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Author Topic: Incursions into Syria  (Read 26462 times)

Chris Kern

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Re: Incursions into Syria
« Reply #100 on: October 16, 2019, 06:31:55 pm »

Supreme Court judges can be impeached and removed from office.  Regarding removal of presidents, it was defined very narrowly: high crimes and misdemeanors.  The Constitution reserved ending of presidential terms at election time.

The impeachment and removal provisions of the U.S. Constitution apply to "all civil officers" of the federal government.  The constitutional standards for impeachment and removal are the same in all cases.

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The President, Vice President and all civil officers of the United States, shall be removed from office on impeachment for, and conviction of, treason, bribery, or other high crimes and misdemeanors.
— Article II, §4

High crimes and misdemeanors is a common law term that has been used in Anglo-American impeachments since the 14th Century.  Its meaning might best be summarized as "abuse of power" or, (perhaps exclusively) in the American constitutional context, "behavior inconsistent with the defendant's oath of office."

Impeachment is a political proceeding, not a criminal one.  It does not require a criminal violation, but if a criminal law has been violated, the impeached civil official may be prosecuted.

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Judgment in cases of impeachment shall not extend further than to removal from office, and disqualification to hold and enjoy any office of honor, trust or profit under the United States: but the party convicted shall nevertheless be liable and subject to indictment, trial, judgment and punishment, according to law.
— Article I, §3

With respect to nationally-elected officials with fixed terms—i.e., the president and vice president—impeachment and removal from office explicitly are intended to end the office-holder's tenure before "election time."

John Camp

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Re: Incursions into Syria
« Reply #101 on: October 16, 2019, 07:55:31 pm »

I appreciate your honesty.  Thank you. 

Sure politicians are cynical and imperious and want power.  That's why they're in politics.  That's why our founders, who were experienced in being under the thumb of imperial power,  set up government to limit power.  There are enumerated powers listed where the government can rule only.  All other areas they cannot rule at all.  That's left for the States and people to decide.


Also, there are checks and balances in our constitution as well that limits power of government.  The president cannot declare war, Congress does, but the president can veto it.  The president can make deals with foreign countries, but treaties must be approved by the Senate.  The president nominates judges and justices, but it must be affirmed by the Senate.  Congress legislates laws, but the president has to approve it or its not law.  The Supreme Court reviews legislation and presidential executive orders through lawsuits and can declare them unconstitutional and invalid.  Supreme Court judges can be impeached and removed from office.  Regarding removal of presidents, it was defined very narrowly: high crimes and misdemeanors.  The Constitution reserved ending of presidential terms at election time.  They wanted to leave it to the electors of each of the states to decide.  It's why no president has ever been found guilty and removed from office.  They're not removed for policy decisions.  Parliamentary governments remove leaders midstream.  That's not an American tradition and our governmental process does not favor that approach. 

Alan, you have a kind of text book view of how government works, and most of that is practically untrue. I was a reporter for 25 years and I covered government as every level, from city councils and school boards to the federal government, and have watched ordinances and laws being made. We've been in several wars (Korea, Vietnam, the Middle East) but haven't declared war since World War II. The wars were launched by Presidents with the acquiescence of Congress, but not a declaration by Congress. Contrary to what you suggest, "high crimes and misdemeanors" is not narrow, it is, in fact, exceptionally wide, and allows impeachment on almost any grounds, criminal or not. You could impeach a president for eating cheese on Wednesdays, because impeachment is a political process, not a criminal process, although criminal processes may come later. But, in effect, the House and Senate are left to define high crimes and misdemeanors, and if they decided eating cheese on Wednesday was a high crime, then that's what it is. No American President has been found guilty in an impeachment trial, but one (Nixon) resigned when told that he would be convicted if it came to trial; another conviction failed in the Senate by one vote (Johnson.) Treaties must be approved by the Senate, but the President is in charge of foreign policy, of which treaties are a very minor part, and Trump has felt free to abrogate them. The ongoing disaster in Syria, created by our loony tunes President, involved no treaties or even consultation with Congress. Because he's a raving narcissist, and thinks he knows everything better than anyone, he just went ahead and ordered it up, and nobody knows why...maybe he had an irritating wrinkle in his underwear, but in any case, it's almost universally seen as a disaster, by liberals and conservatives alike. By the way, 12 Americans have been killed in Afghanistan in 2019, probably not many more than if these adventurous young men had been training and driving fast cars in the US. Any casualty is sad, but more than a hundred Americans die in auto accidents EVERY DAY, so our combat deaths are really a pretty minor thing in the whole panoply of tragedies.

I will tell you, that if somebody sliced the pie between liberals and conservatives in the US, I'd be close to the slice, but probably, in most cases, but not always, on the liberal side, especially in matters of racial and gender equality. I think what the Dems are discussing with a wealth tax (ridiculously unworkable) and medicare for all (ditto) are very wrong. And, I would trade Donald Trump for Ronald Reagan in one second, because Reagan may have been senile toward the end of his presidency, but he was surrounded by fairly able people. And though possibly senile, he wasn't nuts. Trump is nuts. I have a hard time taking seriously people who don't see that.
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LesPalenik

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Re: Incursions into Syria
« Reply #102 on: October 16, 2019, 09:16:39 pm »

I will tell you, that if somebody sliced the pie between liberals and conservatives in the US, I'd be close to the slice, but probably, in most cases, but not always, on the liberal side, especially in matters of racial and gender equality. I think what the Dems are discussing with a wealth tax (ridiculously unworkable) and medicare for all (ditto) are very wrong. And, I would trade Donald Trump for Ronald Reagan in one second, because Reagan may have been senile toward the end of his presidency, but he was surrounded by fairly able people. And though possibly senile, he wasn't nuts. Trump is nuts. I have a hard time taking seriously people who don't see that.

To an outsider, the surprising thing is that there aren't enough competent people left in the government to block such "brilliant" decisions. Especially in the military matters.
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Chris Kern

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Re: Incursions into Syria
« Reply #103 on: October 16, 2019, 09:19:13 pm »

To an outsider, the surprising thing is that there aren't enough competent people left in the government to block such irresponsible and stupid decisions. Especially in the military matters.

There were.  They tried.

Career U.S. military, diplomatic, and intelligence officials, as well as some of Trump's own political appointees, apparently warned the president repeatedly about the consequences of acceding to a Turkish request to remove our "tripwire" forces from Syria.  Trump reportedly ignored them.

Many of Trump's most controversial decisions have been executed pursuant to statutory authority explicitly or implicitly granted by Congress to previous presidents, and the decisions could have been countermanded, or the authority rescinded, by legislative action.  However, tactical decisions regarding military forces are constitutionally entrusted to the president:

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The President shall be Commander in Chief of the Army and Navy of the United States, and of the Militia of the several States, when called into the actual Service of the United States . . .
— Article II, §2

So Trump's withdrawal decision was a legal albeit egregious exercise of his constitutional authority.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2019, 09:29:34 pm by Chris Kern »
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LesPalenik

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Re: Incursions into Syria
« Reply #104 on: October 16, 2019, 10:39:52 pm »


Many of Trump's most controversial decisions have been executed pursuant to statutory authority explicitly or implicitly granted by Congress to previous presidents, and the decisions could have been countermanded, or the authority rescinded, by legislative action.  However, tactical decisions regarding military forces are constitutionally entrusted to the president:

So Trump's withdrawal decision was a legal albeit egregious exercise of his constitutional authority.

Whoever made that law, he didn't anticipate a president like Trump. More blunders like that could be still coming.
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Alan Klein

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Re: Incursions into Syria
« Reply #105 on: October 16, 2019, 11:13:11 pm »

Obama made the disastrous decision in 2011 against all his commander's advice to remove troops from Iraq.  It created a power vacuum that set up the growth of ISIS.  Nobody seemed to get into such a blather about it as the situation with the Kurds.  Truman fired WWII hero 5-star General MacArthur and Johnson continually ignored his generals in Vietnam.  He use to check the battlemaps in the Oval office everyday to tell the generals what to do.  He refused to let them do the very things they wanted to do that would have won the war for America.   The generals work for the President not the other way around.  If he screw things up, than the people who he works for can elect another president next year. 

Alan Klein

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Re: Incursions into Syria
« Reply #106 on: October 16, 2019, 11:27:26 pm »

If the Democrats think they can impeach a president calling it only a political process that has no nexus to a crime, they'll be standing on very shaky ground with the American people.  The voters are not stupid.  They can smell a political act when it happens.  It cheapens the process by saying that eating a ham and cheese sandwich could be considered an impeachable act.  The people won't stand for that.   

I think Trump deliberately insulted Speaker Pelosi today to get her ire up even more to move her to impeach him.  It will look so phony, so political,  the people will punish the Democrats when the Senate finds him innocent and does not convict.   But go ahead and make his day.

faberryman

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Re: Incursions into Syria
« Reply #107 on: October 17, 2019, 09:48:34 am »

I ran Trump's latest let's make a deal letter to Erdogan through a Fletcher Kincaid readability scoring program and here are the results:

"Your text has an average grade level of about 6. It should be easily understood by 11 to 12 year olds."

The program generously rounded up from an actual grade level of 5.3, which is the same grade level as his speeches. Stable genius.

Can't wait to read Trump's apologists' replies to this one. It will be a laugh a minute.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2019, 12:36:21 pm by faberryman »
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Alan Klein

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Re: Incursions into Syria
« Reply #108 on: October 17, 2019, 10:05:17 am »

Some of the posts here might get a grade level of 4.  :)

jeremyrh

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Re: Incursions into Syria
« Reply #109 on: October 17, 2019, 10:41:36 am »

If the Democrats think they can impeach a president calling it only a political process that has no nexus to a crime, they'll be standing on very shaky ground with the American people.  The voters are not stupid.  They can smell a political act when it happens.  It cheapens the process by saying that eating a ham and cheese sandwich could be considered an impeachable act.  The people won't stand for that.   

I think Trump deliberately insulted Speaker Pelosi today to get her ire up even more to move her to impeach him.  It will look so phony, so political,  the people will punish the Democrats when the Senate finds him innocent and does not convict.   But go ahead and make his day.

Of course - it's what we expect from a brilliant strategist.
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Paulo Bizarro

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Re: Incursions into Syria
« Reply #110 on: October 17, 2019, 10:59:19 am »

Obama made the disastrous decision in 2011 against all his commander's advice to remove troops from Iraq.  It created a power vacuum that set up the growth of ISIS.  Nobody seemed to get into such a blather about it as the situation with the Kurds.  Truman fired WWII hero 5-star General MacArthur and Johnson continually ignored his generals in Vietnam.  He use to check the battlemaps in the Oval office everyday to tell the generals what to do.  He refused to let them do the very things they wanted to do that would have won the war for America.   The generals work for the President not the other way around.  If he screw things up, than the people who he works for can elect another president next year.

So much for lessons learned...

Alan Klein

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Re: Incursions into Syria
« Reply #111 on: October 17, 2019, 11:42:35 am »

Did he? Against all his commander's advice?
Yes, Obama was warned removal of troops would create a vacuum in Iraq, just as Trump is being warned about a vacuum he's creating in Syria.  Both presidents were, however, responding to their electorates.  They both made promises in their campaigns about getting Americans out of war.  They both were and are looking at getting re-elected when they made their decisions.  Presidents are political.  They should be.  After all, in a democracy they answer to the people, not generals.  Of course, their actions have consequences.  Obama's didn't work out well as ISIS was borne.  We'll see what happens with Trumps.  It's too early to know what will happen.  Hopefully, nothing.  We'll just be out of there. 

Alan Klein

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Re: Incursions into Syria
« Reply #112 on: October 17, 2019, 11:52:37 am »

So much for lessons learned...
Generals have made some real blunders as well as civilian presidents.  But on balance, the founders of the US Constitution wanted civilians in charge of the military.  COmmanders don't answer to the people.  The President, who is elected,  is legally the Commander-in-Chief.  Otherwise you become like Egypt with a military junta taking over.  Or Pakistan where every few years the military dumps the civilian governments.  That arrangement is worse.

Alan Klein

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Re: Incursions into Syria
« Reply #113 on: October 17, 2019, 03:47:48 pm »

Turkey agreed to a 5 day ceasefire.  That will allow Kurds to safely move south of the 20 mile buffer zone Turkey wants set up to prevent Kurdish incursions into Turkey.  So far so good. 

LesPalenik

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Re: Incursions into Syria
« Reply #114 on: October 17, 2019, 04:14:33 pm »

Turkey agreed to a 5 day ceasefire.  That will allow Kurds to safely move south of the 20 mile buffer zone Turkey wants set up to prevent Kurdish incursions into Turkey.  So far so good.

Typical Trump Mode Of Operation. First create a problem (greenlighting of the invasion) and one week later scramble to put out the fires. Gradual transition could have been agreed upon and done before the Turks marched in. Many lives could have been saved, and no ISIS fighters would have escaped.
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Alan Klein

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Re: Incursions into Syria
« Reply #115 on: October 17, 2019, 04:22:05 pm »

Typical Trump Mode Of Operation. First create a problem (greenlighting of the invasion) and one week later scramble to put out the fires. Gradual transition could have been agreed upon and done before the Turks marched in. Many lives could have been saved, and no ISIS fighters would have escaped.

The Kurds would not have moved in negotiations.  It required deadly force from the Turks to get the ball moving.  It's the way the world works. 
« Last Edit: October 17, 2019, 04:25:20 pm by Alan Klein »
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Alan Klein

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Re: Incursions into Syria
« Reply #116 on: October 17, 2019, 04:49:10 pm »

No, negotiations were being conducted by the coalition(!) members, when Trump unilaterally pulled out troops at a moment's instance after a call with Erdogan. It's how Trumpworld works, chaos and destruction, despite all advice by professionals.

So what was said during that call? Time to release the transcript of yet another great phonecall.
I'm not familiar with what negotiations?

Alan Klein

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Re: Incursions into Syria
« Reply #117 on: October 17, 2019, 05:22:39 pm »

Obviously.
Your snarky comment does not enlighten us.    I'm not familiar with any negotiation America was having with the Kurds to pull back their troops 20 miles from the Turkish border.  Even if there were any, my point is that the Kurds would not have budged.  They only moved to get out of the way of Turks moving into the buffer zone with force.  If you're aware of different information, we'd all be glad to hear it.

Alan Klein

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Re: Incursions into Syria
« Reply #118 on: October 17, 2019, 05:31:48 pm »

What's interesting, is if another US president had told the world that we are supporting the Kurds to take away territory from Turkey, Iraq and Syria and give it to the Kurds so they can have a homeland, all you guys would say there goes America again throwing its weight around.  It wants to decide how the world should work and walk over three sovereign nations to do it.  And you'd be right.  But because Trump is doing it, and says it's not our problem and it's not something we should do,  suddenly you reverse your beliefs and support the idea the America should rule the world.  You ought to make up your minds what it is you want from America.  Because you seem very confused. 

faberryman

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Re: Incursions into Syria
« Reply #119 on: October 17, 2019, 05:53:10 pm »

What's interesting, is if another US president had told the world that we are supporting the Kurds to take away territory from Turkey, Iraq and Syria and give it to the Kurds so they can have a homeland, all you guys would say there goes America again throwing its weight around.
Who said anything about taking territory away from Turkey, Iraq and Syria to give the Kurds a homeland? It is another one of your red herrings.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2019, 09:51:45 pm by faberryman »
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