PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political

[William Walker]

Yes.  He does often reverse himself.  He acts from the gut. That's his style.  If he was a photographer, he would love digital.  He'd be chimping all the time, checking and then taking another shot. 

Reversing prior president's decisions is a different matter. He's keeping his policy decisions, not reversing himself.  Elections have consequences.

Oh Alan! You are incorrigible!

You are going to have to explain why it is admirable for Trump to change his mind every five minutes and why it is not admirable for Biden to change his mind in forty-seven years.

Your quote in the other thread:"Biden on the other hand has changed every belief he's ever had and lied about his record just to get elected.  Who knows where he stands, on anything."

[Craig Lamson]

Fair business practices.  What a concept.

Bankruptcy is a fair business practice.  The Law, what a concept.

[Craig Lamson]

I guess I should have put "SEVERAL TIMES" in upper case and bold.  Sorry.  My fault entirely.

It makes no difference at all how many of Trumps 500 or so businesses may or may not go bankrupt.  Each one has the same protection under the bankruptcy laws, depending on how they are structured.  Some may be linked to others via cross-collateralization or other agreements.    Key word here  - LAWS.  Not that I expect the Law to matter to you.

[Alan Klein]

Oh Alan! You are incorrigible!

You are going to have to explain why it is admirable for Trump to change his mind every five minutes and why it is not admirable for Biden to change his mind in forty-seven years.

Your quote in the other thread:"Biden on the other hand has changed every belief he's ever had and lied about his record just to get elected.  Who knows where he stands, on anything."

Changing your mind regarding day to day management decisions goes on all the time.  Circumstances change so it effects our actions.  We all do that.   But that's different than changing your core beliefs as a person that Biden has done.  Of course, he's changed them to get elected.  But it raises the questions as to what he really believes and what he'll really do.   He's a typical politician who talks out of both sides of his mouth.   

[faberryman]

Changing your mind regarding day to day management decisions goes on all the time.  Circumstances change so it effects our actions.  We all do that.   But that's different than changing your core beliefs as a person that Biden has done.  Of course, he's changed them to get elected.  But it raises the questions as to what he really believes and what he'll really do.   He's a typical politician who talks out of both sides of his mouth.

Maybe you are right. Maybe Trump has been an evangelical all his life.

[faberryman]

Bankruptcy is a fair business practice.  The Law, what a concept.

Sure, but that doesn't mean that some people don't have to avail themselves of it because of gross mismanagement or worse. Not every bankrupt is a saint who finds himself in bankruptcy through no fault of his own.

[Alan Klein]

Sure, but that doesn't mean that some people don't have to avail themselves of it because of gross mismanagement or worse. Not every bankrupt is a saint who finds himself in bankruptcy through no fault of his own.

The purpose of Chapter 11 reorganization bankruptcy as I understand it, is to protect the creditors and employees as well as the shareholders and bondholders.  The owners and shareholders come afterwards.  The federal court judge is supposed to look to see how things can be set up so that creditors and bondholders get at least some the money owed to them and some jobs can be saved.  Protecting these stakeholders is the main purpose and the reason for the bankruptcy law. Whether it was caused by happenstance like Covid shutdowns or mismanagement, is beside the point.  The bankruptcy judge decides what happens to the company.  He could sell off the assets to another competitor as well to "save" the company forcing the original owners out.  Bankruptcy is not a free pass for the owners.  OF course, small companies don't even bother with Chapter 11.  They either just walk away or file Chapter 7 liquidation type bankruptcy and sell off everything, after paying themselves their final remuneration, of course. 

[Craig Lamson]

Sure, but that doesn't mean that some people don't have to avail themselves of it because of gross mismanagement or worse. Not every bankrupt is a saint who finds himself in bankruptcy through no fault of his own.

You are absolutely correct.  Still, the law exists to give both businesses and people a second  ( or third or more) chances to try again.  How you became insolvent is not a part of the equation. 

[Alan Klein]

You are absolutely correct.  Still, the law exists to give both businesses and people a second  ( or third or more) chances to try again.  How you became insolvent is not a part of the equation. 

That's true to a point.  If the owner and officers of the corporation committed fraud for example, the bankruptcy judge is not going to rule anything favorable for them.  He'll do what he can to protect the other stakeholders, but probably stick it to the owner and officers forcing them out. He could reverse final payments they may have taken, etc.  He has huge authority to do what he sees fit. 

[faberryman]

The purpose of Chapter 11 reorganization bankruptcy as I understand it, is to protect the creditors and employees as well as the shareholders and bondholders.  The owners and shareholders come afterwards.  The federal court judge is supposed to look to see how things can be set up so that creditors and bondholders get at least some the money owed to them and some jobs can be saved.  Protecting these stakeholders is the main purpose and the reason for the bankruptcy law. Whether it was caused by happenstance like Covid shutdowns or mismanagement, is beside the point.  The bankruptcy judge decides what happens to the company.  He could sell off the assets to another competitor as well to "save" the company forcing the original owners out.  Bankruptcy is not a free pass for the owners.  OF course, small companies don't even bother with Chapter 11.  They either just walk away or file Chapter 7 liquidation type bankruptcy and sell off everything, after paying themselves their final remuneration, of course. 

The judge doesn't do any of that stuff on his own initiative. I mean it sounds good on paper and all, but really what happens is the bankrupt submits a plan that hoses all of the creditors, and all of the creditors submit objections to the plan and submit alternate plans so they don't get hosed as bad, and back and forth. Then everybody realizes that they are wasting a lot of money on legal fees, so much so that the creditors think they might have to file bankruptcy too, so they come up with some compromises so everyone gets hosed in amount they can live with. Then the bankrupt submits an amended plan with all the compromises in it, and the judge asks if everyone can live with it, and they say okay, and the judge says so ordered. The judge doesn't read all that stuff. Have you seen how many cases are on the docket? And he sure is not doing all the business planning. What does he know about running a business? His wife probably balances the checkbook. The judge is like the referee in a wrestling match. The judge doesn't get all down and dirty. He just makes sure no one gets kicked in the balls and holds up the hand of the winner. Just like in a criminal case; the judge doesn't do the prosecutor's and the defense attorney's work. He's just up there to make sure everybody plays by the rules. You can makes it as complex as you want, but that is basically the deal. Oh, and the bankruptcy lawyers make a ton of money.

[faberryman]

You are absolutely correct.  Still, the law exists to give both businesses and people a second  ( or third or more) chances to try again.  How you became insolvent is not a part of the equation.

No objection there, counselor.

[Craig Lamson]

The judge doesn't do any of that stuff on his own initiative. I mean it sounds good on paper and all, but really what happens is the bankrupt submits a plan that hoses all of the creditors, and all of the creditors submit objections to the plan and submit alternate plans so they don't get hosed as bad, and back and forth. Then everybody realizes that they are wasting a lot of money on legal fees, so much so that the creditors think they might have to file bankruptcy too, so they come up with some compromises so everyone gets hosed in amount they can live with. Then the bankrupt submits an amended plan with all the compromises in it, and the judge asks if everyone can live with it, and they say okay, and the judge says so ordered. The judge doesn't read all that stuff. Have you seen how many cases are on the docket? And he sure is not doing all the business planning. What does he know about running a business? The judge is like the referee in a wrestling match. The judge never breaks a sweat. He just makes sure no one gets kicked in the balls and holds up the hand of the winner. Oh, and the bankruptcy lawyers make a ton of money.

America, What a country! 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OzZHrtAuCm8

[Alan Klein]

The judge doesn't do any of that stuff on his own initiative. I mean it sounds good on paper and all, but really what happens is the bankrupt submits a plan that hoses all of the creditors, and all of the creditors submit objections to the plan and submit alternate plans so they don't get hosed as bad, and back and forth. Then everybody realizes that they are wasting a lot of money on legal fees, so much so that the creditors think they might have to file bankruptcy too, so they come up with some compromises so everyone gets hosed in amount they can live with. Then the bankrupt submits an amended plan with all the compromises in it, and the judge asks if everyone can live with it, and they say okay, and the judge says so ordered. The judge doesn't read all that stuff. Have you seen how many cases are on the docket? And he sure is not doing all the business planning. What does he know about running a business? His wife probably balances the checkbook. The judge is like the referee in a wrestling match. The judge doesn't get all down and dirty. He just makes sure no one gets kicked in the balls and holds up the hand of the winner. Just like in a criminal case; the judge doesn't do the prosecutor's and the defense attorney's work  He's just up there to make sure everybody plays by the rules. You can makes it as complex as you want, but that is basically the deal. Oh, and the bankruptcy lawyers make a ton of money.

Well sure.  It's always better for the litigants to work things out among themselves if they can.  You never know what a court or jury might do.  That's what happened in some of the Trump bankruptcies.  The banks he owed money too actually loaned him more money to straighten out his business after he convinced them that they'll lose it all if they don't. Like Craig said, What a country!

[Jeremy Roussak]

In the last two pages there has been one, oblique, mention of Covid. The only viable conclusion being that there's nothing relevant to say on the topic, this thread is suspended for a while.

Jeremy

[Jeremy Roussak]

I have reopened the thread for one last outpouring of drivel before politics almost entirely disappears from the site. Enjoy.

Jeremy

[LesPalenik]

In contrast to Trump, Angela Merkel listens to the scientific advice when it comes to the pandemic.

German Chancellor Angela Merkel declined Monday to comment directly on the U.S. election, but said that she values the advice of scientists — hours after President Donald Trump took another shot at the top U.S. infectious disease expert.

Trump responded to supporters’ chants to “fire Fauci” during a rally in Florida early Monday by saying: “Don’t tell anybody but let me wait until a little bit after the election.”

https://apnews.com/article/election-2020-donald-trump-science-virus-outbreak-angela-merkel-84e7f60ce31af2d2cdfbda9d2e59df80

[JoeKitchen]

In contrast to Trump, Angela Merkel listens to the scientific advice when it comes to the pandemic.

https://apnews.com/article/election-2020-donald-trump-science-virus-outbreak-angela-merkel-84e7f60ce31af2d2cdfbda9d2e59df80

The problem is, people on the left only listen to the medical community, whom are all doing one point analysis.  Fauci only cares about C-19; he does not care about the side effects of the measures he is proposing and wether his measures would be worse for society then the virus. 

Trump is listening to all, the doctors and economists and etc., to make his decisions. 

And last I checked, Germany is getting walloped by the virus right now, so please explain to me what this consultation got Merkel. 

[faberryman]

The problem is, people on the left only listen to the medical community, whom are all doing one point analysis.  Fauci only cares about C-19; he does not care about the side effects of the measures he is proposing and wether his measures would be worse for society then the virus.

A sweeping generalization.  But less sweeping than Alan's usual fare, so I won't bother with it.

Trump is listening to all, the doctors and economists and etc., to make his decisions.

This is incomprehensibly delusional. Besides, you keep telling us that Trump can't do anything because of federalism. So far it has been if there is some good result, the credit lies with Trump; if there is some bad result, the blame lies with the governors and other state and local officials. It's an eye-roller to me.

And last I checked, Germany is getting walloped by the virus right now, so please explain to me what this consultation got Merkel.

Fewer deaths than otherwise? So far, Germany has better stats than we do. Maybe that will change when everything is said and done. I think we are still running a 1000 deaths a day, so we are well in the lead there. Can anyone catch us? I am not thinking so much about gross numbers as I am deaths per thousand of the population. I have not done a comparison of the state of the respective economies, but I don't remember reading anything about Germany's economy being in the toilet. Maybe you have done an in-depth analysis and can share it.

[LesPalenik]

Trump is listening to all, the doctors and economists and etc., to make his decisions. 

And last I checked, Germany is getting walloped by the virus right now, so please explain to me what this consultation got Merkel.

A more accurate statement would be that Trump isn't listening to anyone.
Germany as most other countries now, is experiencing indeed an increase when it comes to virus infections. That's why Merkel ordered a "light lockdown" for a month to fight it.  In terms of deaths per 1M, Germany's death count is 127 vs 713 in USA. 

[JoeKitchen]

A more accurate statement would be that Trump isn't listening to anyone.
Germany as most other countries now, is experiencing indeed an increase when it comes to virus infections. That's why Merkel ordered a "light lockdown" for a month to fight it.  In terms of deaths per 1M, Germany's death count is 127 vs 713 in USA.

What can I say, if only America's worse governor Cuomo actually listened to Trump instead of scoffing at him for a couple of weeks and not shutting, perhaps ...

Last I checked, take NY out of the equation and we sit at #47 in terms of death rates.