COVID-19 updates

[armand]

Heres my problem with that.  The hospitals are out of supplies even BEFORE the bulk of the covid 19 cases  has hit them.  They were under prepared for even the flu season.  They deserve a big part of the blame if we are playing the blame game.

...

What I said before is this:
- they are buying only for a short window ahead in order to keep their finances in check
- no single hospital will buy a lot in advance without some coordination from a centralized center, that's why most countries have disaster management control centers. You need a global picture to see where the wind is blowing.
- when the global center failed them and it was clear it will be bad, tough luck, everybody in the world is buying now, the demand far outstrips the supply.
- that's where the national emergency supply comes in play; oh, wait ...

Should the hospitals live with such a short supply? Of course not, but all are and that's a problem in itself to be addressed on another day.
FYI, it's not my industry, I just work there.

My point is that we can't just say...This Adminsitration screwed this up.  They missed a lot to be sure but I'm not confident any other adminsitration would have done better.  There is a desire to point a finger at someone and way, its your fault.  Even more so in an election year.  Its not helping.

I'm trying to move on but a failure it remains. Maybe another administration would have done as bad or worse, it's possible, but that's no consolation.

[Craig Lamson]

What I said before is this:
- they are buying only for a short window ahead in order to keep their finances in check
- no single hospital will buy a lot in advance without some coordination from a centralized center, that's why most countries have disaster management control centers. You need a global picture to see where the wind is blowing.

So you are telling me that the hospital system is NOT in contact with say, the CDC?  Or you are and you failed to listen?
 

- when the global center failed them and it was clear it will be bad, tough luck, everybody in the world is buying now, the demand far outstrips the supply.
- that's where the national emergency supply comes in play; oh, wait ...
Should the hospitals live with such a short supply? Of course not, but all are and that's a problem in itself to be addressed on another day. 

There WAS global warning, at least as soon as China started reporting.  Really what more do you want?  Oh wait...never mind.

Emergency supply?  You mean the one the hospital system shound have had to supply themselves? Far easier to just blame the administration in power I guess.

FYI, it's not my industry, I just work there.

Dude, its your industry....

[Manoli]

One of the reasons that the government and hospitals weren't prepared is that this is a classic "black swan" event and you simply can't be prepared for black swans.

That may be part of it you can't but the issue here is not just how the government 'screwed it up' but also the attitude, and misinformation, of the 'many' in both the UK and US. As long as it was south of the English Channel and acroos the Atlantic. It was 'them' not 'us'.

That NEJM perspective says a ton.
https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMp2005755?query=featured_home%23article_introduction

The lack of government action in the second week of March was also completely out of step with almost all other European countries.  The U.K. chief science advisor’s statement, repeated in interviews, that the way out of this epidemic was to get to 60% or more of the population recovered from infection and thus approach “herd immunity” did not provide reassurance. An infectious disease modeler at Harvard, originally from the United Kingdom, initially assumed that this proposal was meant as satire ...

And dissect, as we may, the recent history - did anyone notice the speed at which the Chinese built those field hospitals ?

[Martin Kristiansen]

So you are telling me that the hospital system is NOT in contact with say, the CDC?  Or you are and you failed to listen?
 
There WAS global warning, at least as soon as China started reporting.  Really what more do you want?  Oh wait...never mind.

Emergency supply?  You mean the one the hospital system shound have had to supply themselves? Far easier to just blame the administration in power I guess.

Dude, its your industry....

I don’t understand any of this. I thought you all wanted free market capitalism running the health care and no NHS involved. In fact I have read pages of that on this very forum and thought well perhaps that’s a thing. I’m a photographer and know jack didly about NHS vs private health care. What do I know.

So you have private health care and it’s run on capitalistic principles is it not? Do have that that wrong? I have never been to a health care facility of any kind in the US so perhaps that is wrong on my part. Anyway, why would you expect the privately owned hospitals to plan for something like this? It may not be profitable to supply so may ICU beds. They take care of people who are sick and those people pay. They haven’t taken a pledge to solve the problems of the world. They are a business. It’s capitalism. I don’t see why you would think a system like that owes anyone anything. If it was a government run, publicly funded national health system I understand that you could have an expectation that you had paid for something and now it must deliver. My local camera store will sell me a camera if they have a camera. If they are all sold out and I need a camera that’s my problem.

Watch all the rich folks buying up there own ventilators and stuff. They can afford it. Not enough to go around and a bit selfish but they can afford it and that’s the system. You think Zuckerberg doesn’t have one all good to go? You pays your money and you takes your chances. 

[armand]

So you are telling me that the hospital system is NOT in contact with say, the CDC?  Or you are and you failed to listen?
 
There WAS global warning, at least as soon as China started reporting.  Really what more do you want?  Oh wait...never mind.

Emergency supply?  You mean the one the hospital system shound have had to supply themselves? Far easier to just blame the administration in power I guess.

Dude, its your industry....

I don't think you are here to get answers but to displace the blame. 
It appears you either don't understand how a national emergency response works or you just have an agenda.

CDC had an epidemics emergency center, but guess what, this administration dissolved it. Fauci said it would have been better to have it, and he is a nice person.

But CDC could have told them, right? Well, when one of their members said this will be bad the Trump administration jumped like the vultures. https://www.statnews.com/2020/02/25/cdc-expects-community-spread-of-coronavirus-as-top-official-warns-disruptions-could-be-severe/
The cynical would say it's because  because the stocks fell and it wasn't when they planned; few nice words to get the stocks up again and who had to make the sales made them, then suddenly the virus will not go in April.

Because Trump said that, despite you calling me a liar. Here is some reading for you:
https://www.factcheck.org/2020/02/will-the-new-coronavirus-go-away-in-april/
And if you are too lazy to go through it, I'll make it even easier.:

Trump, Feb. 10: Now, the virus that we’re talking about having to do — you know, a lot of people think that goes away in April with the heat — as the heat comes in. Typically, that will go away in April. We’re in great shape though. We have 12 cases — 11 cases, and many of them are in good shape now. https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefings-statements/remarks-president-trump-white-house-business-session-nations-governors/

Trump, Feb. 10: “And by the way, the virus. … It looks like by April, you know in theory, when it gets a little warmer, it miraculously goes away — I hope that’s true. But we’re doing great in our country. China, I spoke with President Xi, and they’re working very, very hard. And I think it’s going to all work out fine. Rough stuff, I tell you, rough, rough stuff. But I think it’s going to work out good. We only have 11 cases, and they’re all getting better. Go to 31.30: https://www.c-span.org/video/?468493-1/president-trump-holds-rally-manchester-hampshire&start=1882

I'm waiting to see how you will say he still didn't say it, or saying he's not sure makes it not count. And this is just a small piece.


But no, now it's the medical industry (which apparently is mine, the same as RV industry is yours) fault that they listened to Trump when he said it's ok, no worries.
As I wrote for whoever had eyes to read it. The epidemics it's not Trump's fault. The fact that the lost all the time trying to prove it's not his fault and not doing what he should have done, it's definitely his to own. And the democrats are guilty into pressuring him by trying to gain political gain.

[armand]

I don’t understand any of this. I thought you all wanted free market capitalism running the health care and no NHS involved. In fact I have read pages of that on this very forum and thought well perhaps that’s a thing. I’m a photographer and know jack didly about NHS vs private health care. What do I know.

So you have private health care and it’s run on capitalistic principles is it not? Do have that that wrong? I have never been to a health care facility of any kind in the US so perhaps that is wrong on my part. Anyway, why would you expect the privately owned hospitals to plan for something like this? It may not be profitable to supply so may ICU beds. They take care of people who are sick and those people pay. They haven’t taken a pledge to solve the problems of the world. They are a business. It’s capitalism. I don’t see why you would think a system like that owes anyone anything. If it was a government run, publicly funded national health system I understand that you could have an expectation that you had paid for something and now it must deliver. My local camera store will sell me a camera if they have a camera. If they are all sold out and I need a camera that’s my problem.

Watch all the rich folks buying up there own ventilators and stuff. They can afford it. Not enough to go around and a bit selfish but they can afford it and that’s the system. You think Zuckerberg doesn’t have one all good to go? You pays your money and you takes your chances.

Good points.


There are widespread issues with the health industry and the daily shortages but this is not entirely on them.
Luckily my hospital still has some supplies, we have been asked to ration it in preparation of the flood because the reserve won't accommodate for that and it's hard to find something to buy now. We would have had enough for business as usual. Many smaller hospitals or who got hit earlier are not so lucky. The system is screwed up, many hospitals have very little financial reserve and occasionally operate at a loss, so you can't really expect them to buy stuff in bulk and keep it just in case. They will go bankrupt, this is the market. The bigger systems have some reserve on essentials but that can only go so much.

[Craig Lamson]

I don’t understand any of this. I thought you all wanted free market capitalism running the health care and no NHS involved. In fact I have read pages of that on this very forum and thought well perhaps that’s a thing. I’m a photographer and know jack didly about NHS vs private health care. What do I know.

So you have private health care and it’s run on capitalistic principles is it not? Do have that that wrong? I have never been to a health care facility of any kind in the US so perhaps that is wrong on my part. Anyway, why would you expect the privately owned hospitals to plan for something like this? It may not be profitable to supply so may ICU beds. They take care of people who are sick and those people pay. They haven’t taken a pledge to solve the problems of the world. They are a business. It’s capitalism. I don’t see why you would think a system like that owes anyone anything. If it was a government run, publicly funded national health system I understand that you could have an expectation that you had paid for something and now it must deliver. My local camera store will sell me a camera if they have a camera. If they are all sold out and I need a camera that’s my problem.

Watch all the rich folks buying up there own ventilators and stuff. They can afford it. Not enough to go around and a bit selfish but they can afford it and that’s the system. You think Zuckerberg doesn’t have one all good to go? You pays your money and you takes your chances.

As a sucessful photographer would you trust your business to a camera store or would you have the redundancy to keep working even if some of your equipment fails?  Would your customer be happy or hire you again if your only camera failed and you hade to cancel a once in a lifetime shoot because you could not buy replacement?

Part of being a sucessful business is looking forward to see what trends and problems will effect your business and prepare for them.  Having the right products and at the right time lets you survive.  If you expect a certain number of buyers you stock up accordingly.  We are not talking ICU beds altho those are important right now.  We are talking about the most basic of supplies and yes, thats the responsibility of the hospital to provide. IN a pandemic it gets iffy but they have failed even before it gets started.  They choose to be just in time, and now its hurting so they blame the government.  Thats the point.  Its not so much that they are without, but rather they want to blame someone else. 

If I had a choice of a hospital in the future between one ran out of supplies before a crisis and one who was more prepared I know which one would get my business going forward, give I survived the original crisis. 

I suspect a government run program might far worse.  They would have no competition and no reason to try nad get better. Where else are you going to go?

[Manoli]

Italy: another 793 deaths today alone.

The country’s experience shows that steps to isolate the coronavirus and limit people’s movement need to be put in place early, with absolute clarity, then strictly enforced.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/21/world/europe/italy-coronavirus-center-lessons.html?referringSource=articleShare

[Martin Kristiansen]

Italy: another 793 deaths today alone.

The country’s experience shows that steps to isolate the coronavirus and limit people’s movement need to be put in place early, with absolute clarity, then strictly enforced.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/21/world/europe/italy-coronavirus-center-lessons.html?referringSource=articleShare

That is terrifying.

[armand]

I don’t understand any of this. I thought you all wanted free market capitalism running the health care and no NHS involved. In fact I have read pages of that on this very forum and thought well perhaps that’s a thing. I’m a photographer and know jack didly about NHS vs private health care. What do I know.

So you have private health care and it’s run on capitalistic principles is it not? Do have that that wrong? I have never been to a health care facility of any kind in the US so perhaps that is wrong on my part. Anyway, why would you expect the privately owned hospitals to plan for something like this? It may not be profitable to supply so may ICU beds. They take care of people who are sick and those people pay. They haven’t taken a pledge to solve the problems of the world. They are a business. It’s capitalism. I don’t see why you would think a system like that owes anyone anything. If it was a government run, publicly funded national health system I understand that you could have an expectation that you had paid for something and now it must deliver. My local camera store will sell me a camera if they have a camera. If they are all sold out and I need a camera that’s my problem.

Watch all the rich folks buying up there own ventilators and stuff. They can afford it. Not enough to go around and a bit selfish but they can afford it and that’s the system. You think Zuckerberg doesn’t have one all good to go? You pays your money and you takes your chances.

https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2020/03/21/exclusive-rich-russians-are-hoarding-ventilators-to-protect-themselves-against-the-coronavirus-a69703

[faberryman]

If I had a choice of a hospital in the future between one ran out of supplies before a crisis and one who was more prepared I know which one would get my business going forward, give I survived the original crisis.

Provided it was in network, I presume.

[Craig Lamson]

I don't think you are here to get answers but to displace the blame. 
It appears you either don't understand how a national emergency response works or you just have an agenda.

CDC had an epidemics emergency center, but guess what, this administration dissolved it. Fauci said it would have been better to have it, and he is a nice person.

So your industry is so full of incompetents that they need to hear something from the President before they act?  Ok, got it, you guys suck.

So the CDC posted zero in all of this to hospitals?  Really?  Ok, got.

But CDC could have told them, right? Well, when one of their members said this will be bad the Trump administration jumped like the vultures. https://www.statnews.com/2020/02/25/cdc-expects-community-spread-of-coronavirus-as-top-official-warns-disruptions-could-be-severe/

Did you even read the article you linked, becasue it says nothing you said it did. the information was put out, it was not dismissed nor was it trashed.  Wanna try again?  Did the Hospitial industry respond or were they waiting for Trump to tell them to do something?  Inquiring minds want to know.

The cynical would say it's because  because the stocks fell and it wasn't when they planned; few nice words to get the stocks up again and who had to make the sales made them, then suddenly the virus will not go in April.
Because Trump said that, despite you calling me a liar. Here is some reading for you:
https://www.factcheck.org/2020/02/will-the-new-coronavirus-go-away-in-april/
And if you are too lazy to go through it, I'll make it even easier.:

Trump, Feb. 10: Now, the virus that we’re talking about having to do — you know, a lot of people think that goes away in April with the heat — as the heat comes in. Typically, that will go away in April. We’re in great shape though. We have 12 cases — 11 cases, and many of them are in good shape now. https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefings-statements/remarks-president-trump-white-house-business-session-nations-governors/

Trump, Feb. 10: “And by the way, the virus. … It looks like by April, you know in theory, when it gets a little warmer, it miraculously goes away — I hope that’s true. But we’re doing great in our country. China, I spoke with President Xi, and they’re working very, very hard. And I think it’s going to all work out fine. Rough stuff, I tell you, rough, rough stuff. But I think it’s going to work out good. We only have 11 cases, and they’re all getting better. Go to 31.30: https://www.c-span.org/video/?468493-1/president-trump-holds-rally-manchester-hampshire&start=1882

I'm waiting to see how you will say he still didn't say it, or saying he's not sure makes it not count. And this is just a small piece.

Are you unable to read or is your vison just clouded by Trump hate?  Saying he's not sure does count.  Unless you are blind.  I guess hope is a bad thing right? 

The key phrases;
Now, the virus that we’re talking about having to do — you know, a lot of people think that goes away in April with the heat — as the heat comes in.

And by the way, the virus. … It looks like by April, you know in theory, when it gets a little warmer, it miraculously goes away — I hope that’s true.

But no, now it's the medical industry (which apparently is mine, the same as RV industry is yours) fault that they listened to Trump when he said it's ok, no worries.
As I wrote for whoever had eyes to read it. The epidemics it's not Trump's fault. The fact that the lost all the time trying to prove it's not his fault and not doing what he should have done, it's definitely his to own. And the democrats are guilty into pressuring him by trying to gain political gain.

So your industry is so full of incompetents that they need to hear something from the President before they act?  Ok, got it, you guys suck at this.

Trying to prove its not his fault?  Are you serious?  Wow. Its amazing what you can read into or hear ito something when you are in full TDS.

I just read a nice article about  timeline of the testing problems and who caused them.  It was not Trump trying to prove "this was not his fault". It was the FDA and the CDC and it took Trump to crush the regs that caused the problems. It was the 'apolitical" groups defending turf who screwed this up.  Now if you want to fault Trump for not blowing up the regs for the CD and FDA prior to the event, have at it. 

The hospital industry of which you are a part needs to take their blame. I know you dont want to hear that but thats life.

BTW, how loud was your voice to your superiors and upper management advocating for big changes and preparations for the storm that was coming? It was public knowlege by early knowlege.  Or were you waiting for Trump?

[elliot_n]

Italy: another 793 deaths today alone.

The UK is two weeks behind Italy. Uncanny

[Craig Lamson]

Provided it was in network, I presume.

Not bound by networks.

[Martin Kristiansen]

As a sucessful photographer would you trust your business to a camera store or would you have the redundancy to keep working even if some of your equipment fails?  Would your customer be happy or hire you again if your only camera failed and you hade to cancel a once in a lifetime shoot because you could not buy replacement?

Part of being a sucessful business is looking forward to see what trends and problems will effect your business and prepare for them.  Having the right products and at the right time lets you survive.  If you expect a certain number of buyers you stock up accordingly.  We are not talking ICU beds altho those are important right now.  We are talking about the most basic of supplies and yes, thats the responsibility of the hospital to provide. IN a pandemic it gets iffy but they have failed even before it gets started.  They choose to be just in time, and now its hurting so they blame the government.  Thats the point.  Its not so much that they are without, but rather they want to blame someone else. 

If I had a choice of a hospital in the future between one ran out of supplies before a crisis and one who was more prepared I know which one would get my business going forward, give I survived the original crisis. 

I suspect a government run program might far worse.  They would have no competition and no reason to try nad get better. Where else are you going to go?

That is a crap analogy but let’s give it a try anyway. Let’s ay there are two camera stores. One has tons of equipment in case someone needs tons of equipment. They carry a lot of stock but it drives up prices for obvious reason. The other store has just a few cameras but it’s a lot cheaper  because they aren’t financing tons of equipment that in 100 years has never been needed. Guess what, I buy the cheaper one.

So let’s look at something closer to the real life shall we. There are two hospitals. One has an entire floor of state of the art ICU units for in case there is a pandemic. The other has the general stuff that is used year after year. Guess which one will be able to offer a cheaper service? Guess which one will eat the other ones lunch? Guess which one will be open for business if and when a pandemic strikes? 

[JoeKitchen]

I have a couple plumbing issues I need to fix in my house and went to Home Depot in Montogomery County, the epi-center in PA right now.  I figured I get this done before they were forced to close.  I was expecting a small crowd; 3/4 of the parking lot was full.  Most people inside were doing leisure shopping.  This is going to get bad. 

[Martin Kristiansen]

I have a couple plumbing issues I need to fix in my house and went to Home Depot in Montogomery County, the epi-center in PA right now.  I figured I get this done before they were forced to close.  I was expecting a small crowd; 3/4 of the parking lot was full.  Most people inside were doing leisure shopping.  This is going to get bad.

I have a nasty feeling in the pit of my stomach that you are right.

[BJL]

This discussion of the situation in Italy (where I have  many nervous and frustrated friends and relatives) is not a simple partisan left vs right issue. I hope we can focus on working out where to go from here, and on the basis of scientific and economic realities, not simplistic, rigid allegiances to politicians, parties, or doctrines.
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/21/world/europe/italy-coronavirus-center-lessons.html

[Craig Lamson]

That is a crap analogy but let’s give it a try anyway. Let’s ay there are two camera stores. One has tons of equipment in case someone needs tons of equipment. They carry a lot of stock but it drives up prices for obvious reason. The other store has just a few cameras but it’s a lot cheaper  because they aren’t financing tons of equipment that in 100 years has never been needed. Guess what, I buy the cheaper one.

So let’s look at something closer to the real life shall we. There are two hospitals. One has an entire floor of state of the art ICU units for in case there is a pandemic. The other has the general stuff that is used year after year. Guess which one will be able to offer a cheaper service? Guess which one will eat the other ones lunch? Guess which one will be open for business if and when a pandemic strikes?

No it was the perfect analogy, but lets look at your counter. You are only gonna buy your camera or whatever at the chaeper store if they actually have a camera to sell you since they keep very little stock. And if they dont and you need the camera you are gonna shop the other tore, becuse they have what you need at the time, price be danmed.  Because you need to complete the assigment or lose the client.

Now the hospitals.  I can't think of any hospitals without ICU's ( but perhaps ther are some) so thats a pretty bad comparison.  But lets take back the level where this started...masks and proper protective care.  If your cheap hospital is not able to keep basic supplies on hand, word will get around.  Peoples lives are at stake and I doubt they will choose the inferior hospital that can't  even protects patients and workers with protective gear. Their very lives are at stake..no matter what the cost.

[Alan Klein]

I don’t understand any of this. I thought you all wanted free market capitalism running the health care and no NHS involved. In fact I have read pages of that on this very forum and thought well perhaps that’s a thing. I’m a photographer and know jack didly about NHS vs private health care. What do I know.

So you have private health care and it’s run on capitalistic principles is it not? Do have that that wrong? I have never been to a health care facility of any kind in the US so perhaps that is wrong on my part. Anyway, why would you expect the privately owned hospitals to plan for something like this? It may not be profitable to supply so may ICU beds. They take care of people who are sick and those people pay. They haven’t taken a pledge to solve the problems of the world. They are a business. It’s capitalism. I don’t see why you would think a system like that owes anyone anything. If it was a government run, publicly funded national health system I understand that you could have an expectation that you had paid for something and now it must deliver. My local camera store will sell me a camera if they have a camera. If they are all sold out and I need a camera that’s my problem.

Watch all the rich folks buying up there own ventilators and stuff. They can afford it. Not enough to go around and a bit selfish but they can afford it and that’s the system. You think Zuckerberg doesn’t have one all good to go? You pays your money and you takes your chances. 

Martin, I'm a New Yorker.  There's plenty of socialized medicine there and in the US.  We have Medicare for the elderly like me and my wife that services all 50 states.  Then there's 50 state health programs like Medicaid.  In NYC, the government runs The New York City Health and Hospitals Corporation including 11 hospitals.  Why didn't the State of New York and the City of New York plan for this emergency?  They're blaming it on Trump because the news media doesn;t like him.  America is made up of 50 states.  The states also must take responsibility, or should, for their residents own welfare.  States run their state and local police departments, highway construction, NAtional Guard and Reserve Armed FOrces, mental health facilities, jails, etc.  NYS budget is $175 billion and NYC is around $80 billion per year. It's the State's responsibility to take care of thier residents.  Sure the Federal government can be helpful in providing coordination and research through the CDC.  That's up to Congress and the president.  But the state cannot shirk their duty and blame Washington DC  for their own lack of preparation.  NYS is a big rich state.  It spends 70 billion dollars on public health care.  Why didn't they store $50 million, less than 1/10 of 1%, in spare medical equipment for this emergency?  It's just convenient to blame Trump and the media doesn;t hold NYC and NYS government's feet to the fire.

Here's info: The New York City Health and Hospitals Corporation (HHC) is a $6.7 billion integrated healthcare delivery system with its own 400,000-member health plan, MetroPlus. As the nation's largest municipal healthcare organization, HHC serves 1.3 million New Yorkers every year, and more than 475,000 of them are uninsured. HHC provides medical, mental health, and substance abuse services through its 11 acute care hospitals, all of which are Designated AIDS Centers; four skilled nursing facilities; six large diagnostic and treatment centers; and more than 70 community-based clinics. HHC Health and Home Care also provides in-home services to persons living in New York.