craig sounds like he is a master mechanic, so I would probably take it to Craig if he lived closer.  He might turn me down because sometimes it is fun to do projects for yourself, but a chore if you have do it for someone else even if you are getting paid.

I played ice hockey when I was young and have always enjoyed watching the games.  I was watching the NHL Network one night and they were showing this documentary on the evolution of the ice surface. Used to be you just scraped the snow off the pond with a snow shovel and you were good to go. Now, it is really complicated and you have to know a lot of stuff. I really admire those guys. They really know what they are doing. Probably wouldn't vote for any of them for president, but if I had a ice surface problem I probably would give them a call. I would have preferred it if Trump had stayed in NYC fixing ice skating rinks.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2020, 09:00:41 pm by faberryman »
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Peter McLennan

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #7942 on: October 26, 2020, 03:30:57 pm »

... He's a very effective manager... 

And yet he "managed" to go bankrupt several times. (otherwise known as "stiffing your creditors" several times)

Call it "effective" if it makes you feel good.  IMHO, it's reprehensible.


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Craig Lamson

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #7943 on: October 26, 2020, 04:31:18 pm »

And yet he "managed" to go bankrupt several times. (otherwise known as "stiffing your creditors" several times)

Call it "effective" if it makes you feel good.  IMHO, it's reprehensible.

Bankruptcy is a perfectly legal function in the US, overseen by the Federal Court System.

As a business if you extend credit to another business or individual you take on the risk that the client may default leaving you little or no chance of recouping your money, depending on how you structured the debt.

Its not unusual or reprehensiible.  It's simply business and if you didn't know the rules and you got burnt, sahme on you.  If you did know the rules and got burnt, welcome to reality.

It happens to large business and small businesses and it can hurt businesses who will not be receiving payment a lot.  I know.  Back in 2007-2008 I had two of my client go bankrupt while still owing me sizeable amounts of money.  Combined with the crash of 08 causing my RV clients to simply stop buying photography it ultimatley caused me to close that business.  I understood my position and while it didn't make me happy I simply had to live with it.  I extended the credit, I accepted the risk.  Like I said, welcome to reality.  I didn't hold it against the principals of the two bankrupt businesses.  They did not want to do it but they had no choice.  In fact I later started doing business with both of them and extended credit again.  They are my still my friends. 

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LesPalenik

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #7944 on: October 26, 2020, 04:41:58 pm »

Bankruptcy is a perfectly legal function in the US, overseen by the Federal Court System.

As a business if you extend credit to another business or individual you take on the risk that the client may default leaving you little or no chance of recouping your money, depending on how you structured the debt.

Its not unusual or reprehensiible.  It's simply business and if you didn't know the rules and you got burnt, sahme on you.  If you did know the rules and got burnt, welcome to reality.

It happens to large business and small businesses and it can hurt businesses who will not be receiving payment a lot.  I know.  Back in 2007-2008 I had two of my client go bankrupt while still owing me sizeable amounts of money.  Combined with the crash of 08 causing my RV clients to simply stop buying photography it ultimatley caused me to close that business.  I understood my position and while it didn't make me happy I simply had to live with it.  I extended the credit, I accepted the risk.  Like I said, welcome to reality.  I didn't hold it against the principals of the two bankrupt businesses.  They did not want to do it but they had no choice.  In fact I later started doing business with both of them and extended credit again.  They are my still my friends.

I have seen and experienced it, too.
In many cases, the owners do have a choice between paying off their creditors or rewarding themselves with a fat salary.
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Craig Lamson

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #7945 on: October 26, 2020, 05:03:48 pm »

I have seen and experienced it, too.
In many cases, the owners do have a choice between paying off their creditors or rewarding themselves with a fat salary.

In the US the bankruptcy plan must be approved by the Federal Court System.  If you don't cheat you are not going to get a big payday.  It might be possible to restructure and even keep your business but its not without some downsides.  Today there are companies skirting the retention bonus law and most are doing it before a bankruptcy filing.  I agree and understand why a company doing a restructing would want to try and retain certain employees. It might not make a lot of sense if it was the actions of these employees that caused to company to fail but thats another discussion.  I think the law that covered this was passed somewhere in the mid 2000's.  And I would also  agree that granting those bonuses outside of this law is unethical and maybe criminal.  If it is criminal it should be punished and if its not Congress can fix that if they wish. 

But again when you extend credit you have to take the risk.  If your credit is unsecured you will likely lose it all.  Even if it is secured you may only recap a small portion. 
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Alan Klein

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #7946 on: October 26, 2020, 05:06:32 pm »

And yet he "managed" to go bankrupt several times. (otherwise known as "stiffing your creditors" several times)

Call it "effective" if it makes you feel good.  IMHO, it's reprehensible.



A lot of people are going bankrupt today due to Covid.  Are they reprehensible? There are a lot of reasons for going out of business.  People try to be successful in business.  It's not easy.  How many photographers lost their businesses?  Look at Disney, AMC theaters, camera companies, retail department stores, etc.  ARe their bankruptcies or potential ones reprehensible?  I don't think so.  It hurts when you lose a business you put your heart and hard work into. 

kers

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #7947 on: October 26, 2020, 06:49:12 pm »

A lot of people are going bankrupt today due to Covid.  Are they reprehensible? There are a lot of reasons for going out of business.  People try to be successful in business.  It's not easy.  How many photographers lost their businesses?  Look at Disney, AMC theaters, camera companies, retail department stores, etc.  ARe their bankruptcies or potential ones reprehensible?  I don't think so.  It hurts when you lose a business you put your heart and hard work into.
So what is your solution... we know the problem.
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BobShaw

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #7948 on: October 26, 2020, 07:04:29 pm »

Bankruptcy is a perfectly legal function in the US, overseen by the Federal Court System.
My father went bankrupt in The Great Depression in the early 30's. In the mid 50's he still could not get a £2000 loan even with two houses of far greater value as security.
Now it some sort of badge of honour that can be done again and again. Times have changed.

Meanwhile the US will this month pass another milestone.
700 Covid deaths per million. Of what I would call advanced capability countries, only exceed by Spain and Belgium.
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faberryman

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #7949 on: October 26, 2020, 07:23:18 pm »

A lot of people are going bankrupt today due to Covid.  Are they reprehensible? There are a lot of reasons for going out of business.  People try to be successful in business.  It's not easy.  How many photographers lost their businesses?  Look at Disney, AMC theaters, camera companies, retail department stores, etc.  ARe their bankruptcies or potential ones reprehensible?  I don't think so.  It hurts when you lose a business you put your heart and hard work into.

Yeah poor old Trump put his heart and hard work in those casinos and through no fault of his own went bankrupt. And with little Tiny Tim at home sitting by the hearth, but no wood for a fire. Give me a break. He ran those businesses into the ground because of gross mismanagement, and now no one in this country will lend to him.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2020, 09:01:24 pm by faberryman »
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Peter McLennan

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #7950 on: October 26, 2020, 08:40:13 pm »

Perhaps those who defend bankruptcy as "legal but normal" business practices would like to review my previous post on this topic.

Especially those words in bold type:  several times.  At least five bankruptcies, I believe.

I repeat: "reprehensible".

Sorta like cheating in golf.
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Craig Lamson

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #7951 on: October 26, 2020, 08:58:02 pm »

Perhaps those who defend bankruptcy as "legal but normal" business practices would like to review my previous post on this topic.

Especially those words in bold type:  several times.  At least five bankruptcies, I believe.

I repeat: "reprehensible".

Sorta like cheating in golf.

Oh I’m sure most of us have reviewed your post .  We know your opinion.  It simply does not match the laws of the USA.  Too bad.  Your opinion has no effect on the laws of the USA.

Thank God.

You need to understand that Donald Trump the person did not go bankrupt.  Some of his businesses did.  And finally people and companies made an informed choice to extend credit to his businesses, accepting the risk should the business fail.  Reality.  What a concept.



« Last Edit: October 26, 2020, 09:48:40 pm by Craig Lamson »
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Robert Roaldi

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #7952 on: October 26, 2020, 09:42:36 pm »

NPR's Planet Money podcast No. 648 is about the benefits of bankruptcy to the economy, https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2017/10/04/555646290/episode-648-the-benefits-of-bankruptcy. It's an interesting report, I really knew nothing about how bankruptcy is actually managed or even what it means for that matter. I am sure there are ways to game the system, there usually are, but on balance it seems that having the option is beneficial to the wider economy, at least according to them.

Having a casino go bankrupt kind of leaves you wide open for ridicule though, doesn't it. I mean, the business model of a casino is that people come in, hand you their money, and you give them next to nothing in return most of the time. The back of the house, food, hotel rooms, parking, you don't need to run them any differently than any other hotel or restaurant, so if you can do that, the front of the house, the gambling, should be gravy. You probably don't even have to hire mathematicians, I'm sure the makers of the equipment handle all that. Historically, organized crime was involved in gambling a lot, so you know it's got to be easy money. Crooks don't like to work hard to earn cash, goes against the entire criminal ethic. But I suppose even a casino can be hit by a drop in tourism or bad location or who knows what else. Still though, when it starts happening a bit too often to you, it gets to be kind of embarrassing. But then when that happens you can always start up a university.

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Alan Klein

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #7953 on: October 26, 2020, 11:04:43 pm »

So what is your solution... we know the problem.
What problem? I don't see a problem with bankruptcy.  By the way, there are different kinds.  Two common ones are Chapter 7 where you just shut down and sell the assets of the business and Chapter 11 where the courts allow you to reorganize to help save the business and jobs if possible.

Peter McLennan

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #7954 on: October 26, 2020, 11:15:04 pm »

Reality.  What a concept.

Fair business practices.  What a concept.
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Alan Klein

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #7955 on: October 26, 2020, 11:16:13 pm »

NPR's Planet Money podcast No. 648 is about the benefits of bankruptcy to the economy, https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2017/10/04/555646290/episode-648-the-benefits-of-bankruptcy. It's an interesting report, I really knew nothing about how bankruptcy is actually managed or even what it means for that matter. I am sure there are ways to game the system, there usually are, but on balance it seems that having the option is beneficial to the wider economy, at least according to them.

Having a casino go bankrupt kind of leaves you wide open for ridicule though, doesn't it. I mean, the business model of a casino is that people come in, hand you their money, and you give them next to nothing in return most of the time. The back of the house, food, hotel rooms, parking, you don't need to run them any differently than any other hotel or restaurant, so if you can do that, the front of the house, the gambling, should be gravy. You probably don't even have to hire mathematicians, I'm sure the makers of the equipment handle all that. Historically, organized crime was involved in gambling a lot, so you know it's got to be easy money. Crooks don't like to work hard to earn cash, goes against the entire criminal ethic. But I suppose even a casino can be hit by a drop in tourism or bad location or who knows what else. Still though, when it starts happening a bit too often to you, it gets to be kind of embarrassing. But then when that happens you can always start up a university.


I don;t know all the ins and out of Trump's bankruptcies.  But his casinos, and others as well,  in ATlantic City, ran into a lot of problems as Indian lands in nearby states opened their casinos as competitors.  People stopped going to Atlantic CIty since it was closer to gamble where people lived.  Also, Atlantic City went downhill, xrime went up, and lots of people, stopped going.  A number of casinos went out of business. 

Its nothing to what's happening in Las Vegas.  Of course the reason now is Covid.  Bankruptcies in Vegas are going to make the ones in Atlantic City a picnic. I was there last December with my wife for the first time in my life.  Very glitzy but I wasn't impressed.  The fountain at the Bellagio where we stayed was great to watch from our room.  But now its shut off.  Vegas is dying.  Without gambling, the State of Nevada is just a desert.

Peter McLennan

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #7956 on: October 26, 2020, 11:18:05 pm »

A lot of people are going bankrupt today due to Covid.  Are they reprehensible?

I guess I should have put "SEVERAL TIMES" in upper case and bold.  Sorry.  My fault entirely.
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Alan Klein

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #7957 on: October 26, 2020, 11:30:18 pm »

Speaking of bankruptcies in gambling, NYC OTB (Off-Track Betting) went bankrupt.  Here was a situation where the government gave itself the unilateral right to accept bets outside of betting at the track, hence the name.  They controlled it. There were no other competitors.  Only the government could find a way where the house lost money with gambling.  After years of losing money, they finally shut down to save the taxpayers money. In the beginning, they promised the wins would go exclusively for public education. Of course, they said that as a selling point to get the public to go alone in the beginning.  But they spent more than they won.  The main problems was that it became a sweet way to get a high paying job if you knew (or could payoff) someone who was a politician in the state to get you the job.  So they ran it into the ground.  Typical government buffoons and crooks.

John Camp

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #7958 on: October 26, 2020, 11:52:19 pm »

Bankruptcies can help save some businesses that need to be saved -- in the current climate, for example, the airlines. A reorganization, rather than a liquidation, keeps a vital transportation system above water, although it will usually wipe out bond holders. But, you don't want to take any risk, don't buy bonds. But, bankruptcies can also be evil.

This is a true story that I covered as a reporter. I actually couldn't believe it when I was first told about it. A construction guy in Minnesota bid on a job to partially remodel a bank branch. It was an expensive job, and to make things easy, he borrowed money from the bank to buy the materials to do the remodel. The calculation was simple for both sides -- borrow the money, the bank pays the construction bill, the loan gets paid back, less the contractor's profit. As the job was finished, the bank essentially went bankrupt -- it was taken over by the government and the assets sold to another banking system. The new banking system refused to pay the bill. They took over only the assets, not the liabilities. But because they took over the assets, they demanded payment of the loan. When the contractor suggested he might take back the remodeled stuff, the bank called the cops, reporting the contractor's comments as a threat. So the bank got a free remodel and demanded to be repaid the loan. The deficits were simply written off by the government and nobody got anything. I never found out how this all came out...there was some court stuff, but all I heard later from a friend in the area was that the outcome was "sad."
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Alan Klein

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #7959 on: October 27, 2020, 12:43:59 am »

Bankruptcies can help save some businesses that need to be saved -- in the current climate, for example, the airlines. A reorganization, rather than a liquidation, keeps a vital transportation system above water, although it will usually wipe out bond holders. But, you don't want to take any risk, don't buy bonds. But, bankruptcies can also be evil.

This is a true story that I covered as a reporter. I actually couldn't believe it when I was first told about it. A construction guy in Minnesota bid on a job to partially remodel a bank branch. It was an expensive job, and to make things easy, he borrowed money from the bank to buy the materials to do the remodel. The calculation was simple for both sides -- borrow the money, the bank pays the construction bill, the loan gets paid back, less the contractor's profit. As the job was finished, the bank essentially went bankrupt -- it was taken over by the government and the assets sold to another banking system. The new banking system refused to pay the bill. They took over only the assets, not the liabilities. But because they took over the assets, they demanded payment of the loan. When the contractor suggested he might take back the remodeled stuff, the bank called the cops, reporting the contractor's comments as a threat. So the bank got a free remodel and demanded to be repaid the loan. The deficits were simply written off by the government and nobody got anything. I never found out how this all came out...there was some court stuff, but all I heard later from a friend in the area was that the outcome was "sad."
Which reminds me when me and my business were being sued in Federal court. AT one point, my lawyer asked the judge to excuse him from the case becasue I was slow in paying them their fees.  But I was paying them.  So in a hearing in the judge's chambers, the judge heard both sides.  Well, the judge was a lawyer before becoming a judge.  He took my lawyers side and let him out of the case so I had to start over with a new lawyer.  When I told the judge this wasn't fair, he looked me right in the yes and said, "Well, Mr. Klein, the American jurisprudence system isn't always fair." 

To add insult to injury, when I lost the case, I had to shut down my business and lay off my employees including me since I as president was also an employee of the corporation.  When I applied for unemployment insurance which I had been paying insurance premiums for me as well as my employees for twenty years, the government refused to allow it on the grounds that since I shut down my business because I lost the case, I, as president,  was responsible for my own unemployment and wasn't entitled to get paid for unemploment.  I appealed and lost.
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