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Author Topic: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS  (Read 197268 times)

Alan Klein

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #1840 on: July 20, 2020, 02:51:50 pm »

What are you talking about? There were no issues to be concerned about. The original speculation about blood type was just that, SPECULATION that needed further study. And that's what happened. End of story. Your assertion that this shows that experts cannot be trusted is absurd.

If there were articles that repeated the dangers to people with Blood Type A they did not appear in scientific journals. It was the usual media repetition about things that they don't know anything about. Stop reading what you're reading and calling it expert opinion when it is definitely NOT that.

NO ONE is asking you to separate the wheat from the chaff in matters medical. Your doctors and public health authorities do that for you. Listen to them. Why are you wasting your time reading crap in the media. How many more times are we going to have this conversation?




I repeat, if you're not going to believe experts then stop reading the stuff. How many more times are we going to have to listen to that?
Here is an earlier June 17, 2020 article by Texas Medical Center referring to a study by the New England Journal of Medicine.  The research concluded that A type blood is more dangerous regarding Covid.  That's pretty expert to me. 

Alan Klein

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #1841 on: July 20, 2020, 02:53:40 pm »

Here's the conclusion: "“Our genetic data confirm that blood group O is associated with a risk of acquiring Covid-19 that was lower than that in non-O blood groups, whereas blood group A was associated with a higher risk than non-A blood groups,” researchers concluded."

hogloff

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #1842 on: July 20, 2020, 02:59:38 pm »

You're being insulting.  I don't appreciate it.  My wife and I, both elderly and both type A blood type, have been following this issue for weeks. We're not dummies.  My wife's smarter than me with two Masters. Both of us have been using masks and staying away from others.  Every article for weeks has been repeating the dangers to people with Type A blood.  I recall figures of up to 40% worse effects and death than those with other types.  So just to dismiss our concerns as nonsensical bafflegab now that they're reversing their concerns, is just insulting.  Asking people to cull the wheat from the chaff is often difficult.  You're the one making it a political issue, not me.  There's too much guessing and too many assumptions.

Would you rather have nothing said until it is known 100%. What if there was an issue with Type A blood, but they weren't 100% sure ( like most things in this world, nothing is 100% )...would it be better they held onto their findings will people died? You can't have your cake and eat it too.

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faberryman

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #1843 on: July 20, 2020, 03:22:11 pm »

Here's the conclusion: "“Our genetic data confirm that blood group O is associated with a risk of acquiring Covid-19 that was lower than that in non-O blood groups, whereas blood group A was associated with a higher risk than non-A blood groups,” researchers concluded."

Looking at your quote, I noted several words and highlighted them.

I couldn't find a Texas Medical Center (TMC) article dated June 17, 2020 and you didn't leave a link. There is a June 30 TMC article on the subject which refers the the New England Journal of Medicine study. It said this:

Yet inherent limitations of the NEJM study mean it’s too soon to definitively link blood type to COVID-19 outcomes.

And of course, there is this:

"In addition to finding a potential link between blood type and COVID-19 severity, authors of the NEJM paper detected a cluster of six genes with potential relation to COVID-19 severity, as well. The authors reiterated that further study was necessary for both connections, writing that the “pragmatic aspects leading to the feasibility of this massive undertaking in a very short period of time during the extreme clinical circumstances of the pandemic imposed limitations that will be important to explore in follow-up studies.”
« Last Edit: July 20, 2020, 03:31:50 pm by faberryman »
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Alan Klein

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #1844 on: July 20, 2020, 03:29:20 pm »

You forgot to read this part:

Yet inherent limitations ohf the NEJM study mean it’s too soon to definitively link blood type to COVID-19 outcomes.

And of course, there is this:

"In addition to finding a potential link between blood type and COVID-19 severity, authors of the NEJM paper detected a cluster of six genes with potential relation to COVID-19 severity, as well. The authors reiterated that further study was necessary for both connections, writing that the “pragmatic aspects leading to the feasibility of this massive undertaking in a very short period of time during the extreme clinical circumstances of the pandemic imposed limitations that will be important to explore in follow-up studies.”
People don't read the studies.  They read the headlines and newscasts.  They also say more studies have to be done with masks to determine the actual efficacy of the different types of masks.  So what are we to make of that statement?  How is the public to know if everything is qualified?  That's my point. 

faberryman

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #1845 on: July 20, 2020, 03:56:03 pm »

People don't read the studies.  They read the headlines and newscasts.  They also say more studies have to be done with masks to determine the actual efficacy of the different types of masks.  So what are we to make of that statement?  How is the public to know if everything is qualified?  That's my point.

Look, if you don't read the articles, you have no one to blame but yourself for needlessly whipping yourself into a frenzy.
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Alan Klein

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #1846 on: July 20, 2020, 04:10:53 pm »

Look, if you don't read the articles, you have no one to blame but yourself for needlessly whipping yourself into a frenzy.
But the article's main point is that A type blood is more dangerous.  In the beginning of the pandemic, are you denying that the CDC said masks weren't necessary for the average person?  Look, I use common sense and have protected myself pretty well with masks, antiseptics, and staying isolated.  Using public information is dangerous to your health.  But many people rely on it and get more confused with the changing standards.  One could argue that the country is "needlessly whipping itself into a frenzy" shutting everything down based in iffy research.  It's a real problem to get the public to go along when the evidence is so disjointed. I'll let it go at that as I may be getting political.

Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #1847 on: July 20, 2020, 04:17:46 pm »

But the article's main point is that A type blood is more dangerous.  In the beginning of the pandemic, are you denying that the CDC said masks weren't necessary for the average person?  Look, I use common sense and have protected myself pretty well with masks, antiseptics, and staying isolated.

In which case masks were indeed not necessary. The CDC was correct.

With people ignoring the social distancing advice, masks can help, when used correctly.

Quote
Using public information is dangerous to your health.

Not if it comes from trusted sources. Not all public sources can be trusted.

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== If you do what you did, you'll get what you got. ==

Alan Klein

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #1848 on: July 20, 2020, 04:23:42 pm »

In which case masks were indeed not necessary. The CDC was correct.

With people ignoring the social distancing advice, masks can help, when used correctly.

Not if it comes from trusted sources. Not all public sources can be trusted.


Stop spinning. The CDC was wrong and deceptive.  The CDC said masks were not needed in the public when the pandemic started.  They wanted average people to not hoard masks so they would be more available to the medical community to purchase. 

Robert Roaldi

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #1849 on: July 20, 2020, 04:41:42 pm »

People don't read the studies.  They read the headlines and newscasts.  They also say more studies have to be done with masks to determine the actual efficacy of the different types of masks.  So what are we to make of that statement?  How is the public to know if everything is qualified?  That's my point.

We've had this conversation before.

Did the surgeon general make reference to blood types?

Did Fauci?

Did the CDC?

Did your doctor?

Why would you expect to get any useful information from a headline about a technical article that neither you nor the reporter are qualified to understand? There are all kinds of articles being written on subjects at the forefront of knowledge that don't turn out to be 100% correct in time. That's how it works. That's why best medical practices do not change every day that some new but unproven finding is mentioned.
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jeremyrh

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #1850 on: July 20, 2020, 04:54:10 pm »

People don't read the studies.  They read the headlines and newscasts.  They also say more studies have to be done with masks to determine the actual efficacy of the different types of masks.  So what are we to make of that statement?  How is the public to know if everything is qualified?  That's my point.

I thought your point was that "experts are lying". Now it turns out that your point is that information is lost when expert publications are summarised for the layman. Any more U turns and you'll need a neck brace.
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Alan Klein

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #1851 on: July 20, 2020, 04:56:41 pm »

We've had this conversation before.

Did the surgeon general make reference to blood types?

Did Fauci?

Did the CDC?

Did your doctor?

Why would you expect to get any useful information from a headline about a technical article that neither you nor the reporter are qualified to understand? There are all kinds of articles being written on subjects at the forefront of knowledge that don't turn out to be 100% correct in time. That's how it works. That's why best medical practices do not change every day that some new but unproven finding is mentioned.

You want me to believe the surgeon general who works directly for Trump who can fire him with a tweet?  Are you serious?  You're whole argument is specious.  To claim that the public should ignore all newscasts as to what the public should do to protect themselves when those newscasts are repeating what is claimed to come from the experts.  WHich of those experts communicate directly with you or me or the general public.  It all gets filtered through the media.  Give me a break.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2020, 05:03:12 pm by Alan Klein »
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Alan Klein

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #1852 on: July 20, 2020, 05:01:58 pm »

I thought your point was that "experts are lying". Now it turns out that your point is that information is lost when expert publications are summarised for the layman. Any more U turns and you'll need a neck brace.
I never said all that.  I said some experts lie, some experts are just plain wrong. Many experts just repeat what other experts say and don't have first hand knowledge.  All media presents the news as they see it.  Some spin more than others.  Like experts, some media just repeats what other media claims, in fact they just copy the same words in their own articles using the bylines of the original writers.  The poor public reads this or that and believes accordingly. 

jeremyrh

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #1853 on: July 20, 2020, 05:05:35 pm »

I never said all that.  I said some experts lie

For example?
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LesPalenik

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #1854 on: July 20, 2020, 05:09:23 pm »

I never said all that.  I said some experts lie, some experts are just plain wrong. Many experts just repeat what other experts say and don't have first hand knowledge.  All media presents the news as they see it.  Some spin more than others.  Like experts, some media just repeats what other media claims, in fact they just copy the same words in their own articles using the bylines of the original writers.  The poor public reads this or that and believes accordingly.

The problem is that some think that they are experts.
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Alan Klein

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #1855 on: July 20, 2020, 05:14:49 pm »

The problem is that some think that they are experts.
Well, everyone here certainly thinks so.  :)

hogloff

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #1856 on: July 20, 2020, 07:29:53 pm »

Stop spinning. The CDC was wrong and deceptive.  The CDC said masks were not needed in the public when the pandemic started.  They wanted average people to not hoard masks so they would be more available to the medical community to purchase.

And now they say to wear them...so what's your beef. Just wear the damn masks. At one time cigarettes were not dangerous, seatbelts were not mandatory and planes had smoking sections. We've learned since then and moved on...not stuck in the mud and bitching endlessly about experts screwing you over.
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Alan Klein

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #1857 on: July 21, 2020, 12:37:17 am »

And now they say to wear them...so what's your beef. Just wear the damn masks. At one time cigarettes were not dangerous, seatbelts were not mandatory and planes had smoking sections. We've learned since then and moved on...not stuck in the mud and bitching endlessly about experts screwing you over.
However, the CDC knew masks helped but lied about it. So they lost credibility. WHy should the public think they're telling the truth now?  A lot of people don't trust the government because of us getting lied to by bureaucrats.  They have good reason to feel that way.

hogloff

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #1858 on: July 21, 2020, 08:17:26 am »

However, the CDC knew masks helped but lied about it. So they lost credibility. WHy should the public think they're telling the truth now?  A lot of people don't trust the government because of us getting lied to by bureaucrats.  They have good reason to feel that way.

Well the CDC had good reason to tell everyone not to wear masks as they were in extreme short supply and were required by the health professionals that were directly dealing with the virus. Surely educated people can understand this. Now we have plenty of these masks and since no one seems to be distancing themselves anymore, masks are a key component to alleviate in spreading this virus. Educated people again must understand this. Surely you Alan must understand this.
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faberryman

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #1859 on: July 21, 2020, 08:18:44 am »

However, the CDC knew masks helped but lied about it. So they lost credibility. WHy should the public think they're telling the truth now?  A lot of people don't trust the government because of us getting lied to by bureaucrats.  They have good reason to feel that way.

Maybe the CDC's earlier remarks were aspirational, intended to provide hope to a troubled nation in a time of crisis. Oh, wait...I am getting mixed up.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2020, 09:17:49 am by faberryman »
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