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Author Topic: A7r4 announcement today  (Read 21931 times)

shadowblade

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A7r4 announcement today
« on: July 16, 2019, 06:38:37 am »

https://www.sonyalpharumors.com/last-minute-wild-camera-rumors-one-of-the-new-cameras-is-the-a7riv/

This came a bit earlier than expected - the A7r3's less than two years old, and the A7s3 isn't even out yet. I guess that means Sony has come out with enough cumulative improvements to justify a new model.

Despite primarily shooting cityscapes, landscapes and other things not particularly taxing on the autofocus, I'm actually l more interested in the A9II than this. Pumping the resolution to 60-70MP will only eke out incremental gains - atmospheric effects and other non-sensor-related issues tend to kill resolution at this level, so there are few subjects which would benefit from this and can'tbe stitched (for even better results). Obviously, it's a different case if you're shooting studio portraits, advertising work or art reproduction, particularly if Sony's made their next generation of bodies more flash-friendly. It would take something else - an extra stop or two of DR, a global shutter, several stops of improved noise and DR at mid-ISOs (1600-6400), for instance - to make it particularly compelling.

If the A9II manages 36-45MP while retaining top-tier AF, and particularly if it has a global shutter (although I doubt that's ready for the coming generation of cameras) it would be much more interesting than an A7r4 which is just an A7r3 with 20-30 extra megapixels. It would allow the same camera to function as both a primary landscape camera and top-tier wildlife/action camera, simplifying the logistics of mixed-shooting trips. Of course, that depends what else the A7r4 brings other than increased resolution, and how many of these features are unlikely to also show up in the A9Ii. At the moment, the A7r3 and A9 make a great combination. The next generation could well consolidate both roles into one body - whether it's the A9II or A7r4 which fulfils this role better remains to be seen.

That said, I'm very interested in what they've come up with in terms of new technology. The 42MP sensor is getting on 4 years old now, so the new camera will, presumably, use a new sensor based on updated technology. Anything that shows up here has a good chance of also showing up in other new models.
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Martin Kristiansen

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Re: A7r4 announcement today
« Reply #1 on: July 16, 2019, 07:15:03 am »

Hmm. I don’t think I will upgrade my A7Riii to the iv either. I’m in agreement with you. I have one client that really wants 40MP and I don’t think me having 60MP will make a difference.

I am more interested in the A9ii. I’m happy with the A9 but kind of interested in how they will make that better. That could tempt me. I’m currently fighting the urge to buy the 200 to 600mm lens. It won’t make me money, I don’t need it, but I want it. Dam.
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shadowblade

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Re: A7r4 announcement today
« Reply #2 on: July 16, 2019, 08:45:14 am »

Hmm. I don’t think I will upgrade my A7Riii to the iv either. I’m in agreement with you. I have one client that really wants 40MP and I don’t think me having 60MP will make a difference.

I am more interested in the A9ii. I’m happy with the A9 but kind of interested in how they will make that better. That could tempt me. I’m currently fighting the urge to buy the 200 to 600mm lens. It won’t make me money, I don’t need it, but I want it. Dam.

That's if all it brings is 20-30 extra megapixels. It all hinges on what else it brings, how good its AF is (better or worse than current A9) and, probably most importantly, which of its features will be unique to the A7r4 and not also featured in the A9II.

In other words, which one of the two does a better job of substituting for the other.
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elliot_n

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Re: A7r4 announcement today
« Reply #3 on: July 16, 2019, 09:27:37 am »

Just give me the pixels.

Is this for real? Exciting!

Hopefully Nikon will follow soon.
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shadowblade

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Re: A7r4 announcement today
« Reply #4 on: July 16, 2019, 09:34:46 am »

New 61MP sensor, apparently.

I wonder if this is the same 60MP sensor they announced a few months back (along with a 36MP 'super sensor') or if it's a different/related, Sony-only premium version.
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Martin Kristiansen

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Re: A7r4 announcement today
« Reply #5 on: July 16, 2019, 10:02:37 am »

That's if all it brings is 20-30 extra megapixels. It all hinges on what else it brings, how good its AF is (better or worse than current A9) and, probably most importantly, which of its features will be unique to the A7r4 and not also featured in the A9II.

In other words, which one of the two does a better job of substituting for the other.

I would assume, but it’s not guaranteed of course, that the A7riv will be targeted as a high res body and the A9ii, when it comes, as a high performance body. I want the high performance body. That’s all I a, saying. No need to complicate it.
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shadowblade

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Re: A7r4 announcement today
« Reply #6 on: July 16, 2019, 10:33:30 am »

I would assume, but it’s not guaranteed of course, that the A7riv will be targeted as a high res body and the A9ii, when it comes, as a high performance body. I want the high performance body. That’s all I a, saying. No need to complicate it.

The thing is, assuming you shoot more than one thing, at some point, both AF performance and resolution run into diminishing returns, and you're better off getting some of the other instead of just more and more of one.

If the A9II has 42MP, 20fps and super AF, does it deliver enough resolution that the A7r4's 61MP become a marginal benefit, with other features being the key points of difference?

Or, if the A7r4 has 61MP, 10fps and an AF system that's better than the A9 (if not nearly as good as the A9II), is the AF system then capable enough that it is no longer a major distinguishing feature between the two bodies for anyone who's not trying to track individual bees in a swarm, with other factors (e.g. DR or high ISO performance) being the main differences?
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elliot_n

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Re: A7r4 announcement today
« Reply #7 on: July 16, 2019, 10:35:59 am »

61MP

$3,500

September launch.
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davidgp

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Re: A7r4 announcement today
« Reply #8 on: July 16, 2019, 10:48:40 am »

I’m surprised by the price... now I understand why the previous model has always discounts.

Dual UHS-II slot, at least now both slots are equal.

Real-time eye tracking in video mode looks interesting.

Brochure: http://sonyglobal.akamaized.net/is/content/gwtvid/pdf/2019/ILCE-7RM4/brochure-ilce7rm4.pdf

I will probably stick to my A7r II for a while...

sbay

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Re: A7r4 announcement today
« Reply #9 on: July 16, 2019, 10:53:42 am »

Quote
Additionally, the new camera features an evolved Pixel Shift Multi Shooting[xi] mode that composites up to 16 full-resolution images. In this mode, the camera precisely shifts the sensor in 1 or 0.5-pixel increments to capture 16 separate pixel-shifted images containing a total of 963.2 million pixels worth of data then composited into a 240.8 million pixels (19008 x 12672 pixels) image using the “Imaging Edge™” desktop application

Any thoughts on the pixel shift capability?

TonyVentourisPhotography

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Re: A7r4 announcement today
« Reply #10 on: July 16, 2019, 11:13:02 am »

16 images.... and people complain about artifacts in the Olympus shifting.  16 images seems a bit much at just half pixel.  That is interesting.  I know on the Olympus, file dimensions bloat to 80mp...but real world resolution is more interesting line with 50mp...not 80.  I’m going to assume the Sony is doing something similar, so expected results may be more in line with 140mp... just with pixel dimensions higher.  Stability will surely be needed to extract the maximum out of this.  60mp should be plenty for a lot of applications though. 

Things are getting interesting in the high megapixels world.  I’ve been waiting and watching...most likely to end up with a mirrorless medium format from my current one.  I’m still holding out to see if canon puts out a great system that would work well with its ts lenses and the r adapter with the polarizer built in.  This Sony looks interesting...but I haven’t liked the Sony body’s or interface at all any time I’ve used them. 
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hubell

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Re: A7r4 announcement today
« Reply #11 on: July 16, 2019, 12:05:11 pm »

Any thoughts on the pixel shift capability?

Unfortunately, it still appears to lag WAY behind what Panasonic has done with the S1R. It apparently uses the same approach of capturing multiple, separate raw files and then requiring you to assemble them after the fact in the crappy Sony software. Lots of motion artifacts if there is anything moving in the files. I believe Panasonic assembles the files in camera as a single raw file and uses very sophisticated computational photography algorithms to mitigate artifacts from motion.

chez

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Re: A7r4 announcement today
« Reply #12 on: July 16, 2019, 12:26:42 pm »

Unfortunately, it still appears to lag WAY behind what Panasonic has done with the S1R. It apparently uses the same approach of capturing multiple, separate raw files and then requiring you to assemble them after the fact in the crappy Sony software. Lots of motion artifacts if there is anything moving in the files. I believe Panasonic assembles the files in camera as a single raw file and uses very sophisticated computational photography algorithms to mitigate artifacts from motion.

Personally I'd rather have the combining be done on a computer rather than in camera. I would think you have tons more leeway on a computer with way more memory and way more processing power. I can see third party software being developed which eliminates the need to use Sony software.
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hubell

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Re: A7r4 announcement today
« Reply #13 on: July 16, 2019, 12:57:20 pm »

Personally I'd rather have the combining be done on a computer rather than in camera. I would think you have tons more leeway on a computer with way more memory and way more processing power. I can see third party software being developed which eliminates the need to use Sony software.

Well, the reality today is that you have neither: it's not well implemented in camera, and there is no useful software available from anyone that uses sophisticated computational photography algorithms to seamlessly and simply combine the images AND eliminate motion artifacts after the fact. Sony has the financial and R&D muscle and should have delivered it. Panasonic did it. Why not Sony?

faberryman

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Re: A7r4 announcement today
« Reply #14 on: July 16, 2019, 01:00:12 pm »

Well, the reality today is that you have neither: it's not well implemented in camera, and there is no useful software available from anyone that uses sophisticated computational photography algorithms to seamlessly and simply combine the images AND eliminate motion artifacts after the fact. Sony has the financial and R&D muscle and should have delivered it. Panasonic did it. Why not Sony?
Let the whining begin.
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Martin Kristiansen

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Re: A7r4 announcement today
« Reply #15 on: July 16, 2019, 01:06:38 pm »

Let the whining begin.

😂 And no one has even seen the camera yet. Anyway. I can stand apart from it since I don’t care about the pixel shift in the slightest so perhaps I’m being unfair as not seeing this as an issue.
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chez

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Re: A7r4 announcement today
« Reply #16 on: July 16, 2019, 01:08:19 pm »

Well, the reality today is that you have neither: it's not well implemented in camera, and there is no useful software available from anyone that uses sophisticated computational photography algorithms to seamlessly and simply combine the images AND eliminate motion artifacts after the fact.

You should add YET to your statement. I see all manufactures incorporating this feature and we'll see software available from multiple manufactures to combine these images...just like we see HDR software and image scaling / sharpening software etc...

Give me the raw details so I have a choice of what I use to process them rather than being stuck having the camera process the images. Choice is always good.
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hubell

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Re: A7r4 announcement today
« Reply #17 on: July 16, 2019, 01:33:10 pm »

You should add YET to your statement. I see all manufactures incorporating this feature and we'll see software available from multiple manufactures to combine these images...just like we see HDR software and image scaling / sharpening software etc...

Give me the raw details so I have a choice of what I use to process them rather than being stuck having the camera process the images. Choice is always good.

YET? One thing I know is to never buy a camera (or anything for that matter) based upon the hope/wish that some feature will be available in the future. If it's not available now, it's best to assume it will never be available.
As for "choice" as to how I can assemble 4 or 16 raw files into a single raw file with no or minimal motion artifacts, no thanks. I personally have no interest in it. I want someone else to figure out how to do it perfectly through sophisticated software. If it's well implemented, it should be better than anything I can do. It has nothing to do with aesthetic vision, like how an HDR photograph is assembled.

SrMi

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Re: A7r4 announcement today
« Reply #18 on: July 16, 2019, 02:57:05 pm »

Let the whining begin.

Can I mention "lossless compressed RAW format" ;-)?
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Jim Kasson

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Re: A7r4 announcement today
« Reply #19 on: July 16, 2019, 03:09:27 pm »

Can I mention "lossless compressed RAW format" ;-)?

Of course. On a related point...

They're talking about 15 stops of DR. If they mean EDR, they won't be able to do that with 14-bit precision. If they go to 16-bit, that will break the current craw compression.

Jim
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