COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS

[Alan Klein]

If you want to further the discussion, why not post some of those yourself?

Maybe you can find a graph showing how much dead people contribute to the economy. Or better yet, maybe you could find a graph showing how important it is for an economy to have healthy able-bodied people in it. It could be that looking after the health of your citizens is more important to liberty and self-determination than a lot of other things we blow money on.

I have been posting articles describing the economic hardships.  Here are a few more. You tell me how these people are going to feed their families, pay their mortgages or rent, pay for their car rentals, pay their credit cards debts, school debts, etc.  Why don't we ask them what scares them more: Covid 19 or destitution?

United eyes mass layoffs as coronavirus creates 'worst crisis' in airline history
United Airlines Holdings (UAL) warned on Wednesday that it may be forced to furlough as many as 36,000 workers, or 45% of its workforce, as weak demand and travel restrictions in the wake of the coronavirus outbreak create “the worst crisis” the industry has ever faced.
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/united-eyes-mass-layoffs-that-may-impact-up-to-36000-workers-150451961.html

Brooks Brothers Group Inc. filed for bankruptcy, felled by the pandemic’s impact on clothing sales and its own heavy debt load.
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/brooks-brothers-goes-bankrupt-formal-123854417.html

Employment In Arts, Entertainment And Recreation Plummeted By 39 Percent In Los Angeles In April, Says Report From City Controller
https://deadline.com/2020/07/employment-in-arts-entertainment-and-recreation-plummeted-by-39-percent-in-los-angeles-in-april-says-report-from-city-controller-1202978547/

Since you want to see a chart, here's one.


http://www.shadowstats.com/alternate_data/unemployment-charts

[jeremyrh]

I have been posting articles describing the economic hardships.  Here are a few more. You tell me how these people are going to feed their families, pay their mortgages or rent, pay for their car rentals, pay their credit cards debts, school debts, etc.  Why don't we ask them what scares them more: Covid 19 or destitution?

United eyes mass layoffs as coronavirus creates 'worst crisis' in airline history
United Airlines Holdings (UAL) warned on Wednesday that it may be forced to furlough as many as 36,000 workers, or 45% of its workforce, as weak demand and travel restrictions in the wake of the coronavirus outbreak create “the worst crisis” the industry has ever faced.
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/united-eyes-mass-layoffs-that-may-impact-up-to-36000-workers-150451961.html

Brooks Brothers Group Inc. filed for bankruptcy, felled by the pandemic’s impact on clothing sales and its own heavy debt load.
https://finance.yahoo.com/news/brooks-brothers-goes-bankrupt-formal-123854417.html

Employment In Arts, Entertainment And Recreation Plummeted By 39 Percent In Los Angeles In April, Says Report From City Controller
https://deadline.com/2020/07/employment-in-arts-entertainment-and-recreation-plummeted-by-39-percent-in-los-angeles-in-april-says-report-from-city-controller-1202978547/

Since you want to see a chart, here's one.


http://www.shadowstats.com/alternate_data/unemployment-charts

Well now you've discovered clear evidence of the failure of the US economic system maybe you'll be less dogmatic about pretending that government is the root of all evil.

[Alan Klein]

Well now you've discovered clear evidence of the failure of the US economic system maybe you'll be less dogmatic about pretending that government is the root of all evil.

Jeremy, It's the government that causes all these problems.  It was the government that shut down the economy and forced everyone to stay home that caused the unemployment and bankruptcies.  Even in "normal" times, it's always the government that causes problems, not the free market system.  It's because the government interferes with it that we have these problems.  Free markets heal themselves.  Governments aggravate the problems thinking they can fix the economy with central control and monetary and fiscal policies that never work. 

[faberryman]

I have been posting articles describing the economic hardships.  Here are a few more. You tell me how these people are going to feed their families, pay their mortgages or rent, pay for their car rentals, pay their credit cards debts, school debts, etc.  Why don't we ask them what scares them more: Covid 19 or destitution?

Here is another "rugged individualist" who just entered the job market. At least he didn't have a gun. Why don't we ask him which scares him more: wearing a face mask or not being able to support his wife and children.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/costco-dan-fired-insurance-agency-face-mask/

[jeremyrh]

Jeremy, It's the government that causes all these problems.  It was the government that shut down the economy and forced everyone to stay home that caused the unemployment and bankruptcies.  Even in "normal" times, it's always the government that causes problems, not the free market system.  It's because the government interferes with it that we have these problems.  Free markets heal themselves.  Governments aggravate the problems thinking they can fix the economy with central control and monetary and fiscal policies that never work.

Hmm that's odd - because it is precisely the countries with more government intervention that have fared best in this crisis

[hogloff]

Let individuals decide what to do.  If you're afraid of mixing it up in public like I am, do what I do.  Stay home.

Should we take away speed limits on the roads...let people drive whatever speed they want and if someone does not like it...just stay home?

[Alan Klein]

Hmm that's odd - because it is precisely the countries with more government intervention that have fared best in this crisis

You'd prefer living under a Communist regime as in China?

[jeremyrh]

Marginal companies in a free market without government interference would be allowed to go broke.  The better companies would survive making the country more productive.

Reassuring that your understanding of economics is on a par with your understanding of climatology and so much else. There is a common factor which is that they are both non-linear systems. Perhaps a trip to the government funded public library would help?

[jeremyrh]

You'd prefer living under a Communist regime as in China?

Mmm no but I’d be happy to move to New Zealand or Denmark.

[faberryman]

Mmm no but I’d be happy to move to New Zealand or Denmark.

They would let you in? No one will let us in.

[jeremyrh]

Should we take away speed limits on the roads...let people drive whatever speed they want and if someone does not like it...just stay home?

Speeding and puffing away on crack pipes - none of that pesky government intervention.

[Alan Klein]

Should we take away speed limits on the roads...let people drive whatever speed they want and if someone does not like it...just stay home?

It's up to the public.  Don't they have no speed limit on the German Autobahn.  What do Germans do there? 

But you raise a valid point.  What do you do when the freedom of one person interferes with the freedom of another in a dangerous way.  Speeding and Covid do have parallels.  But the comparison is do speed limits impose "undue" hardship and dangers on others?  Similarly does mixing it in public to get to work hurt other people or help regarding the virus?  That's a mixed bag.  Plus old people like me are staying home anyway regardless if younger people work or not.Their risky behavior may not affect me unlike speeding if I have to drive regardless.  Obviously, it's a call we have to make and we come down on different sides.  In any case, most people seem to want to get back to normalcy of some kind.  They're doing it in fits and starts.  I think that's going to continue because of the nature of the problem.  I just don't see the economy getting shut down like it was unless it suddenly becomes really out of hand again. 

[elliot_n]

I just don't see the economy getting shut down like it was unless it suddenly becomes really out of hand again. 

You think it's not out of hand?

[LesPalenik]

It's up to the public.  Don't they have no speed limit on the German Autobahn.  What do Germans do there? 

But you raise a valid point.  What do you do when the freedom of one person interferes with the freedom of another in a dangerous way.  Speeding and Covid do have parallels.  But the comparison is do speed limits impose "undue" hardship and dangers on others?  Similarly does mixing it in public to get to work hurt other people or help regarding the virus?  That's a mixed bag.

Speeding may kill one person or a few more in other vehicles on that day. And that ends the rampage.
Whereas one person passing his virus to others is just starting an endless chain of rampage for a long time.

I'll take no speed limit before releasing a ban on tattoo parlors.

[Alan Klein]

You think it's not out of hand?

Where it becomes out of hand, then those areas are tightened up.  But there's no general country-wide declaration.  Each state and locality is handling it based on local conditions.  America is made up of 50 sovereign states who run their states as they wish.  It's not unlike Europe where each country decides individually how they want to shut down.  Why is that good for Europe but not America?  Why doesn't the EU impose common rules on all it's countries? 

[Alan Klein]

Speeding may kill one person or a few more in other vehicles on that day. And that ends the rampage.
Whereas one person passing his virus to others is just starting an endless chain of rampage for a long time.

I'll take no speed limit before releasing a ban on tattoo parlors.

So the owner of a tattoo parlor who feeds his family with his business is not equal to a restaurant owner who feeds his family with his business?  The tattooist should starve? 

Frankly, I don't have any tattoos, don;t want any,  and can't wait to eat out again.  So I'm on your side.  But how is government rules regarding this fair and equitable?  Additionally, it's a lot safer with one on one in a parlor rather than a bunch pf people roaming around inside a restaurant coughing their food and wine on each other. 

[LesPalenik]

So the owner of a tattoo parlor who feeds his family with his business is not equal to a restaurant owner who feeds his family with his business?  The tattooist should starve? 

Frankly, I don't have any tattoos, don;t want any,  and can't wait to eat out again.  So I'm on your side.  But how is government rules regarding this fair and equitable?  Additionally, it's a lot safer with one on one in a parlor rather than a bunch pf people roaming around inside a restaurant coughing their food and wine on each other.

Getting fast to a hospital or a girlfriend in a need may be essential, whereas body mutilations are non essential.
The tattoo artist could start designing naughty graphics for a stock agency and earn potentially more than hurting alive beings.

[hogloff]

You'd prefer living under a Communist regime as in China?

Nope, but places like South Korea and New Zealand...even Canada has faired much better.

[hogloff]

It's up to the public.  Don't they have no speed limit on the German Autobahn.  What do Germans do there? 

But you raise a valid point.  What do you do when the freedom of one person interferes with the freedom of another in a dangerous way.  Speeding and Covid do have parallels.  But the comparison is do speed limits impose "undue" hardship and dangers on others?  Similarly does mixing it in public to get to work hurt other people or help regarding the virus?  That's a mixed bag.  Plus old people like me are staying home anyway regardless if younger people work or not.Their risky behavior may not affect me unlike speeding if I have to drive regardless.  Obviously, it's a call we have to make and we come down on different sides.  In any case, most people seem to want to get back to normalcy of some kind.  They're doing it in fits and starts.  I think that's going to continue because of the nature of the problem.  I just don't see the economy getting shut down like it was unless it suddenly becomes really out of hand again.

Well it seems like things are shutting down again in the current hot spots after opening up a month ago. All those people that got back to work at bars and restaurants are once again sitting on their bums.

It's also not just old people getting sick and dying...there are more and more young folk in ICU...many will survive with scared lungs that will affect their quality of their shortened life.

[hogloff]

You think it's not out of hand?

You got to be blind if you think everything is under control. Hospitals full again with staff overworked...sort of like it was in NY.