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Author Topic: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political  (Read 84551 times)

Alan Klein

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #6180 on: July 14, 2020, 10:23:49 am »

So Trump will tell the people what they want to hear.  But good leadership would involve being honest with the people and doing the best for the long term.  If that means dealing with Covid before the economy can return to a healthy state surely that is the right thing to do.
"I have nothing to offer but blood, toil, tears and sweat." Winston Churchill - May 1940.  He had his failings, but he did understand leadership.  Of course he could have said, ..."don't worry about the Nazis - they will not bother us - I'm sure they will go away soon and everything will be really good..."  I think it took the UK about 50 years to pay off that debt.  The alternative was worse.  Of course Covid is not a threat on that scale, but leadership is leadership - not bullshit.
That's the problem with a Democracy.  The officials are influenced by the voters. 

On the other hand, Trump more than any other president I can think of, has thumbed his nose at regular political operations. He's done and said things he believes in over and over that is political folly such as commuting Stone's sentence.  EVery other politician would have waited until after the election.  Trump is not the kind of fellow who goes along to get along. He often does what he believes despite the fallout.  He doesn't suffer fools easily.   That's leadership and courage even according to your definition.

PeterAit

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #6181 on: July 14, 2020, 10:44:09 am »

The American public isn't stupid.  If Biden refuses to do the debates, they'll understand he's afraid that people will really see he's incapable of handling the presidency.

Well, some are, all too many I fear.

And regarding the debates, here's a great idea from Thomas Friedman, who is very much a centrist. Biden should agree to debate under 2 conditions:

1) Trump fully release his tax returns, as Biden has done. Equal playing field, right?
2) They both agree to have a team of fact-finders present at the debate so that lies and distortions can be called out right away. Otherwise Trump will spend half the debate (or more) spouting lies and falsehoods and Biden will be forced to respond to the lies and therefore unable to fully present his platform.
3) An English teacher will be present to grade the participants on their intelligent and cogent use of the language.

OK, #3 is my invention, but given that what comes out of a person's mouth is a reflection of what's going on in their thoughts, it might not be a bad idea. Seeing as Trump talks at the level of a 5th grader, ... well, you can draw the conclusion.

If the big cheeto refuses these most reasonable conditions, then the lack of debates will be on his head.
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Peter

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Alan Klein

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #6182 on: July 14, 2020, 10:51:29 am »

Well, some are, all too many I fear.

And regarding the debates, here's a great idea from Thomas Friedman, who is very much a centrist. Biden should agree to debate under 2 conditions:

1) Trump fully release his tax returns, as Biden has done. Equal playing field, right?
2) They both agree to have a team of fact-finders present at the debate so that lies and distortions can be called out right away. Otherwise Trump will spend half the debate (or more) spouting lies and falsehoods and Biden will be forced to respond to the lies and therefore unable to fully present his platform.
3) An English teacher will be present to grade the participants on their intelligent and cogent use of the language.

OK, #3 is my invention, but given that what comes out of a person's mouth is a reflection of what's going on in their thoughts, it might not be a bad idea. Seeing as Trump talks at the level of a 5th grader, ... well, you can draw the conclusion.

If the big cheeto refuses these most reasonable conditions, then the lack of debates will be on his head.
Tom Friedman is not a centrist and is also a Trump hater.  Of course his ideas would be to protect Biden.  He's trying to provide a rationale to allow Biden to avoid the debates.  Friedman knows that if the voters see his senility, he'll lose the election.  Americans want someone tough to deal with Xi and all the other tyrants in the world.  So how the candidates handle themselves in the debates will be on everyone's minds.  Frankly, Trump isn't the smoothest debater either.  So I don't know if Biden has that much to worry about.

MattBurt

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #6183 on: July 14, 2020, 11:01:34 am »

Electing Hillary would have been dumber. :)

I wish we could have tested that theory.
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James Clark

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #6184 on: July 14, 2020, 11:11:56 am »

Tom Friedman is not a centrist and is also a Trump hater.  Of course his ideas would be to protect Biden.  He's trying to provide a rationale to allow Biden to avoid the debates.  Friedman knows that if the voters see his senility, he'll lose the election.  Americans want someone tough to deal with Xi and all the other tyrants in the world.  So how the candidates handle themselves in the debates will be on everyone's minds.  Frankly, Trump isn't the smoothest debater either.  So I don't know if Biden has that much to worry about.

It's tragic to think financial transparency and real-time fact checking are things that are "biased" toward Biden. 
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James Clark

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #6185 on: July 14, 2020, 11:13:47 am »

I wish we could have tested that theory.

Most of us do. 
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Alan Klein

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #6186 on: July 14, 2020, 11:37:37 am »

It's tragic to think financial transparency and real-time fact checking are things that are "biased" toward Biden. 
Friedman knows that his suggestions cannot be agreed to.  It's impractical.  Would you have have two groups of truth confirmers debating each other while the actual debate is going on?  That's just silly.  Friedman is recommending these things as an excuse to cancel the debates that would show Biden as senile. 

Alan Klein

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #6187 on: July 14, 2020, 11:39:24 am »

Most of us do. 
And your side spent 4 years trying to get Trump out of office instead of accepting the election. 

hogloff

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #6188 on: July 14, 2020, 11:43:24 am »

Electing Hillary would have been dumber. :)

I'm sorry with all the people in the US, you come up with dumb and dumber as the two presidential candidates. What does that say about the US?
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James Clark

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #6189 on: July 14, 2020, 11:50:32 am »

And your side spent 4 years trying to get Trump out of office instead of accepting the election.

It's not partisan politics, Alan.  It's the fact that an incompetent fool who would be under indictment right now were it not for the immunity of the office is the guy in the seat.  I promise you, if a Democrat had done the stuff Trump did, I'd be just as adamant. 

The things is, if it was a Democrat, so would you.  And that sucks.
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Alan Klein

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #6190 on: July 14, 2020, 12:10:40 pm »

It's not partisan politics, Alan.  It's the fact that an incompetent fool who would be under indictment right now were it not for the immunity of the office is the guy in the seat.  I promise you, if a Democrat had done the stuff Trump did, I'd be just as adamant. 

The things is, if it was a Democrat, so would you.  And that sucks.
The Clinton Foundation took in millions by using Hillary's position as Secre of State.  They were paid millions in speaking fees for access.   Read about how corrupt they were with the Travel Office, Whitewater and other things.  Hillary got the FBI to go after the owner of the Travel Office criminally with fake charges so she could get her friend to take over when Bill became president.   They jury threw the case out in two hours.  But it was too late.  The guy lost his travel business.   So when she used her Russian dossier against Trump, it was just something they were used to doing.  She lied to everyone about the cell phone servers and personal cell calls.  What a crook.  Bill perjured himself to a grand jury and lost his license to practice law. 

Trump played a lot of business games to make money.  But he wasn't a politician when he did these things.  The Clinton's were.  Arguing she's better and more honest and less corrupt stretches credulity. 

faberryman

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #6191 on: July 14, 2020, 01:25:40 pm »

Read about how corrupt they were with the Travel Office, Whitewater and other things.  Hillary got the FBI to go after the owner of the Travel Office criminally with fake charges so she could get her friend to take over when Bill became president.

We are progressing further down the rabbit hole. The year is now 1993, and we are re-litigating TravelGate. I am going to take a brief time out, and do something productive, like reorganize my sock drawer.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2020, 01:29:41 pm by faberryman »
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hogloff

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #6192 on: July 14, 2020, 01:28:57 pm »

We are now progressing further down the rabbit hole. The year is now 1993, and we are re-litigating TravelGate. I am going to take a brief time out, and do something productive, like reorganize my sock drawer.

Hint...remove the ones with big holes. Makes the job so much easier.
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PeterAit

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #6193 on: July 14, 2020, 04:39:36 pm »

Tom Friedman is not a centrist and is also a Trump hater.  Of course his ideas would be to protect Biden.  He's trying to provide a rationale to allow Biden to avoid the debates.  Friedman knows that if the voters see his senility, he'll lose the election.  Americans want someone tough to deal with Xi and all the other tyrants in the world.  So how the candidates handle themselves in the debates will be on everyone's minds.  Frankly, Trump isn't the smoothest debater either.  So I don't know if Biden has that much to worry about.

I notice that you fail to really address the content of my message.

Friedman is most certainly a centrist, perhaps a tad to the left. If you do not see that perhaps it is because you are so far over on the right.

As for tyrants, give us a break. Trump has been a huge flop with North Korea. He's a pal with Duterte. And, worst of all, he is a sycophant of Putin's. He's gotten nowhere with China, not a peep that I know of about Hong Kong or the Uighurs. I will give him credit--assuming it was him--for sending the navy to the South China Sea to push back on China's unwarranted territorial claims. I'll have to write that down on the post-it where I keep a list of his good deeds.

Remember, this is the guy who said, a while back, that during the American revolution, the Continental Army "took the airports" from the British.
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Peter

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Alan Klein

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #6194 on: July 14, 2020, 05:23:38 pm »

I notice that you fail to really address the content of my message.

Friedman is most certainly a centrist, perhaps a tad to the left. If you do not see that perhaps it is because you are so far over on the right.

As for tyrants, give us a break. Trump has been a huge flop with North Korea. He's a pal with Duterte. And, worst of all, he is a sycophant of Putin's. He's gotten nowhere with China, not a peep that I know of about Hong Kong or the Uighurs. I will give him credit--assuming it was him--for sending the navy to the South China Sea to push back on China's unwarranted territorial claims. I'll have to write that down on the post-it where I keep a list of his good deeds.

Remember, this is the guy who said, a while back, that during the American revolution, the Continental Army "took the airports" from the British.
Trump had China figured out long before all the Democrats and Republicans who kowtowed to them for decades.  China's been stealing our intellectual property and other secrets for years, manipulating industry and finance and their currency, stealing islands in the South China Sea, and gave us the virus which may destroy our primacy in international affairs and finance.  The average American has more sense then our stupid politicians.  Americans understand they've been walking all over us and others.  Trump has tried to fight back with little help from our biased press.  The press and most politicians were focused on Russia, who's no threat to us or the world, meanwhile looking the other way as China walks all over everyone.  Even the Europeans were stupid allowing China to get out of the Paris CO2 environmental requirements until 2030.  They steal Europe's secrets too.  The Chinese are laughing all the way to the bank.

faberryman

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #6195 on: July 14, 2020, 05:44:44 pm »

Okay, I'm back. Thanks to hogloff's hint, it went quicker than I thought. I am heartened to see that no one took the bait to discuss TravelGate, so we can leave that behind us. Apparently even Alan didn't think it was worth the effort, so he's moved on to China...again. I hope everyone shows the same good sense they exhibited with TravelGate.

Did you see this:

Government Rescinds Plan to Strip Visas From Foreign Students in Online Classes

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/14/us/coronavirus-international-foreign-student-visas.html

That bold initiative lasted a week. More winning. Apparently Stephen Miller is now under his desk crying uncontrollably.

And another patriot refuses to wear a mask as his last act.

Michigan man refused service for not wearing mask stabs customer, is fatally shot by deputy

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/michigan-man-refused-service-not-wearing-mask-stabs-customer-fatally-n1233810

Just another day in the good old USA.

I remember a line from the police drama Hill Street Blues: "Let's be careful out there."
« Last Edit: July 14, 2020, 06:41:53 pm by faberryman »
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Chris Kern

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #6196 on: July 14, 2020, 06:02:49 pm »

I am heartened to see that no one took the bait . . .

Abandon all hope, ye who enter this thread.

LesPalenik

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #6197 on: July 14, 2020, 06:57:58 pm »


Michigan man refused service for not wearing mask stabs customer, is fatally shot by deputy

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/michigan-man-refused-service-not-wearing-mask-stabs-customer-fatally-n1233810


I guess that the knife wielding guy was white.

faberryman

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #6198 on: July 14, 2020, 07:19:43 pm »

I guess that the knife wielding guy was white.

The article didn't say, but I assume so. The people that police kill are, for the most part, armed. The BLM protests are about the killing of unarmed black men. You rarely hear about the police killing an unarmed white man.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2020, 08:11:09 pm by faberryman »
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kers

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Re: PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political
« Reply #6199 on: July 14, 2020, 07:44:32 pm »

Trump had China figured out long before all the Democrats and Republicans who kowtowed to them for decades.  China's been stealing our intellectual property and other secrets for years, manipulating industry and finance and their currency, stealing islands in the South China Sea, and gave us the virus which may destroy our primacy in international affairs and finance.  The average American has more sense then our stupid politicians.  Americans understand they've been walking all over us and others.  Trump has tried to fight back with little help from our biased press.  The press and most politicians were focused on Russia, who's no threat to us or the world, meanwhile looking the other way as China walks all over everyone.  Even the Europeans were stupid allowing China to get out of the Paris CO2 environmental requirements until 2030.  They steal Europe's secrets too.  The Chinese are laughing all the way to the bank.
All Americans do not include republicans and democrats  i understand; leaves us... ? Trump and some Qanan believers that are ... always right.
China- the Chinese people- are still making about everything you need at low prices;  We could be grateful for that; it helped booming many economies.
At the moment Huawei is being expelled from making 5G networks on the not proven assumption it may include spyware in the networks; However the only country that has been proven wrong in that respect is the United States.
At least on two proven occasions as far as i know; in modems and in Swiss encrypting machines that everyone thought they could trust.
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