Luminous Landscape Forum
Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs – and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: free1000 on August 23, 2019, 05:23:44 am
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Both the Fuji 50S and R are based on technology originally released nearly 3 years ago.
Having looked at what Sony is doing with sensor products, there doesn't seem to be any intermediate product between 50 and 100Mp for the mini-MF sensor size, so the next logical step for the smaller bodies is up to 100Mp. The 61Mp FF chips announced for the Sony and Nikon FF cameras have the same pixel pitch as the GFX 100 sensor, so it seems that the Sony chip fab is going to be turning out a lot of BSI chips at that pixel size.
When the A7R IV and Nikon Z 61Mp cameras are out, these cameras lose their resolution edge in the market place and pixels do still sell cameras.
A bit of 'kremlinology', where next for the Fuji GFX range and particularly the smaller cameras? I'd guess for some kind of revamp with the 100Mp chip after the initial sales of the GFX 100 camera has soaked up the early adopters and the fab has come up to full speed turning out wafers.
The Sony consumer product map is here : https://www.sony-semicon.co.jp/products_en/IS/sensor2/products/index.html
While this does not include all the products that are rumoured, and I guess specific products are made to order for eg: Nikon that won't appear here, I assume that most products will use the same fabrication plants and so there are limits to the technologies available.
ie: Sony builds out its 3.76 wafer plant then generates a bunch of standard products for these, with enterprise customers doing specific deals for custom outputs from that level of plant.
This would mean that future chips would most likely come from the currently available processes indicated on the product map, even if they might have some custom toppings, the base sensor technology has to be shared across a larger set of products to be viable.
Its a wild guess on my part but I'm wondering if the 2.6 micro Stacked BSI process might be the next one to make its way to FF and MF for the next generation. That would provide a big improvement in noise and a pixel bump. An FF sensor at this pitch is 96Mp and a mini-MF would be 150+ with the Full MF chips getting up to 230Mp!
I'm ready and waiting for someone to throw a bucket of water over me on that. My mouth waters at the prospect of a Fuji 150R sometime in the future.
Less wildly the likelihood is that the R and S will stay at 50Mp and get some kind of internal refresh, maybe like the Hasselblad X1D II which is staying with the 50Mp sensor. Maybe the S and R won't see the 100Mp sensor at least until more of the big camera features can be miniaturised, such as the IBIS to make the use of such resolution more useful in a hand held package.
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I don't expect a change for the S & R. Think about it this way, 50MP is quite a lot of pixels, and at their current prices, I could see a number of folks getting one & building out their lenses, then renting a -100 when needed. Hass just released 2 'new' cameras with the same chip, so either Sony has a huge stockpile of them, or they still do runs of that chip. But I don't expect a new 33x44 chip design - there's nothing to gain, either jump up to the 101mp, or use the existing 50mp/61mp (35mm).
What in the -100 would you give up to get it into a smaller form? Has Sony released a follow up to the roadmap from 2017 that put the 100mp/150mp products out there? There's a point of diminished returns for some 'togs so where is that point? I think the A7r4 will tell us a lot - how many folks need to go from 42mp to 61mp. It's 50% more dots, that makes a file that's 50% larger per shot. I anticipate that folks will go back to upgrading their glass faster than their bodies.
Remember, Sony is competing with itself on the 100mp chips - something that we haven't seen in MF for a while. Maybe the 39mp Kodak 36x48mm chip compared to 33x44 40mp Dalsa chip (please correct me if I got my chip mfgs mixed up). The 50mp 33x44 is old & successful, and the mirrorless chips needed better af integrated into the chip, so the 150/101/61 BSI chips are a family. What the next gen of that family will be is a good question.
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When the A7R IV and Nikon Z 61Mp cameras are out, these cameras lose their resolution edge in the market place and pixels do still sell cameras.
What Nikon Z 61MP camera? Did I miss the announcement?
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What in the -100 would you give up to get it into a smaller form?
I would gladly give up IBIS. Then I wouldn't need the second battery or the vertical grip either. An "R" version with a slightly better EVF would be an ideal tripod camera for landscape, architecture, macro, etc. And if I am dreaming, they would also ditch the PD autofocus and associated firmware and banding.
Glenn
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What Nikon Z 61MP camera? Did I miss the announcement?
Just rumors for now.
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What Nikon Z 61MP camera? Did I miss the announcement?
Yes, sorry just a rumour. It has been kicking around for a long time but no actual evidence for it. I don't think the pixel uplift is important, but for the Z cameras there seems to be a need to bump the AF hardware and maybe it would be more of a refresh than a new higher resolution camera. The lack of two card slots matters for some people as well.
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Both the Fuji 50S and R are based on technology originally released nearly 3 years ago.
The Pentax 645Z was announced in April of 2014.
Jim
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The Pentax 645Z was announced in April of 2014.
IQ250 shipped in Jan 2014, but who is counting? ;)
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IQ250 shipped in Jan 2014, but who is counting? ;)
You are, Doug, and I'm glad of that.
By the way, do you know how many new (not refurbished) IQ250s P1 shipped over the life of that camera?
Jim
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I would gladly give up IBIS. Then I wouldn't need the second battery or the vertical grip either. An "R" version with a slightly better EVF would be an ideal tripod camera for landscape, architecture, macro, etc. And if I am dreaming, they would also ditch the PD autofocus and associated firmware and banding.
Glenn
Giving up IBIS really doesn't save that much - it's cost is small compared to the chip. I'd have to look a lot closer to the behind the scenes video as to the internal layout of the camera, but I don't think you'd gain battery placement in the hand grip. A better EVF could be an accessory, but if you need critical focus you're looking at a large external monitor anyway. I would anticipate a year plus wait for anything that might cut into the sales of the 10k camera, if anything I would see it going on sale for $500 off before a cheaper option body came out.
Fuji has the market cornered as the only consumer camera with the 100mp 33x44 chip. Until there's something else made with this chip, why would Fuji compromise on the pricing or offer up a cheaper option? This is why having multiple healthy MF companies (Phase, Hass, Fuji, Pentax, Leica) is important.
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The Pentax 645Z was announced in April of 2014.
Jim
Some welcome stability in an otherwise unstable world ;)
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Giving up IBIS really doesn't save that much - it's cost is small compared to the chip. I'd have to look a lot closer to the behind the scenes video as to the internal layout of the camera, but I don't think you'd gain battery placement in the hand grip. A better EVF could be an accessory, but if you need critical focus you're looking at a large external monitor anyway. I would anticipate a year plus wait for anything that might cut into the sales of the 10k camera, if anything I would see it going on sale for $500 off before a cheaper option body came out.
Fuji has the market cornered as the only consumer camera with the 100mp 33x44 chip. Until there's something else made with this chip, why would Fuji compromise on the pricing or offer up a cheaper option? This is why having multiple healthy MF companies (Phase, Hass, Fuji, Pentax, Leica) is important.
It's not the cost of IBIS I want to ditch, it's the size and power consumption... both of which drive the size and battery capacity of the GFX-100 body
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I have a 50s and have no desire for the 100. This has been my dream camera. But I am not a gear person. I'd rather obsess about a print than a camera. :-)
Sharon
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I currently own the 50S (pretty much exclusively for landscape) and have been toying with the idea of an IQ250 back and a tech cam such as the Alpa STC and a couple of lenses for my landscape work; though this would be an expensive trade for the same sensor essentially. However, looking ahead, a future upgrade to the IQ3 100MP would've been my plan on that same tech cam platform. But with Phase essentially ditching Alpa for the Cambo platform in their XT, I am apprehensive to invest that money in Alpa, to say the least. Getting back to the point, what really would keep me with Fuji would be their modular camera brick they have showcased in the "Fujikina's" with the 100MP sensor, no IBIS and definitely NO PDAF banding!
Now that would be a good alternative to the current GFX 100S and wouldn't/shouldn't dig into sales of that bigger camera body either....
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PDAF Banding with the GFX100 is a bit over blown as an issue.
Sure you want to push a shot 6 stops you might see banding. That’s a bit impractical for me.
Plenty of DR with shadow push within reason without banding.
At least from my experience your mileage may vary.
Paul C
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Thanks, that’s helpful to know from a user perspective!
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It's not the cost of IBIS I want to ditch, it's the size and power consumption... both of which drive the size and battery capacity of the GFX-100 body
Can't you set IBIS to OFF ?
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PDAF Banding with the GFX100 is a bit over blown as an issue...
Paul C
How about blue skies? That seems to be the weakest point ( uniform color parts and only one color channel used)
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I agree that blue skies can be an issue with any camera.
I have had a lot of them recently here, no clouds, not my favorite time to shoot.
But with exposure bracketing set to 1 2/3 per stop, I had several images that ranged as much as 2 to 2.5 stops underexposed. I saw no issues in the skies. No banding, and minimal noise, used ISO 125 to 160.
If you push hard enough into the 5 to 6 stop range, you can see it, but for me it's so far a non issue. But it was also for the Z7 for me.
Paul C
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How about blue skies? That seems to be the weakest point ( uniform color parts and only one color channel used)
Yes, you can turn it off from main camera menu. I leave it on, as one battery in the camera seems to get me through plenty of shots.
My camera seems to turn itself back to "boost" mode every time I turn it back on, when I have it turned off, but even boost mode doesn't seem to drain it very fast.
As far as design, the IBIS system seems well thought out, and performs well. If you have a lens with OIS like the 120mm or 250, if you turn off OIS on the lens, it also seems to turn off the IBIS on the camera. I base this simply on the effect turning off OIS has on the view in the EVF, as it's quite evident there is no stabilization enabled.
Paul C
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Yes, you can turn it off from main camera menu. I leave it on, as one battery in the camera seems to get me through plenty of shots.
My camera seems to turn itself back to "boost" mode every time I turn it back on, when I have it turned off, but even boost mode doesn't seem to drain it very fast.
As far as design, the IBIS system seems well thought out, and performs well. If you have a lens with OIS like the 120mm or 250, if you turn off OIS on the lens, it also seems to turn off the IBIS on the camera. I base this simply on the effect turning off OIS has on the view in the EVF, as it's quite evident there is no stabilization enabled.
Paul C
It's not clear to me that turning off IBIS reduces power consumption much. It doesn't in the Sony a7x cameras, which don't have an IBIS sled lock. It does in the Z6/7 cameras.
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It's not the cost of IBIS I want to ditch, it's the size and power consumption... both of which drive the size and battery capacity of the GFX-100 body
I think it's highly likely a more compact 100R will be announced in 2020.
Whether that has IBIS or not, is another issue, but I for one will welcome it.
Was at a (non photo) event in September and saw someone walking with a 100S over their shoulder and cringed. "Oof, is that how I look?" It's WAY too big for what it is. Fuji made great low intensity cameras, the 100S is not one of those.
Ordered the GF50mm lens recently, but it's pointless to stick a pancake on this huge body.
Of course, YMMV.
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My prediction is that the 100MP Sony 44x33mm sensor will be the only 44x33mm sensor used in new models for several years, and there will be multiple such models, some coming down in price and size, in some cases though omitting the bulk of implementing IBIS on such a big, heavy sensor.
The 50MP sensor seems to be at EOL: no longer in Sony's catalog, but still available at relatively low cost to existing customers, either due to remaining stocks or squeezing revenue out of a production line and R&D whose costs have been amortized.
Hasselblad has to do something soonish.
Phase One is already using that sensor in its mirrorless iXM-100 UAV/drone camera, and offering a range lenses for its mirrorless iXM aerial camera bodies, so I speculate that it will also offer a 44x33mm format EVF camera system for "ground-based" photographers.
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Phase One is already using that sensor in its mirrorless iXM-100 UAV/drone camera, and offering a range lenses for its mirrorless iXM aerial camera bodies, so I speculate that it will also offer a 44x33mm format EVF camera system for "ground-based" photographers.
Won’t happen. That’s what I think. To expensive to produce not enough money to make. Doesn’t make sense at all.
Especially as we will see a 100MP Fuji Version at 6-8k „pretty soon“.
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To my comment
... Phase One is already using that sensor in its mirrorless iXM-100 UAV/drone camera, and offering a range lenses for its mirrorless iXM aerial camera bodies, so I speculate that it will also offer a 44x33mm format EVF camera system for "ground-based" photographers.
Christopher replied
Won’t happen. That’s what I think. To expensive to produce not enough money to make. Doesn’t make sense at all.
Especially as we will see a 100MP Fuji Version at 6-8k „pretty soon“.
Hasselblad as well as Fujifilm has launched a 44x33mm format EVF camera system, involving producing multiple new lenses while leveraging existing lenses through an adaptor; why do you thing that Phase One will deem it too expensive and stay out of that sector, limiting itself to the far more expensive and bulky 54x40mm SLR system? Not that there's anything wrong with that as a high end option, but I would think that the new 44x33mm format systems have the potential for a far larger market share.
- Unlike Hasselblad when it chose to enter this new 44x33 EVF camera sector, Phase One has already done some of the R&D work through its aerial camera product development.
- Unlike Fujifilm, Phase One has an impressive collection of 645 format lenses usable via a first party, AF aware adaptor while it builds out a new native lens collection.
I do not attribute such an overwhelming benefit to the first mover advantage ("Canon and Nikon will never catch up with Sony in mirrorless", or decades earlier "Canon will never catch up with Nikon in SLRs") as others seem to do.
P. S. But you could be completely right! (my question is serious, not entirely rhetorical). Phase One might settle for being king of the hill in an ever smaller but still quite profitable niche.
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why do you thing that Phase One will deem it too expensive and stay out of that sector
P1 was priced out ... they simply can't price the products for "masses"
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omitting the bulk of implementing IBIS on such a big, heavy sensor.
bulk ? please do not mix what Fuji does with how IBIS can be done... consider size of IBIS for FF sensor from Sony vs IBIS for APS-C sensor from Fuji... there is no bulk when IBIS is done properly.
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P1 was priced out ... they simply can't price the products for "masses"
44x33mm format is hardly high volume stuff for the masses. I point out again that Hasselblad is also in this sector, and it is far from a mass producer.
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bulk ? please do not mix what Fuji does with how IBIS can be done... consider size of IBIS for FF sensor from Sony vs IBIS for APS-C sensor from Fuji... there is no bulk when IBIS is done properly.
I have no idea of the specific sizes of the IBIS actuators in the various formats, but quite clearly the size scales up rapidly with sensor size, so it is a possible factor in camera size (this is all speculation remember) From 36x24 to 44x33 increases sensor area and thus weight by a factor of about 1.7 and also the distances that the sensor assembly must be rapidly moved, so that the velocities needed increase by about 1.3 and kinetic energy (mass time velocity squared) by a factor about 1.7-squared, or 2.8X. Changing direction then thus requires delivering energy about 2.8X faster, so that much more power delivery. And with the higher pixel count and roughly equal pixel size, these larger actuators need the same spatial precision, an extra challenge. I am not saying it cannot be done (Fujifilm is doing it!) but there are clearly substantial increases in the bulk and precision of the equipment needed.
For a lot of high resolution usage, IBIS (or any IS other than a tripod) might just not be worth it when aiming at a smaller, relatively inexpensive model.
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The GFX 100 is big, because it needs two batteries to get a decent shot count. That’s partly because of the new sensor and partly because of IBIS.
Regarding Phase One, how big is the market for a third 44x33 camera system? Especially and here be realistic a Phase One system at 20k for a camera and 5-10k for each lens? I would appreciate the competition, but I don’t see it coming at a competing price.
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P1 was priced out ... they simply can't price the products for "masses"
Regarding Phase One, how big is the market for a third 44x33 camera system? Especially and here be realistic a Phase One system at 20k for a camera and 5-10k for each lens? I would appreciate the competition, but I don’t see it coming at a competing price.
Mmmm: DP suggests that Phase One is too small to make such a 'product for the masses'; Christopher suggests that the market might be too small for Phase One to bother with!
My guess is that the market for these relatively compact sub-$10,000 44x33 system will be significantly bigger than that for Phase One's current $50,000 54x40mm cameras. And I point out for the third time that Hasselblad (as well as Fujifilm) has decided to enter this market, so the suggestion that this market sector is either
(a) too big
or
(b) too small
for Phase One does not persuade me.
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My guess is that the market for these relatively compact sub-$10,000 44x33 system will be significantly bigger than that for Phase One's current $50,000 54x40mm cameras.
I agree. I think that Fuji and Hasselblad are in the right orbit and Phase has gone off in a tangent into deep space.
I received an offer from our Phase distributor. I could trade in my H6D-100 (which I don't have) and for the measly sum of $39,990 Inc GST (AU) I could get a Phase XF IQ4. I might pass.
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Mmmm: DP suggests that Phase One is too small
you have a vivid imagination (because I didn't suggest anything about the size at all - just about the decision to price their products away from "masses")...
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you have a vivid imagination (because I didn't suggest anything about the size at all - just about the decision to price their products away from "masses")...
My misunderstanding of you saying that Phase One “can’t price products for ‘masses’”. Cannot rather than a choice not to.
I’m still puzzled by the idea that things like the Hasselblad X system and Fujifilm GFX and lenses are priced for the “masses”.
I agree that Phase One is likely to skip the “bargain basement”, gateway camera pricing of working with obsolescent 50MP sensors.
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I’m still puzzled by the idea that things like the Hasselblad X system and Fujifilm GFX and lenses are priced for the “masses”.
I agree that Phase One is likely to skip the “bargain basement”, gateway camera pricing of working with obsolescent 50MP sensors.
I don't think any of these cameras are for the "masses" without inverted commas but they would be for the majority of medium format camera users.
As for "obsolescent" 50MP sensors I think that the majority of users don't want more than 50MP. In my case none of my work requires more than that and I can take a small crop from it (like a head shot from a full length) and still have 20MP which is usually plenty. I used to print a metre wide from that with a 5D2.
If I was to go to 100MP then all that would happen is that I would need twice the storage and backup capability which would have a negative impact on business. Two 50MP cameras are better than one 100MP anyway. I could probably buy an X1D for each day of the week for the price of a 150MP camera.
I don't know what the price of the new Canon 1Dx3 will be but I doubt that it will be more than 20% from these "for the masses" cameras. Obviously for a different sports market but still professional use.
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@BobShaw, I can see many having no interest in the pixel count doubling, but from what I’ve read, the newer 100MP sensor has substantial improvements in other aspects like DR, so that for example downsizing to 50MP from it would give better IQ. Many have argued that the 50MP is now outperformed by the best 35mm format alternatives.
But anyway, the 50 MP is discontinued, or close to. So a new system from Phase One or anyone else would go with the new sensor.