How media over-represents 15 times climatosceptiks fake science

[Alan Klein]

I did, even though it's off-topic for this thread..

Payments/services/gifts to individual members of parliament above a market value of € 50 have to be reported in a register. Their salaries are public information, the Prime Minister (and other Ministers) gets paid € 165.916 annually before taxes (in a progressive scale).

Payments/donations to Political parties above € 4,500 (sumtotal of a year) have to be reported (and name and domicile of the giver are published), this includes payments from members of parliament to their party (some parties get part or all of the income of a member of parliament, and pay back part of that each month). In practice (from public records), it is rare for amounts to exceed € 10,000 - 15,000 for the full year, and even those donations are rare.

All records are public, and parties publish their annual bookkeeping after approval of accountants.
All information is available on line:
https://www.parlement.com/id/vhnnmt7l3ozz/partijfinanciering

It's not much different in the USA.  There are limits to individual donations for candidates individual campaigns. It all has to be reported publicly.  Donations cannot be given on a quid pro quo for specific legislation.  That favoritism could be considered a bribe. 

Can you answer my question #2 which I'll bring back into this thread.  "2. Can individuals hire what we call "lobbyists" to represent them in petitioning parliamentarians to support certain legislation?"  I'll expand individuals to also groups like The Animal Fund or The Sierra Club or other green organizations.  By giving their considerable financial resources to let's say the Democrat party, that money winds up in the campaigns of Democrats to support their campaigns.  So politicians support environmental legislation because they get money from green group. Likewise, a group representing the oil industry would do the same, with Republicans who would support fossil fuel legislation.  Don;t you have similar things going on in your country and in other parts of Europe.  For example, the wind power companies would support Dutch legislation for wind energy.  Don;t they contribute to politicians?

[Bart_van_der_Wolf]

It's not much different in the USA.  There are limits to individual donations for candidates individual campaigns. It all has to be reported publicly.  Donations cannot be given on a quid pro quo for specific legislation.  That favoritism could be considered a bribe. 

Can you answer my question #2 which I'll bring back into this thread.  "2. Can individuals hire what we call "lobbyists" to represent them in petitioning parliamentarians to support certain legislation?"

I could answer if I understood the question. If the question is: do parliamentarians get information from "lobbyists", they probably do, as they do from speaking with others, be it social organizations or individuals. They also actively go around the country to collect first-hand information from workers in certain fields, the people on the work floor.

But if the question is: "do they personally benefit from adopting those lobbyist views and not those of others?" the answer is: not financially. It would also not help their political career, because they don't run for candidacy based on a personal campaign that needs to be funded.

Remember, we have a relatively direct method of electing our members of parliament with a simple kind of direct majority vote, and we the people can choose to elect someone on a low position in the rankings (preference of the party), with a preferential vote. If enough people vote for a person, then that person will get a position in parliament, nothing that his/her party can do about that. We also do not have to register as someone going to vote for one party or another, we decide in the voting booth, who and from what party (currently, 14 different parties have a seat in what you could compare with your Congres). Every citizen can vote for anyone on the lists with all candidates.

So, bad or shady performance in public, is likely to cost one his/her place in politics.

I'll expand individuals to also[...]. Don't they contribute to politicians?

Information, probably yes, money would be useless. Anything over € 50 must be reported and could not be used for personal gain.

Cheers,
Bart

[Robert Roaldi]

Here's a 30 min podcast from 2015 on the decreasing costs of solar power from NPR's Planet Money https://www.npr.org/2019/08/14/751234092/episode-616-how-solar-got-cheap.

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

Here's a 30 min podcast from 2015 on the decreasing costs of solar power from NPR's Planet Money https://www.npr.org/2019/08/14/751234092/episode-616-how-solar-got-cheap.

30 minutes to deliver something that could be summarized in 0.3 seconds: solar is getting cheaper (ok, maybe the whole second)

[Chris Kern]

Remember, we have a relatively direct method of electing our members of parliament with a simple kind of direct majority vote, and we the people can choose to elect someone on a low position in the rankings (preference of the party), with a preferential vote. If enough people vote for a person, then that person will get a position in parliament, nothing that his/her party can do about that. We also do not have to register as someone going to vote for one party or another, we decide in the voting booth, who and from what party (currently, 14 different parties have a seat in what you could compare with your Congres). Every citizen can vote for anyone on the lists with all candidates.

If your intention here is to make a comparison with the way voters in the United States select members of the House of Representatives and the Senate, you appear to be conflating the intra-party primary elections, where voters who have chosen to identify themselves with one party or another select that party's candidate, with general elections, in which voters, regardless of party affiliation or lack thereof, elect the individuals who actually will serve as their representatives in Congress.  All states have procedures for voter registration—often associated with the procedures by which they grant drivers' licenses—but there is no requirement in any of them for the voter to identify a party affiliation; the purpose of the registration process is to verify residence and thus eligibility to receive a license or to vote.  (In both cases, eligibility is determined by the respective states, not the national government.)

[Bart_van_der_Wolf]

If your intention here is to make a comparison with the way voters in the United States select members of the House of Representatives and the Senate, you appear to be conflating the intra-party primary elections, where voters who have chosen to identify themselves with one party or another select that party's candidate, with general elections, in which voters, regardless of party affiliation or lack thereof, elect the individuals who actually will serve as their representatives in Congress.  All states have procedures for voter registration—often associated with the procedures by which they grant drivers' licenses—but there is no requirement in any of them for the voter to identify a party affiliation; the purpose of the registration process is to verify residence and thus eligibility to receive a license or to vote.  (In both cases, eligibility is determined by the respective states, not the national government.)

Hi Chris,

I was under the impression that for general elections one needed to register as Republican or Democrat (or Independent). Perhaps that only seems that way from the outside, because multiple elections (general and intra-party) are taking place at the same time, which would clear up something incomprehensible. Thanks.

Cheers,
Bart

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

... because multiple elections (general and intra-party) are taking place at the same time...

Last time I voted, it was not so. I assume it has never been. Nor it makes sense.

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

... If enough people vote for a person, then that person will get a position in parliament, nothing that his/her party can do about that....

The same here.

[RSL]

Though as we've seen for the past couple years, they try their best (or worst).

[Alan Goldhammer]

Hi Chris,

I was under the impression that for general elections one needed to register as Republican or Democrat (or Independent). Perhaps that only seems that way from the outside, because multiple elections (general and intra-party) are taking place at the same time, which would clear up something incomprehensible. Thanks.

Cheers,
Bart

You only need to choose party affiliation to vote in the primary election for that party's candidates.  If you register as an independent you can vote in the general election but not the primary elections unless the state has an open primary system such as California where all party candidates run against one another and the two top vote recipients move on to the general election.  I believe there are several other states that operate under a similar model.  Minor parties that run candidates for President usually have a national convention where they pick the candidate and have meet certain state qualifications to get on the ballot.  On occasions the party will not be on the ballot in all 50 states.

[Chris Kern]

Perhaps that only seems that way from the outside, because multiple elections (general and intra-party) are taking place at the same time

Actually, they are sequential, not simultaneous.  The intra-party primary elections take place months before a national election.  The dates of their respective primary elections are set by the states; the date of the national election is set by Congress.  Each state is responsible for conducting its own part of the national election, subject to certain federal constitutional and statutory requirements.

To appear on either a primary or general election ballot within a state, a candidate must collect a certain number of signatures on a petition from the residents of that state.  There is no requirement that the candidate identify with any party.  The number of signatures to qualify to appear on a ballot varies from state to state.  One important function of the party organizations in each state is to collect the signatures necessary to put the party's candidate, if it has one—typically an individual selected in a primary election—on the general election ballot.

[Alan Klein]

Hi Chris,

I was under the impression that for general elections one needed to register as Republican or Democrat (or Independent). Perhaps that only seems that way from the outside, because multiple elections (general and intra-party) are taking place at the same time, which would clear up something incomprehensible. Thanks.

Cheers,
Bart

In New York and now New Jersey where I currently live, I've never registered with a particular party.  Since both states are "closed" primary systems, I cannot vote in primaries for either Democrat or Republican party.  I can only vote in the general election.  Each state sets its own rules.  Here are some of the differences.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primary_election

[Alan Klein]

Can't speak for other countries, but in the Netherland, all parliamentarians get a fixed salary, currently € 120,000 , from the government, the leaders get an additional amount. The political parties get a government subsidy in line with their size in the chambers, and the parties get annual contribution money from their members, and they can get some donations that need to be disclosed by name of the donator if above € 4,500 (that info is published annually). The total amount of donations, and income from giving courses and such is a modest fraction of the total annual party income.

The reason for the government salary payments and subsidies, is to reduce the risk of perverse incentives.

BTW, everything is taxed (e.g. income-tax) so the amounts are gross amounts, not net.

You kept avoiding my questions so you forced me to look it up.  The Dutch use professional lobbyists to influence parliament just our lobbyists influence Congress in America. So stop trying to make it seem like we're corrupt here in the USA when you do the same thing.  You have a habit of ignoring what your country does while criticising others for doing the same thing your country does.  Here's one of their ads.
https://publicmatters.nl/en/dienst/public-affairs-lobby/
In any case, petitioning the government for redress is written into our Constitution.  How else would individuals and organizations get the government to represent them and do what they would like. 


As an aside, the Dutch spend more money than any other country except Great Britain to lobby IN AMERICA!!!!  Yo really need to stop the spin Bart.
https://www.dutchnews.nl/news/2009/08/the_netherlands_is_major_us_lo/

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

^^^ 🤣🤣🤣

[Robert Roaldi]

30 minutes to deliver something that could be summarized in 0.3 seconds: solar is getting cheaper (ok, maybe the whole second)

The actual discussion was about what has changed in the industry to cause this to happen, sort of a case study. It's not an uninteresting story, but if you happen not to be interested in it and don't want to listen, that's perfectly ok. It's not mandatory.

[kers]

As an aside, the Dutch spend more money than any other country except Great Britain to lobby IN AMERICA!!!!  ...
https://www.dutchnews.nl/news/2009/08/the_netherlands_is_major_us_lo/

That is not a correct review. ... read again...
also this is a different kind of lobby... i read we mainly promote our country for attracting tourists...
We do not have a NRA type of lobby that spends millions of € to promote one party or candidate for singing their tune. It is (naturally)not allowed.

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

... We do not have a NRA type of lobby that spends millions of € to promote one party or candidate...

To put things into perspective: NRA spent on average $2-3 millions in the last 20 years on lobbying, about $5 million in the last two years. That pales in comparison to the Top 20 spenders.

credit: Center for Responsive Politics

https://www.opensecrets.org/lobby/top.php?indexType=s&showYear=2019

[Bart_van_der_Wolf]

You kept avoiding my questions so you forced me to look it up.  The Dutch use professional lobbyists to influence parliament just our lobbyists influence Congress in America.

Where did I say that there were no lobbyists? All I pointed out is that there are no large sums of money exchanged for favors from members of parliament.

So stop trying to make it seem like we're corrupt here in the USA when you do the same thing.

If you have evidence that people are bribed, please do share.

In any case, petitioning the government for redress is written into our Constitution.  How else would individuals and organizations get the government to represent them and do what they would like.

I have no idea what that is supposed to mean.

As an aside, the Dutch spend more money than any other country except Great Britain to lobby IN AMERICA!!!!  Yo really need to stop the spin Bart.
https://www.dutchnews.nl/news/2009/08/the_netherlands_is_major_us_lo/

Huh? I've heard that we're the world's 2nd largest exporter of food. Interesting, like promoting vacations, but it has little to do with corrupting politicians for their reelection campaign or to change their position on state affairs.

Cheers,
Bart

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

... I have no idea what that is supposed to mean...

Obviously.

Otherwise you wouldn’t continue to call a legal, constitutional activity “bribing” and “corruption.”

[Alan Klein]

The actual discussion was about what has changed in the industry to cause this to happen, sort of a case study. It's not an uninteresting story, but if you happen not to be interested in it and don't want to listen, that's perfectly ok. It's not mandatory.

I didn't have time to listen for 30 minutes.  But from what I've learned about solar, the main additional cost they never tell you about is that you need fossil fuel plants to backup the power when the sun doesn;t shine.  The fossil fuel cost is not included in the cost to society.  They only tell you what the savings is to the individual solar home user.   This is the main reason Germans pay 2 1/2 times what American pay per KWH even though 40% of their power is from renewables.