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Author Topic: Where next for Fuji S and R?  (Read 2360 times)

free1000

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Where next for Fuji S and R?
« on: August 23, 2019, 05:23:44 am »

Both the Fuji 50S and R are based on technology originally released nearly 3 years ago.

Having looked at what Sony is doing with sensor products, there doesn't seem to be any intermediate product between 50 and 100Mp for the mini-MF sensor size, so the next logical step for the smaller bodies is up to 100Mp. The 61Mp FF chips announced for the Sony and Nikon FF cameras have the same pixel pitch as the GFX 100 sensor, so it seems that the Sony chip fab is going to be turning out a lot of BSI chips at that pixel size.

When the A7R IV and Nikon Z 61Mp cameras are out,  these cameras lose their resolution edge in the market place and pixels do still sell cameras.
 
A bit of 'kremlinology',  where next for the Fuji GFX range and particularly the smaller cameras?  I'd guess for some kind of revamp with the 100Mp chip after the initial sales of the GFX 100 camera has soaked up the early adopters and the fab has come up to full speed turning out wafers.

The Sony consumer product map is here : https://www.sony-semicon.co.jp/products_en/IS/sensor2/products/index.html

While this does not include all the products that are rumoured, and I guess specific products are made to order for eg: Nikon that won't appear here, I assume that most products will use the same fabrication plants and so there are limits to the technologies available.

ie: Sony builds out its 3.76 wafer plant then generates a bunch of standard products for these, with enterprise customers doing specific deals for custom outputs from that level of plant. 

This would mean that future chips would most likely come from the currently available processes indicated on the product map, even if they might have some custom toppings, the base sensor technology has to be shared across a larger set of products to be viable. 

Its a wild guess on my part but I'm wondering if the 2.6 micro Stacked BSI process might be the next one to make its way to FF and MF for the next generation. That would provide a big improvement in noise and a pixel bump.  An FF sensor at this pitch is 96Mp and a mini-MF would be 150+ with the Full MF chips getting up to 230Mp!

I'm ready and waiting for someone to throw a bucket of water over me on that.  My mouth waters at the prospect of a Fuji 150R sometime in the future. 

Less wildly the likelihood is that the R and S will stay at 50Mp and get some kind of internal refresh, maybe like the Hasselblad X1D II which is staying with the 50Mp sensor.  Maybe the S and R won't see the 100Mp sensor at least until more of the big camera features can be miniaturised, such as the IBIS to make the use of such resolution more useful in a hand held package.

 

« Last Edit: August 23, 2019, 09:39:29 am by free1000 »
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Joe Towner

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Re: Where next for Fuji S and R?
« Reply #1 on: August 23, 2019, 06:37:00 pm »

I don't expect a change for the S & R. Think about it this way, 50MP is quite a lot of pixels, and at their current prices, I could see a number of folks getting one & building out their lenses, then renting a -100 when needed.  Hass just released 2 'new' cameras with the same chip, so either Sony has a huge stockpile of them, or they still do runs of that chip.  But I don't expect a new 33x44 chip design - there's nothing to gain, either jump up to the 101mp, or use the existing 50mp/61mp (35mm).

What in the -100 would you give up to get it into a smaller form?  Has Sony released a follow up to the roadmap from 2017 that put the 100mp/150mp products out there? There's a point of diminished returns for some 'togs so where is that point?  I think the A7r4 will tell us a lot - how many folks need to go from 42mp to 61mp. It's 50% more dots, that makes a file that's 50% larger per shot. I anticipate that folks will go back to upgrading their glass faster than their bodies.

Remember, Sony is competing with itself on the 100mp chips - something that we haven't seen in MF for a while.  Maybe the 39mp Kodak 36x48mm chip compared to 33x44 40mp Dalsa  chip (please correct me if I got my chip mfgs mixed up).  The 50mp 33x44 is old & successful, and the mirrorless chips needed better af integrated into the chip, so the 150/101/61 BSI chips are a family.  What the next gen of that family will be is a good question.
« Last Edit: August 23, 2019, 06:44:22 pm by Joe Towner »
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faberryman

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Re: Where next for Fuji S and R?
« Reply #2 on: August 23, 2019, 06:40:12 pm »

When the A7R IV and Nikon Z 61Mp cameras are out,  these cameras lose their resolution edge in the market place and pixels do still sell cameras.
What Nikon Z 61MP camera? Did I miss the announcement?

gkroeger

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Re: Where next for Fuji S and R?
« Reply #3 on: August 23, 2019, 11:44:57 pm »

What in the -100 would you give up to get it into a smaller form?

I would gladly give up IBIS. Then I wouldn't need the second battery or the vertical grip either. An "R" version with a slightly better EVF would be an ideal tripod camera for landscape, architecture, macro, etc. And if I am dreaming, they would also ditch the PD autofocus and associated firmware and banding.

Glenn
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SrMi

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Re: Where next for Fuji S and R?
« Reply #4 on: August 24, 2019, 12:12:22 am »

What Nikon Z 61MP camera? Did I miss the announcement?
Just rumors for now.
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free1000

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Re: Where next for Fuji S and R?
« Reply #5 on: August 24, 2019, 05:46:17 am »

What Nikon Z 61MP camera? Did I miss the announcement?

Yes, sorry just a rumour. It has been kicking around for a long time but no actual evidence for it.  I don't think the pixel uplift is important, but for the Z cameras there seems to be a need to bump the AF hardware and maybe it would be more of a refresh than a new higher resolution camera. The lack of two card slots matters for some people as well.
 
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Jim Kasson

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Re: Where next for Fuji S and R?
« Reply #6 on: August 24, 2019, 11:24:17 am »

Both the Fuji 50S and R are based on technology originally released nearly 3 years ago.

The Pentax 645Z was announced in April of 2014.

Jim

Doug Peterson

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Re: Where next for Fuji S and R?
« Reply #7 on: August 24, 2019, 03:18:18 pm »

The Pentax 645Z was announced in April of 2014.

IQ250 shipped in Jan 2014, but who is counting? ;)

Jim Kasson

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Re: Where next for Fuji S and R?
« Reply #8 on: August 24, 2019, 03:27:06 pm »

IQ250 shipped in Jan 2014, but who is counting? ;)

You are, Doug, and I'm glad of that.

By the way, do you know how many new (not refurbished) IQ250s P1 shipped over the life of that camera?

Jim

Joe Towner

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Re: Where next for Fuji S and R?
« Reply #9 on: August 24, 2019, 07:32:30 pm »

I would gladly give up IBIS. Then I wouldn't need the second battery or the vertical grip either. An "R" version with a slightly better EVF would be an ideal tripod camera for landscape, architecture, macro, etc. And if I am dreaming, they would also ditch the PD autofocus and associated firmware and banding.

Glenn

Giving up IBIS really doesn't save that much - it's cost is small compared to the chip. I'd have to look a lot closer to the behind the scenes video as to the internal layout of the camera, but I don't think you'd gain battery placement in the hand grip.  A better EVF could be an accessory, but if you need critical focus you're looking at a large external monitor anyway.  I would anticipate a year plus wait for anything that might cut into the sales of the 10k camera, if anything I would see it going on sale for $500 off before a cheaper option body came out.

Fuji has the market cornered as the only consumer camera with the 100mp 33x44 chip.  Until there's something else made with this chip, why would Fuji compromise on the pricing or offer up a cheaper option?  This is why having multiple healthy MF companies (Phase, Hass, Fuji, Pentax, Leica) is important.
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free1000

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Re: Where next for Fuji S and R?
« Reply #10 on: August 24, 2019, 07:37:27 pm »

The Pentax 645Z was announced in April of 2014.

Jim

Some welcome stability in an otherwise unstable world  ;)
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gkroeger

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Re: Where next for Fuji S and R?
« Reply #11 on: August 24, 2019, 07:43:08 pm »

Giving up IBIS really doesn't save that much - it's cost is small compared to the chip. I'd have to look a lot closer to the behind the scenes video as to the internal layout of the camera, but I don't think you'd gain battery placement in the hand grip.  A better EVF could be an accessory, but if you need critical focus you're looking at a large external monitor anyway.  I would anticipate a year plus wait for anything that might cut into the sales of the 10k camera, if anything I would see it going on sale for $500 off before a cheaper option body came out.

Fuji has the market cornered as the only consumer camera with the 100mp 33x44 chip.  Until there's something else made with this chip, why would Fuji compromise on the pricing or offer up a cheaper option?  This is why having multiple healthy MF companies (Phase, Hass, Fuji, Pentax, Leica) is important.

It's not the cost of IBIS I want to ditch, it's the size and power consumption... both of which drive the size and battery capacity of the GFX-100 body
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SharonVL

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Re: Where next for Fuji S and R?
« Reply #12 on: August 24, 2019, 08:40:58 pm »

I have a 50s and have no desire for the 100. This has been my dream camera. But I am not a gear person. I'd rather obsess about a print than a camera. :-)

Sharon

UKstevieg

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Re: Where next for Fuji S and R?
« Reply #13 on: October 13, 2019, 03:19:18 pm »

I currently own the 50S (pretty much exclusively for landscape) and have been toying with the idea of an IQ250 back and a tech cam such as the Alpa STC and a couple of lenses for my landscape work; though this would be an expensive trade for the same sensor essentially. However, looking ahead, a future upgrade to the IQ3 100MP would've been my plan on that same tech cam platform. But with Phase essentially ditching Alpa for the Cambo platform in their XT, I am apprehensive to invest that money in Alpa, to say the least. Getting back to the point, what really would keep me with Fuji would be their modular camera brick they have showcased in the "Fujikina's" with the 100MP sensor, no IBIS and definitely NO PDAF banding!
Now that would be a good alternative to the current GFX 100S and wouldn't/shouldn't dig into sales of that bigger camera body either....
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Paul2660

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Re: Where next for Fuji S and R?
« Reply #14 on: October 13, 2019, 04:32:28 pm »

PDAF Banding with the GFX100 is a bit over blown as an issue.

Sure you want to push a shot 6 stops you might see banding. That’s a bit impractical for me.

Plenty of DR with shadow push within reason without banding.

At least from my experience your mileage may vary.

Paul C

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UKstevieg

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Re: Where next for Fuji S and R?
« Reply #15 on: October 14, 2019, 06:05:13 am »

Thanks, that’s helpful to know from a user perspective!
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kers

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Re: Where next for Fuji S and R?
« Reply #16 on: October 14, 2019, 06:41:19 am »

It's not the cost of IBIS I want to ditch, it's the size and power consumption... both of which drive the size and battery capacity of the GFX-100 body
Can't you set IBIS to OFF ?
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kers

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Re: Where next for Fuji S and R?
« Reply #17 on: October 14, 2019, 06:43:22 am »

PDAF Banding with the GFX100 is a bit over blown as an issue...
Paul C
How about blue skies? That seems to be the weakest point  ( uniform color parts and only one color channel used)
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Paul2660

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Re: Where next for Fuji S and R?
« Reply #18 on: October 14, 2019, 08:44:26 am »

I agree that blue skies can be an issue with any camera. 

I have had a lot of them recently here, no clouds, not my favorite time to shoot. 

But with exposure bracketing  set to 1 2/3 per stop, I had several images that ranged as much as 2 to 2.5 stops underexposed.  I saw no issues in the skies.  No banding, and minimal noise, used ISO 125 to 160. 

If you push hard enough into the 5 to 6 stop range, you can see it, but for me it's so far a non issue.  But it was also for the Z7 for me.

Paul C
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Paul2660

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Re: Where next for Fuji S and R?
« Reply #19 on: October 14, 2019, 09:04:42 am »

How about blue skies? That seems to be the weakest point  ( uniform color parts and only one color channel used)

Yes, you can turn it off from main camera menu.  I leave it on, as one battery in the camera seems to get me through plenty of shots.

My camera seems to turn itself back to "boost" mode every time I turn it back on, when I have it turned off, but even boost mode doesn't seem to drain it very fast. 

As far as design, the IBIS system seems well thought out, and performs well.  If you have a lens with OIS like the 120mm or 250, if you turn off OIS on the lens, it also seems to turn off the IBIS on the camera.  I base this simply on the effect turning off OIS has on the view in the EVF, as it's quite evident there is no stabilization enabled. 

Paul C
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