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Author Topic: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS  (Read 87386 times)

Alan Klein

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #1720 on: July 08, 2020, 04:13:39 pm »

Getting fast to a hospital or a girlfriend in a need may be essential, whereas body mutilations are non essential.
The tattoo artist could start designing naughty graphics for a stock agency and earn potentially more than hurting alive beings.
I was comparing tattoos to eating out not to EMS drivers.  Why should a restaurant owner feed his family but government should deny the same for the tattoo parlor owner?  Eat at home.  Or if you're at work, you can brown bag it and take a sandwich that your wife made.  Wait.  I'm being gender biased.  Another government rule.  This is getting too complicated.  Why don't we just let individuals figure this out?  If families can figure out who makes the sandwiches, couldn't we let them figure out who should stay at home or not?  Is government doing any better, really?

Alan Klein

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #1721 on: July 08, 2020, 04:15:31 pm »

Nope, but places like South Korea and New Zealand...even Canada has faired much better.
You're only looking at half the picture, the side you want too.  You're not looking at the people who are out of work and will lose their homes, jobs, and savings.  There are two sides to a coin.

Alan Klein

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #1722 on: July 08, 2020, 04:20:07 pm »

Well it seems like things are shutting down again in the current hot spots after opening up a month ago. All those people that got back to work at bars and restaurants are once again sitting on their bums.

It's also not just old people getting sick and dying...there are more and more young folk in ICU...many will survive with scared lungs that will affect their quality of their shortened life.
Don't you think young people know this?  They need the government to tell them?  Don't you think they can make a reasoned judgment to try to work in spite of the possibility they may catch the virus or stay home?  Does the government care more about them and their families then they do or what their needs are?  People have grown up depending on the government rather then themselves.  That's common in Europe where there's a lot of paternalism.  Governments there have always  told the people what to do. But Americans are individualists, or they use to be anyway.   

LesPalenik

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #1723 on: July 08, 2020, 04:34:15 pm »

I was comparing tattoos to eating out not to EMS drivers.  Why should a restaurant owner feed his family but government should deny the same for the tattoo parlor owner?  Eat at home.  Or if you're at work, you can brown bag it and take a sandwich that your wife made.  Wait.  I'm being gender biased.  Another government rule.  This is getting too complicated.  Why don't we just let individuals figure this out?  If families can figure out who makes the sandwiches, couldn't we let them figure out who should stay at home or not?  Is government doing any better, really?

Because eating a salad is healthier than inflicting damage to the skin, your biggest organ. BTW, does government still give subsidies to tobacco growers?
When it comes to preparing sandwiches, it's definitely more fun to make them together. Especially in a small kitchen.
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Alan Goldhammer

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #1724 on: July 08, 2020, 04:42:17 pm »

I have been posting articles describing the economic hardships.  Here are a few more. You tell me how these people are going to feed their families, pay their mortgages or rent, pay for their car rentals, pay their credit cards debts, school debts, etc.  Why don't we ask them what scares them more: Covid 19 or destitution?

You only have to look in the mirror to understand why this is happening.  You and I are not traveling.  You and I are not going out to dinner.  You and I are not going to the movies or theater.  More office work is being done remotely and the is no need to wear a suit.  Business attire has been changing in the absence of COVID, there is less of a requirement to wear suits which is why major menswear manufacturers were having problems as early as the 2000s.  the bottom line according to one economic newsletter that I read daily is one-third of the population that has significant disposable income is NOT spending.  this will not change until there is a vaccine or some guarantee that if you get COVID-19 you won't automatically end up in the hospital.

I go to some favorite restaurants to pick up dinner and there are zero patrons inside even though they have been open for business for three weeks now.  People are voting to be safe and not take risks in our area.  I still have a lot of friends who insist on having everything delivered.  I go to the store but make sure it is early morning.  I won't go into any store that is crowded and forget the shopping mall.

None of this should come as a surprise to you.
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Alan Klein

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #1725 on: July 08, 2020, 04:50:25 pm »

Because eating a salad is healthier than inflicting damage to the skin, your biggest organ. BTW, does government still give subsidies to tobacco growers?
When it comes to preparing sandwiches, it's definitely more fun to make them together. Especially in a small kitchen.
You missed the point, Les.  It has nothing to do with the guy getting a tattoo.  You're right it doesn't matter if he skips a tattoo.  But it has to do with the owner of the tattoo parlor and his employers who are out of work and can't feed their family.  We're talking about someone's livelihood.  It's this kind of thinking and government restrictions that makes people mad because what you're saying is that the tattooist is not worthy of his keep.  That he doesn't deserve to feed his family.  This is why people are revolting against the government on this issue. Because arbitrary decisions are being made by government that is taking one person's livelihood away.  Yet, another person gets to keep his livelihood.  Meanwhile bankers and the rich are getting billions from the government like they did in 2008.  But the small businessman is told to take his family to a food kitchen if he wants them to eat.

Alan Klein

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #1726 on: July 08, 2020, 05:02:34 pm »

You only have to look in the mirror to understand why this is happening.  You and I are not traveling.  You and I are not going out to dinner.  You and I are not going to the movies or theater.  More office work is being done remotely and the is no need to wear a suit.  Business attire has been changing in the absence of COVID, there is less of a requirement to wear suits which is why major menswear manufacturers were having problems as early as the 2000s.  the bottom line according to one economic newsletter that I read daily is one-third of the population that has significant disposable income is NOT spending.  this will not change until there is a vaccine or some guarantee that if you get COVID-19 you won't automatically end up in the hospital.

I go to some favorite restaurants to pick up dinner and there are zero patrons inside even though they have been open for business for three weeks now.  People are voting to be safe and not take risks in our area.  I still have a lot of friends who insist on having everything delivered.  I go to the store but make sure it is early morning.  I won't go into any store that is crowded and forget the shopping mall.

None of this should come as a surprise to you.
Your  point is well taken.  But what it shows is that we should let the free market decide.  People aren't stupid.  They will operate to their own benefit.  They don't need government to tell them what's best for them and their families.

Instead, government is picking winners and losers.  They giving billions to zombie corporations wasting precious and limited resources.  They close tattoo parlors where there' less chance of getting sick and open restaurants where there's more chance.  Restaurant owners are going broke anyway but maybe tattoo artists will make enough to feed their kids.   If government just left people alone, people will work out the best for themselves.  You and I and other old vulnerable people will stay home, skipping eating out and tattoos. Some younger people will take chances figuring  that being destitute is worse than the chance of dying from the virus even if they were to get sick.  Those that saved enough to live on will stay home.  But let each person decide according to their needs. 

Can anyone argue that government has a handle on this?    They're just making it worse.

LesPalenik

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #1727 on: July 08, 2020, 05:21:03 pm »

You missed the point, Les.  It has nothing to do with the guy getting a tattoo.  You're right it doesn't matter if he skips a tattoo.  But it has to do with the owner of the tattoo parlor and his employers who are out of work and can't feed their family.  We're talking about someone's livelihood.  It's this kind of thinking and government restrictions that makes people mad because what you're saying is that the tattooist is not worthy of his keep.  That he doesn't deserve to feed his family.  This is why people are revolting against the government on this issue. Because arbitrary decisions are being made by government that is taking one person's livelihood away.  Yet, another person gets to keep his livelihood.  Meanwhile bankers and the rich are getting billions from the government like they did in 2008.  But the small businessman is told to take his family to a food kitchen if he wants them to eat.

Alan,

in this case you are missing the point, we definitely see it differently. Supporting businesses like tattoo parlors is stupid, unnecessary and harmful. On the other extreme, prolonging a ban on doctors who are not allowed to see their patients is also stupid, cruel and irresponsible. I agree with you that many stupid government decisions are made by incompetent bureaucrats, who care only for their jobs and perks.
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Alan Klein

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #1728 on: July 08, 2020, 05:46:24 pm »

Alan,

in this case you are missing the point, we definitely see it differently. Supporting businesses like tattoo parlors is stupid, unnecessary and harmful. On the other extreme, prolonging a ban on doctors who are not allowed to see their patients is also stupid, cruel and irresponsible. I agree with you that many stupid government decisions are made by incompetent bureaucrats, who care only for their jobs and perks.
I guess tattoo artists and their customers are just deplorable.

LesPalenik

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #1729 on: July 08, 2020, 05:51:16 pm »

I guess tattoo artists and their customers are just deplorable.

I would never say that.
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Alan Klein

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #1730 on: July 08, 2020, 06:03:53 pm »

I would never say that.
But you said that tattoo artist work is not valuable enough for them to feed their families.  But that a restaurant owner's work is valuable enough to feed his family. I'd say more but there's no politics here.     

hogloff

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #1731 on: July 08, 2020, 06:16:14 pm »

You're only looking at half the picture, the side you want too.  You're not looking at the people who are out of work and will lose their homes, jobs, and savings.  There are two sides to a coin.

I don't hear of people losing their homes or savings. Yes jobs have disappeared...but are on their way back.

Here's a choice for you. Would you rather lose your wife to Covid or you home?
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hogloff

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #1732 on: July 08, 2020, 06:18:35 pm »

Don't you think young people know this?  They need the government to tell them?  Don't you think they can make a reasoned judgment to try to work in spite of the possibility they may catch the virus or stay home?  Does the government care more about them and their families then they do or what their needs are?  People have grown up depending on the government rather then themselves.  That's common in Europe where there's a lot of paternalism.  Governments there have always  told the people what to do. But Americans are individualists, or they use to be anyway.   

And that individualism ( selfish people ) is what got them to the disaster they are in now. People dying all over the place and the economy down the toilet...and not a good prognosis going forward.
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TechTalk

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #1733 on: July 08, 2020, 06:46:53 pm »

The money being given out now is a sugar high.  It goes away.

The money doesn't go away, it circulates throughout the economy. The better the circulation, the healthier the economy. Unless of course, you bury it in the backyard or hide it under your mattress. Most people don't, they either spend it or invest it.

Taxes have to go up  to pay for that debt for people and business.  This reduces purchases, hurting companies and raising unemployment.

The money taken in by the government thru taxes or borrowing though the sale of bonds is not hoarded under a mattress or buried behind the Capitol. The money circulates back into the economy thru government spending. It may be spent on infrastructure project payments to contractors that recirculate the money thru worker salaries and purchase of supplies and equipment or it may go to retirement benefits which are then recirculated into the economy thru purchases for living expenses or it may be spent on thousands of other things which are of more or less benefit to the population as a whole, depending on your priorities and point of view.

I attended public schools, obtained further education from a public library, traveled to them on public roads, enjoyed leisure time in public parks and facilities. Much of it was built during the height of the Great Depression. Our public health system worked to prevent the spread of infectious disease. All of that and more were the result of government spending, paid for by taxes or borrowing. Investment in education and learning has helped to create smarter more productive workers and more creative inventors. Investments in transportation helped workers and goods get to where they needed to go promoting commerce. Investments in public health helped to insure that people were well enough to work and go to school.

All to say, I'm entirely behind the idea that government should be both efficient and effective in spending that promotes conditions in which both individuals and the society in which they live can grow, prosper, and achieve in a healthy sustainable manner. I think you would have a hard time finding many that desire inefficiency, ineffectiveness, or spending that does not benefit the public interest. The problem is that individuals will disagree on the best methods of paying for it all and what the priorities should be for spending. That's why we vote to express our views.

Debt burden is of concern to individuals, businesses, and governments. The over simplified narrative, that taxes remove money from the economy and thereby damages or reduces it, is all too easily sold to voters thru continuous repetition over many years and has been a major factor in the inability to elect a sufficient number of representatives with a sensible balanced view towards tax and spending policies. By sensible and balanced, I mean a willingness to raise enough tax revenue in an equitable fashion to provide for necessary and beneficial investment in our people and their public interests. Having too many representatives who refuse to consider any tax increases of any kind on ideological grounds and are unwilling to cut spending due to political considerations are a major roadblock to debt reduction.

In the 20th Century, government regulation helped to break up monopolies that seek to crush competition and block innovation that threatens their monopoly. And after a long history of boom and bust economic cycles which culminated in the Great Depression, government regulations to reduce fraud and establish guardrails to reduce speculation assisted in a long period of economic growth and relative stability; at least until the 90s when those regulations were chipped away by members of both parties.

I think a balanced viewpoint would see government's role in economic matters, in general or more specifically economic interventions that result from public health issues like the current pandemic, as neither inherently helpful or harmful. It has the capacity to be either one. Viewing the matter thru the narrow lens of any ideology is not helpful in finding a healthy balance. Pragmatic investment, combined with reasoned compassion, and a view toward long term public benefit would be far more helpful in making progress.

* This thread seems to be drifting into political matters. Perhaps discussions like this belong on the other thread.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2020, 07:06:34 pm by TechTalk »
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Alan Klein

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #1734 on: July 08, 2020, 07:08:25 pm »

I don't hear of people losing their homes or savings. Yes jobs have disappeared...but are on their way back.

Here's a choice for you. Would you rather lose your wife to Covid or you home?
They're not on the way back.   Plus, if you're business hasn't done anything for awhile, it could make it impossible to come back.  The longer it goes, the harder will be to come back.  Anyone in business here who'd like to add their thoughts about this would be useful. 

hogloff

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #1735 on: July 08, 2020, 07:13:34 pm »

They're not on the way back.   Plus, if you're business hasn't done anything for awhile, it could make it impossible to come back.  The longer it goes, the harder will be to come back.  Anyone in business here who'd like to add their thoughts about this would be useful.

But restaurants are open here and basically empty. No one feels safe enough to go out and eat. Same with the hotels...almost empty. No one feels comfortable traveling.

Now guess how people would feel if there was no lock down and we saw ten times more cases and deaths. Do you think people would just go out as normal Friday evening to the crowded bars to let out steam...or maybe they'd be locked up at home fearing for their lives.
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LesPalenik

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #1736 on: July 08, 2020, 08:08:28 pm »

But you said that tattoo artist work is not valuable enough for them to feed their families.  But that a restaurant owner's work is valuable enough to feed his family. I'd say more but there's no politics here.   

Personally, I'm not frequenting either of these establishments, I always liked best my own home-made food. As long as the artist does his design on a paper, I'm quite comfortable with it. But if he starts piercing someone's skin and injecting foreign substances into a human body, that is not beneficial in any way. When it leads later to a trouble, innocent taxpayers have to foot the bill for tattoo removals or other treatments. If it was meant as an income for an "artist", there are hundreds of more useful and more effective ways to earn money. Or if the customer needs to impress his party guests he could get a temporary tattoo. For every party a new design.
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LesPalenik

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #1737 on: July 08, 2020, 08:13:44 pm »

And that individualism ( selfish people ) is what got them to the disaster they are in now. People dying all over the place and the economy down the toilet...and not a good prognosis going forward.

Is there any information or clues why so many are dying now in Texas, Florida and California? Surely not from the cold temperatures.
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LesPalenik

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #1738 on: July 08, 2020, 08:30:08 pm »

Many swines in Germany are ready to relocate into the pig heaven, but due to closures of slaughterhouses nobody is there to kill them, so they are left hanging.



Quote
Everything has been standing still at the headquarters of Germany's largest pig slaughterhouse for over two weeks. At the Tönnies plant in Rheda-Wiedenbrück, between 12 and 14 percent of German pigs are actually slaughtered, according to the interest group of pig keepers in Germany (ISN). However, the location will remain largely closed until at least July 17, because numerous employees had contracted the corona virus.

https://www.spiegel.de/wissenschaft/mensch/schweine-im-toennies-skandal-bestellt-aber-nicht-abgeholt-a-5cca3be3-4669-4bf1-b31a-6029a755573e
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Paulo Bizarro

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #1739 on: July 09, 2020, 04:00:56 am »

Paulo,  Why don't you include graphs as well that show unemployment rates and how many people aren't making money and able to feed their families?  Don't you think those are important facts as well?  Paulo,  Why don't you include graphs as well that show unemployment rates and how many people aren't making money and able to feed their families?  Don't you think those are important facts as well?

Of course they are important. Everything is connected. But we are discussing the science on this thread. Portugal will be hit by the most serious economic crisis since 1928, this year the estimate of to have a deficit of ~10%. Many countries are being affected. I am sure there are many graphs available for economic indicators, and they will be all bad.
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