PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political

[Rob C]

That is exactly my point.  Social distancing is not the same of low population density, and can not be expected to be anywhere near effective.

That last sentence makes sense: it has little to do with population density and everything to do with keeping well apart (two metres seems terribly close!) and better yet, upwind of anybody else. That it is clearly more difficult to achieve in cities is even more revelatory of the need to stay at home as much as you can.

[Craig Lamson]

The US works pretty poorly in a great many respects, just as does any country. The US is mainly different in that its population likes to have lots of guns and is obsessed with this fear of being robbed of some archaic rights long irrelevant to today's world, and actually more than a little counterproductive to its wellbeing today.

It does have the problem of having to cope with having far too many different races and religions deeply built into its structure, thus losing a common sense of national unity that runs second to its senses of colour and original ethnicity from Europe and elsewhere. Those things aside, it contains the usual mixture of wise men and idiots as does almost anywhere else. In fact it may, in a sense, be ahead of the curve: much of Europe is building up for itself through immigration that very same state of lack of national unity and of conflicting religions and language to be found in America already.

That the fragmentation of legal and political control is so prevalent in your country, with different states free to go the way their governors think may get them re-elected is one reason why you face many of the current problems that you do and why fierce fights develop. Nobody speaks with one voice - they can't.

Frankly, you represent the wost-case scenario of what Europe might become, much the reason for the victory of the Brexiteers who saw too much integration turning a loose alliance of business and social convenience into something closer to the States. As long as Britain kept its own currency, all it had to do was take advantage of the bonuses of membership. In reality, it always controlled its own borders, and well before joining the political entity of the Community it had already lost any idea of how many people were inside there legally or otherwise. Controlling your own borders should never be taken to imply that you can or do do it well.

Understanding how the USA works is not rocket science: internationally, we get deep lessons of it every bloody day on our tv screens. Or at least, we did before lock-down stopped reporters from doing that.

We are like this becuase we WANT to be like this and this system is tried and true.  National rule would be a disaster for a country as diverse as ours and perhaps the lack of such is why we have been so suscessful.  You think of it as a flaw, while most of us think of it as a godsend.  To think it works "poorly" perhaps reflects  your limited access to our freedoms.  Maybe those freedoms don't inspire you.  American as a whole find that they do.  Our consitiution is mostly reverered and has survived because it works.

As to speaking with "one voice", most Americans reject that completely. Your voice may not speak to my values and mine not to yours.  We find that important.  We value independence, perhaps you simply cannot understand why. We are far more indivuduals than a collective. 

Its often said that diversity is our strength and not a hinderence.  Its true in my opinion.  Not all roses to be sure but its part of why we have become the country we have become.  Our freedom sure must inspire others to want to be part of it given the amount of people trying to get here.

[JoeKitchen]

That last sentence makes sense: it has little to do with population density and everything to do with keeping well apart (two metres seems terribly close!) and better yet, upwind of anybody else. That it is clearly more difficult to achieve in cities is even more revelatory of the need to stay at home as much as you can.

But Rob, as was proven with my Aunt, it is impossible to not deal with objects that have been in the hands of others.  In high densities, more hands touch those objects (like medicine and food) over a shorter period of time. 

Like I said, it may be the case that social distancing has a very low effect compared to truly living in a low density area.  This should be discussed, but it is not, or at least not at the Trump pressers.  Not just because of Trump; the reporters refuse to ask any hard questions that are not designed to get Trump. 

[Rob C]

Whatever social distancing makes sense, it should be voluntary. Otherwise, in NY and similar places, wear masks, gloves, and wash your hands often.

On the contrary: it should be and often is compulsory. Because it does always make sense.

You should follow the further advice you gave regardless of where you live.

[armand]

Ooops... sh1t happens. Never mind that in most countries makeshift hospitals are operating at 10-50% capacity. Or that doctors are hanging out on social media.

Neither have I. Nor 95% of those infected.

Doctors, too, have to have time off to function at their job.

Makeshift hospitals - in the UK at least - do no take all sorts of patients: they are purpose-built to handle overload. As normal medical attention to non-covid patients has been almost totally suspended, doesn't that tell you something about how full 'normal' hospitals aready are with Corries' babes?

Yes, Rob, Slobodan is just trying to be an asshole, he's quite successful at that. Paraphrasing what I tell my kids, being an asshole from time to time can be fun, but if you do it all the time you are just an asshole.

In his limited thinking healthcare providers should spend all their lives in the hospital, some dying, just so we can cover for his right to be an asshole. If you scratch below the surface you realize this is actually communist thinking at its best, he has Stockholm syndrome.



And Joe discovered the sliced bread, with the bias in science. They have been know for a while, they come with the territory. Here is some education for you: https://science.howstuffworks.com/life/inside-the-mind/human-brain/10-types-study-bias.htm

Here are some pictures of the specimens who went to "protest" yesterday.

[JoeKitchen]

Yes, Rob, Slobodan is just trying to be an asshole, he's quite successful at that. Paraphrasing what I tell my kids, being an asshole from time to time can be fun, but if you do it all the time you are just an asshole.

In his limited thinking healthcare providers should spend all their lives in the hospital, some dying, just so we can cover for his right to be an asshole. If you scratch below the surface you realize this is actually communist thinking at its best, he has Stockholm syndrome.



And Joe discovered the sliced bread, with the bias in science. They have been know for a while, they come with the territory. Here is some education for you: https://science.howstuffworks.com/life/inside-the-mind/human-brain/10-types-study-bias.htm

Here are some pictures of the specimens who went to "protest" yesterday.

So you know they exist, yet admonish any one who points it out and raises legitimate questions?

A true scientist you are!

And as I said yesterday, people have a right to protest, deal with it.  I do not believe in giving up my first amendment rights just because you say so. 

[armand]

But Rob, as was proven with my Aunt, it is impossible to not deal with objects that have been in the hands of others.  In high densities, more hands touch those objects (like medicine and food) over a shorter period of time. 

Like I said, it may be the case that social distancing has a very low effect compared to truly living in a low density area.

She took it by direct contact with a contaminated surface. What she had to do is what I do, wash/sanitize everything that comes from outside. Wash your hands after you manipulate anything that comes from outside. Obviously is not that always easy and can be time consuming, but I have a wild guess most will have the time.

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

... As normal medical attention to non-covid patients has been almost totally suspended...

Another fake news. Well, I do not know about Spain, as it has socialized medicine, where waiting for appointment is a fact of life.

But, hey, let's look into New York, which single handedly accounts for 40% of US deaths - what you are claiming is simply not true:

(Bold mine)

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/06/well/live/coronavirus-doctors-hospitals-emergency-care-heart-attack-stroke.html

The hospitals are eerily quiet, except for Covid-19.

Yale New Haven Hospital, where I work, has almost 300 people stricken with Covid-19, and the numbers keep rising — and yet we are not yet at capacity because of a marked decline in our usual types of patients. In more normal times, we never have so many empty beds.

The public needs to know that hospitals are equipped not only to care for people with Covid-19 but also those who have other life-threatening health problems. Yes, we in health care are working to keep people out of the hospital if we can, but we can safely provide care for those people who are not sick from Covid-19.

[armand]

So you know they exist, yet admonish any one who points it out and raises legitimate questions?

A true scientist you are!

That's not what you are doing. You just found something that fits with your narrative and jumped on it, because it fits, not understanding these have been around since the beginning of science.

[JoeKitchen]

That's not what you are doing. You just found something that fits with your narrative and jumped on it, because it fits, not understanding these have been around since the beginning of science.

Just keep it up, keep on drawing up those elite excuses to keep people from questioning any narrative from the experts you treasure so much. 

[Rob C]

No, it's both!

It is a fallacy to blame someone in hindsight using information discovered after the fact, hence hindsight fallacy. 

The bias is only applying that to one side and not the other, which is what many are doing.

By your own definition, then, you are deeply biased?

[JoeKitchen]

By your own definition, then, you are deeply biassed?

LOL Rob.  First, look up hindsight fallacy and you will see it is exactly what I describe it as.  Second, I dont blame anyone, no republican or democrat, so I cant really be biased here. 

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

... Here are some pictures of the specimens who went to "protest" yesterday.

Specimens? You mean the Deplorables?

[JoeKitchen]

Another fake news. Well, I do not know about Spain, as it has socialized medicine, where waiting for appointment is a fact of life.

But, hey, let's look into New York, which single handedly accounts for 40% of US deaths - what you are claiming is simply not true:

(Bold mine)

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/06/well/live/coronavirus-doctors-hospitals-emergency-care-heart-attack-stroke.html

Yale New Haven Hospital, where I work, has almost 300 people stricken with Covid-19, and the numbers keep rising — and yet we are not yet at capacity because of a marked decline in our usual types of patients. In more normal times, we never have so many empty beds.

Some hospitals in the country are actually going bankrupt due to lack of any services being given.  Kind of destroys the narrative we are being over run. 

[JoeKitchen]

Specimens? You mean the Deplorables?

I think you mean "dead men walking," right?   

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

On the contrary: it should be and often is compulsory...

Spoken like a true Stalinist.

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

Yes, Rob, Slobodan is just trying to be an asshole...

Could we possibly have a discussion without name calling? Asking for a friend.

[armand]

Another fake news. Well, I do not know about Spain, as it has socialized medicine, where waiting for appointment is a fact of life.

But, hey, let's look into New York, which single handedly accounts for 40% of US deaths - what you are claiming is simply not true:

(Bold mine)

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/06/well/live/coronavirus-doctors-hospitals-emergency-care-heart-attack-stroke.html

Yale New Haven Hospital, where I work, has almost 300 people stricken with Covid-19, and the numbers keep rising — and yet we are not yet at capacity because of a marked decline in our usual types of patients. In more normal times, we never have so many empty beds.

You don't get it. You don't want to get it. Stop being so thick! I know you can if you want to.

The total capacity is not filled because no elective cases and because people with different ailments that are not critical are not coming.
The capacity to deal to critical care patients/Covid has been hugely increased and there is a large deficits of providers to deal with this specific group. Of course the hospitals will deal with emergencies, just know that those are at a very increased risk to get the virus and that usual care it's being changed, particularly if it involves procedures. If the patient turns out to be Covid positive, others that came after could be infected, and the entire thing has to taken out of circuit . We barely do CT anymore, a relatively basic thing among others. But no, it's a hoax. You are unbelievable.

Specimens? You mean the Deplorables?

There are many names you can call them, none good. They interrupted care for some people. There are reports that people couldn't make it to dialysis because of them, among others. When your right to party is more important than other's right to live you deserve no respect. When healthcare providers from both sides of the political spectrum are in agreement about this there is no argument to be had here.

Some hospitals in the country are actually going bankrupt due to lack of any services being given.  Kind of destroys the narrative we are being over run. 

See above if you care to understand. Go in one of those hospitals that are under capacity and talk after. It's so easy to be an expert from the armchair while being totally clueless on that's happening. Yes, the hospitals are actually losing money because they can't take care of other patients. More Covid cases and the situation will be even worse. Do you know that they have large freezers outside the hospitals in Detroit because there is no room in the funeral homes anymore?


I'm out, there is no way to get this info to you without you trying to spin it.

[Robert Roaldi]

Interesting podcast (short, about 20-25 min) about how Covid-19 mis-information is propagated on the web, https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/w3csyvpd. The interviewee works for the BBC Office of Monitoring of Dis-informatio, which is a really neat name for a department. They mostly follow the spread of a specific meme, its origins, repetitions and how it sort of goes viral.

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

You don't get it. You don't want to get it. Stop being so thick! I know you can if you want to.

The total capacity is not filled because no elective cases...

If you read the whole article, written by a doctor, professor of medicine at Yale and director of the Yale New Haven Hospital Center for Outcomes Research and Evaluation, you would see that he specifically made a point that he is not talking about empty beds for elective procedures, but empty beds meant for emergencies other than C19.