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Author Topic: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS  (Read 86802 times)

Alan Klein

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #1260 on: June 05, 2020, 09:51:21 am »

Once again, if you want to beat a dead horse and preach to the choir, please pack up your metaphors in your old kit bag and take a hike over to the "playpen" thread.
Your statement as are most statements here are political in nature.  I'm responding to their political nature similarly.  You can't cut the baby in half.

RSL

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #1261 on: June 05, 2020, 10:36:10 am »

Jeremy, time for some more removals.
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Alan Goldhammer

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #1262 on: June 05, 2020, 10:40:02 am »

I will weigh in on the retracted studies.  I read both of them when they were published and the senior author, Mandeep Mehra, is a head of medicine in a Harvard University teaching hospital.  He was not the one at fault here but it was the person who "claimed" to have this large database of patient information which was likely untrue.  When the first murmurings came out that something looked wrong with the study, Dr. Mehra contacted the database owner and requested a third party audit of the data file.  This is the point where things broke down, there is no alleged conspiracy here but a lack of due diligence on the part of the Harvard investigators, who went into the study "....We all entered this collaboration to contribute in good faith and at a time of great need during the COVID-19 pandemic. We deeply apologise to you, the editors, and the journal readership for any embarrassment or inconvenience that this may have caused..."

Observational studies can be done quite well.  When I was working at PhRMA, I was the project manager on a very large project designed to do just that.  I presented this to the PhRMA Board (CEOs of major pharmaceutical companies) and got the first $20 million to get it started.  I was on the Board of the project for my final two years at PhRMA prior to retiring.  This project has morphed into a huge international effort involving researchers from many countries under the auspices of The Observational Health Data Sciences and Informatics.  They are setting up a large study on ALL therapeutics that have been used to date in the treatment of COVID-19 and have access to many more data sets than were in the retracted paper.  I don't know what the timing of this will be but once it is up and running data can be acquired and analyzed very quickly as the group has many newly developed tools at their disposal.

One of the difficulties we face right now is that there are many substandard preprints of papers that are being posted.  I review probably 200 papers a day and read maybe 10-20% depending on my tolerance.  Some of them are very good but my assessment is that 70-80% will never be published.  Look at what happened with the first HCQ paper that came out from the Marseilles group two months ago.  It was junk and the only reason it was published was the senior author is the editor of the journal it was published in.  Nobody really believed that study was correct.  I am fond of my newly coined acronym which my newsletter readers are well acquainted with, "TIWWDCT", This Is Why We Do Clinical Trials. 

Everyone is hungry for information about vaccine and pharmaceutical development.  One should not put much faith in a reported trial of 20-40 patients which is not controlled.  The treatment of COVID-19 is proceeding faster than I imagined as clinicians are quickly learning what does and does not work.  If one is hospitalized today (and I don't wish this on anybody!), the chances of recovery are much better than two months ago.

I don't want to get into a fight with anyone about the utility of any drug or herbal treatment for COVID-19.  I do a daily newsletter that goes into this stuff in great detail.  If you wish to get the newsletter send me a PM and I will add you to the list.  If you just want to see what type of information I am distilling, all the newsletters are archived HERE  If you do visit you can find two good cookie recipes to help get you through the pandemic.

I'm happy to respond to individual questions either openly here or via PM.
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Alan Klein

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #1263 on: June 05, 2020, 10:47:42 am »

The problem, Alan,  is questionable studies confuse the public on what they should do and officials who have to make policy. 

Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #1264 on: June 05, 2020, 11:08:58 am »

The problem, Alan,  is questionable studies confuse the public on what they should do and officials who have to make policy.

Alan, I don't know about the general public, but I think they get more confused by the pulp they read on social media, and what some politicians want them to react to.

But policymakers/officials who fulfill their obligations to the general public are not satisfied with a single publication that fits their agenda. They will seek the help of several experts (with sometimes opposing views) from different fields of expertise. They will listen carefully and ask questions to see if they understand what is being said. They then draw their conclusions based on knowledge and policy objectives and make considerations that maximise the result.
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== If you do what you did, you'll get what you got. ==

dreed

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #1265 on: June 05, 2020, 11:42:33 am »

This is the point where things broke down, there is no alleged conspiracy here but a lack of due diligence on the part of the Harvard investigators, who went into the study
[/quote]

When face with the choice of conspiracy theory or someone simply screwed up, go with the screw up. Conspiracy theories require a lot of effort to get right. Screwing up is much easier.
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Alan Klein

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #1266 on: June 05, 2020, 11:49:14 am »

Alan, I don't know about the general public, but I think they get more confused by the pulp they read on social media, and what some politicians want them to react to.

But policymakers/officials who fulfill their obligations to the general public are not satisfied with a single publication that fits their agenda. They will seek the help of several experts (with sometimes opposing views) from different fields of expertise. They will listen carefully and ask questions to see if they understand what is being said. They then draw their conclusions based on knowledge and policy objectives and make considerations that maximise the result.
GIGO.

Bart_van_der_Wolf

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #1267 on: June 05, 2020, 12:16:00 pm »

GIGO.

Correct, unless you are talking about the recycling industry. But that's for another thread.
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== If you do what you did, you'll get what you got. ==

Robert Roaldi

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #1268 on: June 05, 2020, 12:27:59 pm »

This whole thread is deficient because you can't discuss politics. 

This is incorrect. Please stop beating the horse, it's dead.
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Robert Roaldi

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #1269 on: June 05, 2020, 12:38:27 pm »

The problem, Alan,  is questionable studies confuse the public on what they should do and officials who have to make policy.

I would argue that the general public is unqualified to read highly technical articles in specialized scientific journals. Amateur interpretations of their meaning or validity are risky at best. If a scientist publishes something iffy, fear not, there will soon be line-ups of others in the same field who will say so.

Freaking out over what some every paper says or not is silly. It takes years for the accumulated knowledge to be widely distributed, digested, tested.

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Alan Goldhammer

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #1270 on: June 05, 2020, 12:59:59 pm »

This is the point where things broke down, there is no alleged conspiracy here but a lack of due diligence on the part of the Harvard investigators, who went into the study
Correct and within a week or so, the papers were retracted.  I am sure that Dr. Mehra's reputation is going to take a significant hit.
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Jeremy Roussak

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #1271 on: June 05, 2020, 01:57:46 pm »

This whole thread is deficient because you can't discuss politics.

That's the way it is, and that's the way it will stay; and it's not "deficient" in consequence. If you want to discuss* politics, do it elsewhere, or suffer the consequences.

Jeremy

* I use the word in its loosest possible sense, of course
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Alan Klein

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #1272 on: June 05, 2020, 02:09:14 pm »

I would argue that the general public is unqualified to read highly technical articles in specialized scientific journals. Amateur interpretations of their meaning or validity are risky at best. If a scientist publishes something iffy, fear not, there will soon be line-ups of others in the same field who will say so.

Freaking out over what some every paper says or not is silly. It takes years for the accumulated knowledge to be widely distributed, digested, tested.


Come on Bob.  You know that it's the media that takes the ball and runs with it. The public listens to the media. They're the ones who advise the public.  Frankly, I doubt if the media reads it.  They all just repeat everything someone else says anyway.  So wrong or misinterpreted "science" gets repeated.  The public suffer. Policy makers are ignorant as well.  We all just muddle along.

Alan Klein

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #1273 on: June 05, 2020, 02:11:11 pm »

Correct and within a week or so, the papers were retracted.  I am sure that Dr. Mehra's reputation is going to take a significant hit.
Why wasn't the due diligence done before publishing?  Why did they wait until it was published and then just a week later retract it?  Something smells fishy.

faberryman

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #1274 on: June 05, 2020, 02:25:07 pm »

Why wasn't the due diligence done before publishing?  Why did they wait until it was published and then just a week later retract it?  Something smells fishy.

Okay, I'll bite. Why did they wait until it was published and then just a week later retract it?
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Alan Goldhammer

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #1275 on: June 05, 2020, 03:06:42 pm »

Why wasn't the due diligence done before publishing?  Why did they wait until it was published and then just a week later retract it?  Something smells fishy.
You will have to ask those involved. 
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faberryman

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #1276 on: June 05, 2020, 03:44:51 pm »

If you don't like the Lancet article, here's another one whose results are the same which came out today:

https://www.statnews.com/2020/06/05/hydroxychloroquine-had-no-benefit-for-hospitalized-covid-19-patients-possibly-closing-door-to-use-of-drug/

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Alan Goldhammer

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #1277 on: June 05, 2020, 04:04:15 pm »

If you don't like the Lancet article, here's another one whose results are the same which came out today:

https://www.statnews.com/2020/06/05/hydroxychloroquine-had-no-benefit-for-hospitalized-covid-19-patients-possibly-closing-door-to-use-of-drug/
Yes, this pretty much ends the conjecture.  This was a very large trial and the Data Safety Monitoring Board found it necessary to communicate preliminary results because of clinical importance.  The full press statement is here: https://www.recoverytrial.net/files/hcq-recovery-statement-050620-final-002.pdf and it's pretty darn clear.  Of course this won't satisfy all of the hydroxycholorquine fans who may argue that the right level of zinc or azithromycin wasn't used.
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Alan Klein

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #1278 on: June 05, 2020, 04:24:19 pm »

Yes, this pretty much ends the conjecture.  This was a very large trial and the Data Safety Monitoring Board found it necessary to communicate preliminary results because of clinical importance.  The full press statement is here: https://www.recoverytrial.net/files/hcq-recovery-statement-050620-final-002.pdf and it's pretty darn clear.  Of course this won't satisfy all of the hydroxycholorquine fans who may argue that the right level of zinc or azithromycin wasn't used.
The original news reports for the other reports that were pulled indicated that it was also dangerous causing more heart issues.  Does this new report conclude the same heart issues?

Alan Goldhammer

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Re: COVID-19 | science, damage limitation, NO POLITICS
« Reply #1279 on: June 05, 2020, 04:26:44 pm »

The original news reports for the other reports that were pulled indicated that it was also dangerous causing more heart issues.  Does this new report conclude the same heart issues?
The heart issues associated with HCQ are well known and totally unrelated to whether one has COVID-19 or not.  There have been other reputable studies published showing increased mortality from heart problems when on HCQ, including a large study from the group that I am associated with.
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