PLAYPEN: Covid-19 Everything Political

[Alan Klein]

Joe provided half the story, whether intentionally or due to lack of comprehension, or failure to dive beyond the headlines I can't say...

Anyway, what the WHO is saying is that IF we are to escape lockdown, Sweden is the model because they have managed to (semi) successfully rely on a combination of enhanced social responsibility AND a comprehensive public health policy including thorough testing, etc.

What The WHO is pointedly NOT saying is that the Swedish model is inherently superior or is "working better."  But you'll miss those subtleties if you rely on nothing but headlines and preconceived opinion.

Jim, Either it's better or it isn't.  Which is it?

[armand]

I am against the WHO and feel they should be completely overhauled, but Armand doesn't. 

He one wrote it was criminal to defund the WHO.  And most liberals feel the same; they all feel we should be following their advice, which is now lined up to where I am. 

So, I am just using one of your famed institutions against your arguments for lockdown.  I mean if WHO now holds up Sweden, and you insist on following the experts there, you really cant argue against opening up now.

Joe, not everything is black or white regardless your desire to do so. Subtleties and actual comprehension are essential.

1. Yes, I wrote it's criminal to defund WHO now. We are in the midst of a pandemic and many countries are depending on WHO, and even if they make mistakes they are a positive force in this fight. If there is an overhaul to be made, now it's not the moment but after this is over, not to mention overhauls don't usually start with defunding. This is just Trump trying to deflect blame.

2. You continually fail to get this: is this official WHO policy that countries should follow Sweden's model?
Or just one of their experts thinking out loud? Until it's official policy there is nothing to discuss here.

And you have yet to actually address what I wrote before but that's not unusual for you, you are only interested in answering where you think you can score points for your mythical windmill battle.

[elliot_n]

I have no idea what you are getting at?  I was not advocating we all go crazy and party like it is 1999.  Just to get back to work.

Swedes are working from home.

[Alan Klein]

"IF"

I got news for you, we will be leaving this lockdown, which means WHEN we do, we have to have a plan, which is starting to look more and more like Sweden's. 

They're two months closer to herd immunity than everyone else.  Except New Yorkers.

[Alan Klein]

Slobo...I didn't say that...but only your contorted mind would think that. As far as slippery slopes...you have shown over many times you have already slipped down that slope and now just post stupity to get attention. Very much like little Johnny in school acting like a clown to get attention.

When you have to resort to ad hominem attacks, you've lost the argument.  In school, the teacher would throw you off the debating team. 

[Alan Klein]

It's been my feeling since day one that these lockdowns are not worth it, since day one.  Not sure what you are implying here, but I am not following anyone.  I came to this conclusion myself. 

I am just happy to see that, although late to the party once again, the liberals are as well.  Better late then never I guess. 

You and Slobo.  I think he as the first person to say, "let it play out". 

[armand]

That is correct. 

But there are a lot of people here arguing that we cant open because we Americans are too irresponsible, an argument I find dubious.

That's not what I wrote. What I wrote is you can't exactly follow Sweden's model here (if you would want to follow it) because here personal freedom trumps civic duty more than in Sweden, a point you argued for incessantly for a long time.

Second, I never wrote I'm against opening. I argue against indiscriminate opening without having the necessary means in place, which include among others massive testing and isolating sick contacts, along with continued social distancing measures.
What all of you elect to disregard is that if the economy opens but people get sick, the economy will still be practically shut down because of this, see as an example the pork factories. But this point has been made multiple times and if you didn't get by now I doubt it will change, only when faced with evidence you'll see it (maybe).

[elliot_n]

When you have to resort to ad hominem attacks, you've lost the argument.  In school, the teacher would throw you off the debating team. 

When you have to resort to racist attacks, you've lost the argument.  In school, the teacher would throw you off the debating team.

[Alan Klein]

I have no idea what you are getting at?  I was not advocating we all go crazy and party like it is 1999.  Just to get back to work.

Oh, Joe, just stay home like everyone else and wait for the government check.  What?  It's our money.  That's like getting a blood transfusion into your left arm from your right arm.   

[John Camp]

As I keep pointing out, Sweden is in trouble. Some of the people here seem to have severe problems understanding simple numbers -- Sweden has a higher death rate per million (so far) than anywhere on earth except the central European counties, which got hit hard before they had a chance to defend themselves, and the US, which had millions of visitors from the infested zone, and is also saddled with Dumbo the Orange Elephant as President. Sweden has 263 deaths per million, for Christ's sakes, compared to 39 in its closest neighbor, Norway. It has has more deaths per million than any other Scandinavian country, or, indeed, any of the countries on the European periphery. Why do people to continue to hold it up as an example that we should emulate? (Actually, I know the answer to that question, but I'm too polite to post it.)

[faberryman]

I got news for you, we will be leaving this lockdown, which means WHEN we do, we have to have a plan, which is starting to look more and more like Sweden's.

Some states already have opened, and the rest will open in the coming weeks. The "plan" is different plans in different states. It doesn't look like the states are following the federal reopening guidelines. As far as I can tell there is no mandatory testing required anywhere.

[faberryman]

Florida is now withholding the Medical Examiners' reports' because they show COVID-19 deaths higher than those of the Department of Health. The governor has reopened Florida with the exception of Miami Dade County.

https://news.yahoo.com/flu-deaths-were-counted-covid-053449918.html

[Robert Roaldi]

Trump knows a secret and he's not telling https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/apr/30/donald-trump-coronavirus-chinese-lab-claim, claiming that the virus originated in a Chinese lab, in contradiction to his own intelligence staff.

Let's see, will he walk this back on Saturday or Sunday?

Have we entered the Twilight Zone?

I mean if there was a lab in China working on biological weapons, surely they could do better than this.

[chez]

It's been my feeling since day one that these lockdowns are not worth it, since day one.  Not sure what you are implying here, but I am not following anyone.  I came to this conclusion myself. 

I am just happy to see that, although late to the party once again, the liberals are as well.  Better late then never I guess.

Not the lock downs but the WHO. You call them a bunch of garbage when they make certain statements, but when they make a statement that lines up with your views...you parade around that statement.

[chez]

That is correct. 

But there are a lot of people here arguing that we cant open because we Americans are too irresponsible, an argument I find dubious.

Carrying automatic guns to a protest?

[chez]

Jim, Either it's better or it isn't.  Which is it?

Game ain't over yet.

[Alan Klein]

When you have to resort to racist attacks, you've lost the argument.  In school, the teacher would throw you off the debating team.

I never resorted to a racist attack.  You're making things up now. 

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

Boys, boys, you were the ones to bring race into conversation. As usual, you think it is perfectly ok as long as you attack whites.

[chez]

They're two months closer to herd immunity than everyone else.  Except New Yorkers.

I haven't seen any concrete data that says you cannot get infected a 2nd time...nor that the virus can mutate over time.

[chez]

When you have to resort to ad hominem attacks, you've lost the argument.  In school, the teacher would throw you off the debating team.

Sometimes you need to speak at the level your audience ( Slobo ) understands.