PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political

[JoeKitchen]

There are many names you can call them, none good. They interrupted care for some people. There are reports that people couldn't make it to dialysis because of them, among others. When your right to party is more important than other's right to live you deserve no respect. When healthcare providers from both sides of the political spectrum are in agreement about this there is no argument to be had here.

I would bet my ass against a hand grenade that if a bunch of Dems wanted to drive to DC to protest Trump and Trump used the excuse of social distancing to shut it down, you would loose your mind over it.

So dont give me this BS. 

[faberryman]

No, he goaded people into debating whether or not WHO is to blame and away from only discussing his response.   Politically it was a brilliant move, especially since most agree WHO holds a lot of responsibility. 

I am just surprised after 4 years, the left still falls for this.

Fortunately, I can walk and chew gum at the same time.

[Alan Klein]

We are like this becuase we WANT to be like this and this system is tried and true.  National rule would be a disaster for a country as diverse as ours and perhaps the lack of such is why we have been so suscessful.  You think of it as a flaw, while most of us think of it as a godsend.  To think it works "poorly" perhaps reflects  your limited access to our freedoms.  Maybe those freedoms don't inspire you.  American as a whole find that they do.  Our consitiution is mostly reverered and has survived because it works.

As to speaking with "one voice", most Americans reject that completely. Your voice may not speak to my values and mine not to yours.  We find that important.  We value independence, perhaps you simply cannot understand why. We are far more indivuduals than a collective. 

Its often said that diversity is our strength and not a hinderence.  Its true in my opinion.  Not all roses to be sure but its part of why we have become the country we have become.  Our freedom sure must inspire others to want to be part of it given the amount of people trying to get here.

Well said. What else can you expect from a person who is so soured on his own country that he's lived in a foreign land for decades.  Misery wants company.

[armand]

If you read the whole article, written by a doctor, professor of medicine at Yale and director of the Yale New Haven Hospital Center for Outcomes Research and Evaluation, you would see that he specifically made a point that he is not talking about empty beds for elective procedures, but empty beds meant for emergencies other than C19.

Yes, I knew the article. My point remains, because it's quite contagious you need to have certain spread. Most hospitals are bracing for impact but those are are hit (NYC, Detroit) are in a bad shape despite those numbers.
It will get worse, some of those patients are delaying stuff until it will get bad, and that's another problem.
And maybe not that many people needed expensive hospital care and would be better served by a more developed primary care system, but that's a discussion for another time.

I would bet my ass against a hand grenade that if a bunch of Dems wanted to drive to DC to protest Trump and Trump used the excuse of social distancing to shut it down, you would loose your mind over it.

So dont give me this BS. 

No. If it involves denying medical care/or other essential rights to other people I won't agree, regardless who is doing it. There are some core principles that I will not bend, I could care less about the politics of it.

[LesPalenik]

Yale New Haven Hospital, where I work, has almost 300 people stricken with Covid-19, and the numbers keep rising — and yet we are not yet at capacity because of a marked decline in our usual types of patients. In more normal times, we never have so many empty beds.

That's not surprising, since there are now no elective surgeries and even other cases have been postponed - either by the doctors or by the patients.
Here, in Ontario even some labs were temporarily closed, since the patients can't get test requisitions from their doctors.

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

That is another false argument: it has nothing to do with wealth; it has everything to do with being apart from other people...

Really!?

Let's see how that works for the poor in India,  black ghettos in the States, favelas in Latin America. How easy is to enjoy splendid isolation when you are living on a $1 a month (from a friend in Venezuela):

living here is hell no food no medicines, country is full of Hezbollah, iranis irakis, cubans ruling, Farc guerrilas, narco regime dictatorship etc.. we live on less than a dollar per month, no jobs nothing.. i have reached the poor level and my brothers and sisters send me monthly little help to buy some food that only lasts for aproximately 10 days.. the rest of the month.....fine thanks.. but they dont realize they know the situation but one can never truly understand it unless you live here. every day prices go up twice three times a day its impossible to keep up with this.. impossible.. now with quarantine even more. i have to travel to italy sometimes in july in order to go there and apply for my financial help which if i get it i would live on barely 550 eur which a person like me who has nothing anymore and is ised to poverty i guess i could manage.. but i do not even have a penny to buy a ticket and to have some money in my pocket to remain there  3 months which is the aprox. time to  receive the so called financial help..so you see i cant even dream of hopping on a plane. i get depressed a lot and try to keep cool but its soop strong what im facing that many time i feel like.....

[Alan Klein]

Some hospitals in the country are actually going bankrupt due to lack of any services being given.  Kind of destroys the narrative we are being over run. 

Hospitals are businesses just like any other business. Less clients; less sales.

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

That's not surprising, since there are now no elective surgeries and even other cases have been postponed - either by the doctors or by the patients.
Here, in Ontario even some labs were temporarily closed, since the patients can't get test requisitions from their doctors.

Les, I already addressed that in a few posts above:

If you read the whole article, written by a doctor, professor of medicine at Yale and director of the Yale New Haven Hospital Center for Outcomes Research and Evaluation, you would see that he specifically made a point that he is not talking about empty beds for elective procedures, but empty beds meant for emergencies other than C19.

[chez]

There is a very long history of appendix operations to reference so as to make sure you are not going to screw up.  This, by definition, means it does not fit into your working "on the edge of the unknown." 

However, there is no history of forcibly shutting down the entire world to reference to make sure we are not screwing it up.  Not to mention we still know very little about the virus, such as the true fatality rate.  And since "it is very hard to be right on things not known yet," we could very well be totally botching this right now. 

This means there is nothing wrong with questioning the narrative, since you yourself say it is so easy to not be right in a situation like this.

But there has been some previous experience with infectious diseases and just going about our usual business does not bring good results. Isolation and distancing has worked better than not locking down so we are using data from what was learned painfully previously.

I believe BC is in good shape because our chief medical doctor was fully involved with both Ebola outbreak and SARS...and the premier is totally given the reins to this expert. Not learning from the past and just business as normal will lead to many, many more deaths.

[chez]

So let me see what Chez is saying.  Experts can't be expected to always be right because of the unusual circumstances, so lets cut themsome slack here.  However Trump SHOULD have known better therefor he is responsible for deaths, even though he took the word of "experts" who don't always get it right and deserve a break.

And of course in bizzarro Bernard world, Trump is now responsible for 90% of the US deaths.

Oh so "logical".

Well Craig other leaders listened to those same experts and got it right. Where does that leave Trump...dumber than a doorknob or someone who knows better than the experts. In either case, he failed.

[Alan Klein]

That's not surprising, since there are now no elective surgeries and even other cases have been postponed - either by the doctors or by the patients.
Here, in Ontario even some labs were temporarily closed, since the patients can't get test requisitions from their doctors.

When everything shut down, I had diabetes appointments and blood test for it with my endocrinologist. Cancelled.  Also, I was scheduled for a crown after I had competed root canal work which was killing me with pain, with no dentist available to help me.  Fortunately, it got better but meanwhile other dental issues have popped up.  My glasses broke and I'm using an old pair with a different prescription. (Hard to focus my camera).  What are people doing who really have medical issues?  Meanwhile I'm dying for a fresh slice of pizza with none in sight. I'm settling for a grilled cheese and tomato on whole wheat sliced bread which is just not the same. 

[JoeKitchen]

Fortunately, I can walk and chew gum at the same time.

That's a lot then what the media can do it seems.

[faberryman]

Meanwhile I'm dying for a fresh slice of pizza with none in sight. I'm settling for a grilled cheese and tomato on whole wheat sliced bread which is just not the same. 

I thought you were going out to your favorite pizza restaurant for take-out. Have you given that up?

[chez]

Could we possibly have a discussion without name calling? Asking for a friend.

Slobodan...really? You?

[Alan Klein]

Many here are still talking about isolation?  Meanwhile, everyone else in the world is moving on and talking about their failing economies and the need to get back to work. America is announcing today their plans to re-open its economy.  State governments and their governors have been announcing similar plans.  People here are stuck on keeping everything shut down.  Hey, fellers.  The train has left the station.  Do you have anything to contribute to the future?

[LesPalenik]

Les, I already addressed that in a few posts above:

Thanks for pointing it out Slobodan, when I wrote it, I didn't see the subsequent posts.

However, the C19 crisis created a real mess in the hospitals, clinics, and retirement/nursing homes, and not only due to available beds in emergency departments.
I don't know how many emergency beds are available in our hospitals, but here in Ontario there are not enough available doctors. Some retired doctors renewed their licences and are now helping out, but that's still not enough.
Same for nurses and other support staff, many of them are sick and not available for work. Some nurses were working in multiple nursing homes, but that practice has been banned now (which makes a lot of sense), and consequently, many nursing and retirement homes are now understaffed.

Pretty much all non-critical medical and physiotherapy appointments have been canceled and postponed. Many of these cases will become critical.

[Alan Klein]

I thought you were going out to your favorite pizza restaurant for take-out. Have you given that up?

Good point.  I'm not sure they're still open.  But I'm staying isolated until it's safer to go out.  Fortunately, I'm retired and don't work.  So I don;t have to take additional risks.

[Alan Klein]

Thanks for pointing it out Slobodan, when I wrote it, I didn't see the subsequent posts.

However, the C19 crisis created a real mess in the hospitals, clinics, and retirement/nursing homes, and not only due to available beds in emergency departments.
I don't know how many emergency beds are available in our hospitals, but here in Ontario there are not enough available doctors. Some retired doctors renewed their licences and are now helping out, but that's still not enough.
Same for nurses and other support staff, many of them are sick and not available for work. Some nurses were working in multiple nursing homes, but that practice has been banned now (which makes a lot of sense), and consequently, many nursing and retirement homes are now understaffed.

Pretty much all non-critical medical and physiotherapy appointments have been canceled and postponed. Many of these cases will become critical.

Will those cases outnumber the virus cases and deaths soon?  I have a friend whose daughter has cancer somewhat in remission but still on active treatment.  She's been getting it for a year or two.  I'm not sure she's still receiving the same care now.  If so, she's in a lot of jeopardy.  Multiply that by millions.

[chez]

Many here are still talking about isolation?  Meanwhile, everyone else in the world is moving on and talking about their failing economies and the need to get back to work. America is announcing today their plans to re-open its economy.  State governments and their governors have been announcing similar plans.  People here are stuck on keeping everything shut down.  Hey, fellers.  The train has left the station.  Do you have anything to contribute to the future?

Yes. Until you have things under control...it's stupid to open up. Yesterday was the worst day in deaths in the US...maybe we should still talk about saving lives than opening up your favourite pizza parlour.

[Craig Lamson]

Well Craig other leaders listened to those same experts and got it right. Where does that leave Trump...dumber than a doorknob or someone who knows better than the experts. In either case, he failed.

Nice try but an utter failure Chez, which is pretty much par for the course for you....

Better yet, tell us who those leaders were and what experts both they and Trump listened to and the timeline.  You have a very solid track record of shooting your mouth off making claims that have nobasis in fact.  Prove your claim, if you can. Or slink away, your choice.