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Author Topic: Where next for Fuji S and R?  (Read 2370 times)

Jim Kasson

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Re: Where next for Fuji S and R?
« Reply #20 on: October 14, 2019, 11:09:51 am »

Yes, you can turn it off from main camera menu.  I leave it on, as one battery in the camera seems to get me through plenty of shots.

My camera seems to turn itself back to "boost" mode every time I turn it back on, when I have it turned off, but even boost mode doesn't seem to drain it very fast. 

As far as design, the IBIS system seems well thought out, and performs well.  If you have a lens with OIS like the 120mm or 250, if you turn off OIS on the lens, it also seems to turn off the IBIS on the camera.  I base this simply on the effect turning off OIS has on the view in the EVF, as it's quite evident there is no stabilization enabled. 

Paul C

It's not clear to me that turning off IBIS reduces power consumption much. It doesn't in the Sony a7x cameras, which don't have an IBIS sled lock. It does in the Z6/7 cameras.

Waker

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Re: Where next for Fuji S and R?
« Reply #21 on: October 17, 2019, 12:01:59 pm »

It's not the cost of IBIS I want to ditch, it's the size and power consumption... both of which drive the size and battery capacity of the GFX-100 body

I think it's highly likely a more compact 100R will be announced in 2020.
Whether that has IBIS or not, is another issue, but I for one will welcome it.

Was at a (non photo) event in September and saw someone walking with a 100S over their shoulder and cringed. "Oof, is that how I look?" It's WAY too big for what it is. Fuji made great low intensity cameras, the 100S is not one of those.

Ordered the GF50mm lens recently, but it's pointless to stick a pancake on this huge body.

Of course, YMMV.
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BJL

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Re: Where next for Fuji S and R — and 44x33mm format in general
« Reply #22 on: October 26, 2019, 02:16:55 pm »

My prediction is that the 100MP Sony 44x33mm sensor will be the only 44x33mm sensor used in new models for several years, and there will be multiple such models, some coming down in price and size, in some cases though omitting the bulk of implementing IBIS on such a big, heavy sensor.

The 50MP sensor seems to be at EOL: no longer in Sony's catalog, but still available at relatively low cost to existing customers, either due to remaining stocks or squeezing revenue out of a production line and R&D whose costs have been amortized.

Hasselblad has to do something soonish.

Phase One is already using that sensor in its mirrorless iXM-100 UAV/drone camera, and offering a range lenses for its mirrorless iXM aerial camera bodies, so I speculate that it will also offer a 44x33mm format EVF camera system for "ground-based" photographers.
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Christopher

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Re: Where next for Fuji S and R — and 44x33mm format in general
« Reply #23 on: October 26, 2019, 02:38:23 pm »


Phase One is already using that sensor in its mirrorless iXM-100 UAV/drone camera, and offering a range lenses for its mirrorless iXM aerial camera bodies, so I speculate that it will also offer a 44x33mm format EVF camera system for "ground-based" photographers.

Won’t happen. That’s what I think. To expensive to produce not enough money to make. Doesn’t make sense at all.

Especially as we will see a 100MP Fuji Version at 6-8k „pretty soon“. 
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Christopher Hauser
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BJL

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Re: Where next for Fuji S and R — and 44x33mm format in general
« Reply #24 on: October 26, 2019, 04:18:44 pm »

To my comment
... Phase One is already using that sensor in its mirrorless iXM-100 UAV/drone camera, and offering a range lenses for its mirrorless iXM aerial camera bodies, so I speculate that it will also offer a 44x33mm format EVF camera system for "ground-based" photographers.
Christopher replied
Won’t happen. That’s what I think. To expensive to produce not enough money to make. Doesn’t make sense at all.

Especially as we will see a 100MP Fuji Version at 6-8k „pretty soon“.
Hasselblad as well as Fujifilm has launched a 44x33mm format EVF camera system, involving producing multiple new lenses while leveraging existing lenses through an adaptor; why do you thing that Phase One will deem it too expensive and stay out of that sector, limiting itself to the far more expensive and bulky 54x40mm SLR system? Not that there's anything wrong with that as a high end option, but I would think that the new 44x33mm format systems have the potential for a far larger market share.
- Unlike Hasselblad when it chose to enter this new 44x33 EVF camera sector, Phase One has already done some of the R&D work through its aerial camera product development.
- Unlike Fujifilm, Phase One has an impressive collection of 645 format lenses usable via a first party, AF aware adaptor while it builds out a new native lens collection.

I do not attribute such an overwhelming benefit to the first mover advantage ("Canon and Nikon will never catch up with Sony in mirrorless", or decades earlier "Canon will never catch up with Nikon in SLRs") as others seem to do.


P. S. But you could be completely right! (my question is serious, not entirely rhetorical). Phase One might settle for being king of the hill in an ever smaller but still quite profitable niche.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2019, 04:27:46 pm by BJL »
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DP

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Re: Where next for Fuji S and R — and 44x33mm format in general
« Reply #25 on: October 26, 2019, 04:24:41 pm »

why do you thing that Phase One will deem it too expensive and stay out of that sector
P1 was priced out ... they simply can't price the products for "masses"
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DP

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Re: Where next for Fuji S and R — and 44x33mm format in general
« Reply #26 on: October 26, 2019, 04:27:17 pm »

omitting the bulk of implementing IBIS on such a big, heavy sensor.
bulk ? please do not mix what Fuji does with how IBIS can be done... consider size of IBIS for FF sensor from Sony vs IBIS for APS-C sensor from Fuji... there is no bulk when IBIS is done properly.
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BJL

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Re: Where next for Fuji S and R — and 44x33mm format in general
« Reply #27 on: October 26, 2019, 04:29:17 pm »

P1 was priced out ... they simply can't price the products for "masses"
44x33mm format is hardly high volume stuff for the masses. I point out again that Hasselblad is also in this sector, and it is far from a mass producer.
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BJL

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Re: Where next for Fuji S and R — and 44x33mm format in general
« Reply #28 on: October 26, 2019, 04:48:13 pm »

bulk ? please do not mix what Fuji does with how IBIS can be done... consider size of IBIS for FF sensor from Sony vs IBIS for APS-C sensor from Fuji... there is no bulk when IBIS is done properly.
I have no idea of the specific sizes of the IBIS actuators in the various formats, but quite clearly the size scales up rapidly with sensor size, so it is a possible factor in camera size (this is all speculation remember) From 36x24 to 44x33 increases sensor area and thus weight by a factor of about 1.7 and also the distances that the sensor assembly must be rapidly moved, so that the velocities needed increase by about 1.3 and kinetic energy (mass time velocity squared) by a factor about 1.7-squared, or 2.8X. Changing direction then thus requires delivering energy about 2.8X faster, so that much more power delivery. And with the higher pixel count and roughly equal pixel size, these larger actuators need the same spatial precision, an extra challenge. I am not saying it cannot be done (Fujifilm is doing it!) but there are clearly substantial increases in the bulk and precision of the equipment needed.

For a lot of high resolution usage, IBIS (or any IS other than a tripod) might just not be worth it when aiming at a smaller, relatively inexpensive model.
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Christopher

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Re: Where next for Fuji S and R?
« Reply #29 on: October 26, 2019, 05:24:06 pm »

The GFX 100 is big, because it needs two batteries to get a decent shot count. That’s partly because of the new sensor and partly because of IBIS.

Regarding Phase One, how big is the market for a third 44x33 camera system? Especially and here be realistic a Phase One system at 20k for a camera and 5-10k for each lens? I would appreciate the competition, but I don’t see it coming at a competing price.
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Christopher Hauser
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BJL

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Re: Where next for Fuji S and R?
« Reply #30 on: October 26, 2019, 07:00:58 pm »

P1 was priced out ... they simply can't price the products for "masses"

Regarding Phase One, how big is the market for a third 44x33 camera system? Especially and here be realistic a Phase One system at 20k for a camera and 5-10k for each lens? I would appreciate the competition, but I don’t see it coming at a competing price.

Mmmm: DP suggests that Phase One is too small to make such a 'product for the masses'; Christopher suggests that the market might be too small for Phase One to bother with!

My guess is that the market for these relatively compact sub-$10,000 44x33 system will be significantly bigger than that for Phase One's current $50,000 54x40mm cameras.  And I point out for the third time that Hasselblad (as well as Fujifilm) has decided to enter this market, so the suggestion that this market sector is either
(a) too big
or
(b) too small
for Phase One does not persuade me.
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BobShaw

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Re: Where next for Fuji S and R?
« Reply #31 on: October 28, 2019, 05:22:30 am »

My guess is that the market for these relatively compact sub-$10,000 44x33 system will be significantly bigger than that for Phase One's current $50,000 54x40mm cameras.
I agree. I think that Fuji and Hasselblad are in the right orbit and Phase has gone off in a tangent into deep space.
I received an offer from our Phase distributor. I could trade in my H6D-100 (which I don't have) and for the measly sum of $39,990 Inc GST (AU) I could get a Phase XF IQ4. I might pass.
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DP

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Re: Where next for Fuji S and R?
« Reply #32 on: October 28, 2019, 06:24:55 am »

Mmmm: DP suggests that Phase One is too small
you have a vivid imagination (because I didn't suggest anything about the size at all - just about the decision to price their products away from "masses")...
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BJL

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Re: Where next for Fuji S and R?
« Reply #33 on: October 28, 2019, 11:39:04 am »

you have a vivid imagination (because I didn't suggest anything about the size at all - just about the decision to price their products away from "masses")...
My misunderstanding of you saying that Phase One “can’t price products for ‘masses’”. Cannot rather than a choice not to.

I’m still puzzled by the idea that things like the Hasselblad X system and Fujifilm GFX and lenses are priced for the “masses”.

I agree that Phase One is likely to skip the “bargain basement”, gateway camera pricing of working with obsolescent 50MP sensors.
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BobShaw

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Re: Where next for Fuji S and R?
« Reply #34 on: October 28, 2019, 05:17:12 pm »

...
I’m still puzzled by the idea that things like the Hasselblad X system and Fujifilm GFX and lenses are priced for the “masses”.
I agree that Phase One is likely to skip the “bargain basement”, gateway camera pricing of working with obsolescent 50MP sensors.
I don't think any of these cameras are for the "masses" without inverted commas but they would be for the majority of medium format camera users.
As for "obsolescent" 50MP sensors I think that the majority of users don't want more than 50MP. In my case none of my work requires more than that and I can take a small crop from it (like a head shot from a full length) and still have 20MP which is usually plenty. I used to print a metre wide from that with a 5D2.

If I was to go to 100MP then all that would happen is that I would need twice the storage and backup capability which would have a negative impact on business. Two 50MP cameras are better than one 100MP anyway. I could probably buy an X1D for each day of the week for the price of a 150MP camera.

I don't know what the price of the new Canon 1Dx3 will be but I doubt that it will be more than 20% from these "for the masses" cameras. Obviously for a different sports market but still professional use.
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BJL

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Re: Where next for Fuji S and R?
« Reply #35 on: October 28, 2019, 11:06:10 pm »

@BobShaw, I can see many having no interest in the pixel count doubling, but from what I’ve read, the newer 100MP sensor has substantial improvements in other aspects like DR, so that for example downsizing to 50MP from it would give better IQ. Many have argued that the 50MP is now outperformed by the best 35mm format alternatives.

But anyway, the 50 MP is discontinued, or close to. So a new system from Phase One or anyone else would go with the new sensor.
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