A7r4 announcement today

[capital]

I guess I am answering my own question here, it seems the difference is that Sony is a different pixel shift usage case, it needs 16 samples since it does not deBayer the output. It instead captures full color at all photosites, including the half and full steps--this is contrasted to the Olympus/Panasonic which appear to still need to deBayer the output. undersample the spatial array by a half pixel. (I think my confusion is that I thought I remember reading that Olympus/Panasonic encoded to be read by standard raw converters.)

Practical purposes? I think the Sony is going overboard with 16 samples as the 8 samples shows off a nice image resolution bump. It is too bad you can't elect to do 8 samples.

Here is a cartoon of it, would have preferred a different presentation though...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lwwzM81k5VE

Is there any description of how the camera takes the 16 shots in multi shot mode?

It seems that Olympus and Panasonic are accomplishing the "same" hi-res mode with only 8 shots, whereas this new Sony requires 16. What is the engineering rationale? etc...

[shadowblade]

I think the new pixel shift mode is a combination of two modes.

With current Sony pixel shift, the camera takes four frames, offset by a full pixel, to generate full RGB data for each poxel.

With current Phase One, etc. pixel shift, the camera takes four frames offset by half a pixel, generating Bayer data at twice the resolution (four times the pixel count).

The new Sony method uses 16 shots to generate full RGB data for every pixel at twice the resolution of the base sensor.

I suspect you'll be able to select either one (full RGB data or increased resolution), or both pixel shift methods - choosing one requires four frames, choosing both requires 4x4 = 16 frames.

[capital]

I amended my response, it seems that Olympus/Panasonic still don't need to use a proprietary raw converter to render the hi res shots even though they are getting full color. Would be good to understand how the data is packed to allow something that Sony seems unwilling (or unable to do). As the casual information out there doesn't explain this satisfactorily.

[32BT]

I think the new pixel shift mode is a combination of two modes.

...

I suspect you'll be able to select either one (full RGB data or increased resolution), or both pixel shift methods - choosing one requires four frames, choosing both requires 4x4 = 16 frames.

Very likely, and hopefully correct. It would at least provide some method to the madness. For those seeking raw output: I think stacking 16 images straight up will provide infinitely more pixel integrity than any gain in resolution will. Perhaps that's how we should look at the 16 image shift: increases SNR while the quasi resolution gain is a bonus.

[Tony Jay]

I have not seen that assertion from Sony. Do you have a link?

Watch any video of Sony's official launch of A7RIV - they directly make a claim of 15 stops of DR...

[shadowblade]

I believe that a majority of serious sports shooters would be actively unhappy about a 36mp sensor.

Managing this amount of data would be essentially an issue with little value for real world applications.

Cheers,
Bernard

There are an equally large number of wildlife shooters and mixed media photojournalists who would disagree. 36-42MP gives you much more room to crop when shooting small or distant subjects, while that sort of resolution is needed for 8k video output, which is starting to emerge as the new high-end standard.

If the technology's there to put an AF system exceeding the A9 into a 36-42MP sensor, while retaining (and probably improving on) high-ISO output quality, there's little reason not to do it. It's been more than two years since the A9 - I'd expect progress in every area of performance, resolution included. And that 36MP sensor announced earlier sounds suspiciously A9II-like in its capabilities (although it has been made available to all manufacturers - the actual A9II may have an improved, 'premium' Sony-only version).

Besides, there's nothing stopping you shooting in sRAW or other reduced-resolution formats if you don't want or need large files. They'll even appear cleaner than native 24MP files.

[BernardLanguillier]

Sony could have included the a9 AF in the a7rIII or a7rIV but didn't.

Their marketing is obviously deciding to segregate capabilities based on target market segment, and I think that the main target segment for the a9 and a9II is clearly pro sports shooters, not wildlife shooters.

I could be wrong... but I don't think that I am.

We also know that Sony will not announce an a9II until November at the earliest since they won't want to blur the marketing message associated to the actual availability of the a7rIV with a competing launch.

This means that you won't be able to spend money for at least another 4 months, maybe 6 if you wait for actual a9II real world test results before buying.

Cheers,
Bernard

[Martin Kristiansen]

Sony could have included the a9 AF in the a7rIII or a7rIV but didn't.

Their marketing is obviously deciding to segregate capabilities based on target market segment, and I think that the main target segment for the a9 and a9II is clearly pro sports shooters, not wildlife shooters.

I could be wrong... but I don't think that I am.

We also know that Sony will not announce an a9II until November at the earliest since they won't want to blur the marketing message associated to the actual availability of the a7rIV with a competing launch.

This means that you won't be able to spend money for at least another 4 months, maybe 6 if you wait for actual a9II real world test results before buying.

Cheers,
Bernard

I would like to know who exactly is buying the A9.  I know wedding guys like it. Up to now the well heeled local wildlife shooters, rich enthusiasts mostly, didn’t like the Sony because of the lack of lenses. I imagine that has shifted now. The A9 is great for PR and events and who needs more than about 6MP for that. It’s mostly just for online newsletters and such.

I am actually considering the new A7R. Not for the MP but I like the WiFi tethering, better buttons, lock button on the over under dial is not insignificant, better EVF. I will wait and see what the A9 delivers. Then I will decide how the two cameras will work as a system. If the A9 goes to 36MP I will buy it and dump the A7R and buy a A6500 as a backup body. Cheap solution. I can’t make a decision on one body in isolation so no decision now.

[armand]

While for many, including me, the extra resolution is not that appealing there are some key improvements that will make the next A7iv significantly more interesting, the better buttons/ergonomics and the improved sealing. The latter was a significant weakness, at least in theory.

[Jim Kasson]

Just read on DPR “that '15 stops of DR' figure Sony is advertising is with downscaled, 8MP images”.

Regarding assertion question:
I have not read anywhere a disclaimer that 15 stops is with pixel shift only, hence I assume it is with regular shooting.

Thant makes the correction log2(sqrt() = 1.5 stops What's the noise floor that they're using? RN?

Jim

[chez]

A Sony microphone that uses hot shoe connection rather than a wire down the side. That’s useful. Continuous eye AF in video mode is really going to be useful. With the way things are going commercially anything that improves video is going to be good for me.

The reviewers I have watched on YouTube reading from a Sony hand out all say 15 stops of DR. I don’t think that’s surprising since the iii was not far off that. Personally for me the DR wars are pretty much over much like the MP wars but I know that’s not everyone’s opinion on the matter. Deeper grip might also please people, again I don’t care one way or another, I have picked raspberries for a living and if you can do that you can hold any FF camera ever made. Slightly better weather sealing around the battery compartment. I would be more enthusiastic but something to close off in front of the sensor when changing lenses. It’s winter where I live so I haven’t seen a cloud in two months and won’t get any rain until October but dust, loads of dust. I want dust sealing on the sensor. Minority view I know.

Better buttons they are also saying. That could be nice. The Z Nikon buttons have a much better feel than the buttons on my Sony cameras.  Better joystick. I haven’t actually found a use for the joystick so far. WiFi tethering, now that’s a thing I could like depending on transfer speeds. I shoot tethered a hell of a lot. Started with scsi all those years ago then various FireWire standards now USB. I’m sick of cables.  If the speed of transfer is good enough that could actually push me to upgrade.

Price is also really good for a camera of this level. That’s going to put pressure on Nikon and Canon on what they can charge when they bring out upgrades, which they will have to do at some point, especially Canon. It looks like a very solid upgrade all round.

The reduced price of the A7R3, which arguably is already a better camera than the Nikon or Canon cameras, will put huge downward pressures on the prices from CaNikon. Right now the A7R3 sits at $2,500.

[davidgp]

Sony could have included the a9 AF in the a7rIII or a7rIV but didn't.

Not really. A7r III or A7r IV use a "traditional" BSI sensor. A9 uses an Stacked-BSI sensor. This allows to read the sensor data at 60 fps and do the calculation of AF tracking without any evf lag. The rest of the system, LSI processor + normal processor in theory, or at least Sony says that, it is the same in all three cameras.

Increasing the resolution of the sensor while still being able to move the amount of data at 60fps it is going to be probably challenging (not meaning they can not do it, I think this is going to happen sooner or later).

For the A9 II in terms of improvement I can see several aspects they could do to make this camera interesting, while keeping the 24 Mpx. They could increase even the frame rate to 120 fps (to say a number), that will be probably allow them to follow with more precision the subject, maybe with a new LSI processor to keep up with the double amount of data per seconds. This new processor could even perform even more complex AF algorithms using "AI".

Increasing the speed they can extract data from the sensor like I'm saying in the previous case while even make the camera electronic shutter less prone to rolling shutter or to flicker effects due to lighting.

Of course, increasing resolution it is an option for them... also even better high ISO performance will be more interesting for sport photographers.

[chez]

I would like to know who exactly is buying the A9.  I know wedding guys like it. Up to now the well heeled local wildlife shooters, rich enthusiasts mostly, didn’t like the Sony because of the lack of lenses. I imagine that has shifted now. The A9 is great for PR and events and who needs more than about 6MP for that. It’s mostly just for online newsletters and such.

I am actually considering the new A7R. Not for the MP but I like the WiFi tethering, better buttons, lock button on the over under dial is not insignificant, better EVF. I will wait and see what the A9 delivers. Then I will decide how the two cameras will work as a system. If the A9 goes to 36MP I will buy it and dump the A7R and buy a A6500 as a backup body. Cheap solution. I can’t make a decision on one body in isolation so no decision now.

I believe there are way more wedding photographers buying the A9 than sports photographers. It will be a mistake to limit the mpix because a very small segment ( pro sports photographers ) don't want to deal with larger files.

[Martin Kristiansen]

Not really. A7r III or A7r IV use a "traditional" BSI sensor. A9 uses an Stacked-BSI sensor. This allows to read the sensor data at 60 fps and do the calculation of AF tracking without any evf lag. The rest of the system, LSI processor + normal processor in theory, or at least Sony says that, it is the same in all three cameras.

Increasing the resolution of the sensor while still being able to move the amount of data at 60fps it is going to be probably challenging (not meaning they can not do it, I think this is going to happen sooner or later).

For the A9 II in terms of improvement I can see several aspects they could do to make this camera interesting, while keeping the 24 Mpx. They could increase even the frame rate to 120 fps (to say a number), that will be probably allow them to follow with more precision the subject, maybe with a new LSI processor to keep up with the double amount of data per seconds. This new processor could even perform even more complex AF algorithms using "AI".

Increasing the speed they can extract data from the sensor like I'm saying in the previous case while even make the camera electronic shutter less prone to rolling shutter or to flicker effects due to lighting.

Of course, increasing resolution it is an option for them... also even better high ISO performance will be more interesting for sport photographers.

I know we are off subject but regarding the A9ii I heard about a thing called TSR being tested. It stands for total scene recognition and is some kind of more advanced AI than currently being used. Who knows

Anyway I am leaning more and more towards upgrading to the A7Riv. For now I really must resist the urge.

[shadowblade]

Sony could have included the a9 AF in the a7rIII or a7rIV but didn't.

Their marketing is obviously deciding to segregate capabilities based on target market segment, and I think that the main target segment for the a9 and a9II is clearly pro sports shooters, not wildlife shooters.

I could be wrong... but I don't think that I am.

We also know that Sony will not announce an a9II until November at the earliest since they won't want to blur the marketing message associated to the actual availability of the a7rIV with a competing launch.

This means that you won't be able to spend money for at least another 4 months, maybe 6 if you wait for actual a9II real world test results before buying.

Cheers,
Bernard

They couldn't have included it on the A7r3 because that camera uses an older sensor design, unable to support it. The A7r4 uses a new sensor, which has been stated to include real-time tracking by Sony and which appears to match the A9 in capability in at least one report.

Sports photographers make up a tiny minority of A9 shooters. They sell far more to wedding shooters, photojournalists and other photojournalist types (e.g. event, live music and live theatre photographers), rich amateurs wanting the newest and fanciest gadget out there, and will have a growing chunk of wildlife enthusiasts now that they're expanding their supertele range. Sports photographers and the Olympics may be their showcase,  but are far from their biggest and most important customers.

Besides, Sony, unlike Canon, doesn't have much of a history of segregating capabilities for the sake of market segmentation. Any technology or new capability can show up in any camera, depending on when it's ready. Animal eye AF first showed up in the A7r3, when the A9 is more of a wildlife camera. The A7r3 works better with mechanical shutter than the A9, when the A9 is more likely to be used in roles that actually call for it. The A7III has better AF and a more advanced (if lower resolution) sensor than the much more expensive A7r3.

Besides, they already have a suitable new sensor, and it's 36MP (it's unlikely that a premium version dedicated to Sony's flagship action camera will have less than this sensor, which is being sold to everyone). The A7r4 went from 42 to 61MP. 24 to 36MP is a similar increase, and would reflect the increased data bandwidth and improved sensor design over the same period of time.

I have no need to spend money on a new body just yet anyway. The A7r3 works fine as it is - almost anything I shoot that can benefit from 61MP can also be stitched, for even better final output. If the A9II has at least 36MP and even better AF and high ISO capability, I'll be seriously looking that as a do-everything body to cover both landscape/cityscape and action work. Doubly so if it has a global shutter, but I doubt that's ready yet (although Sony has surprised me before - I expected A7r3-level AF for the third generation of full-frame mirrorless cameras, with A9-level, SLR-matching AF only coming in the next generation, i.e. those being released now). But I'm more interested in new superteles, a better 70-200/2.8 (the current one is a disappointment which I refused to buy) and some super-sharp f/4 zooms, which Sony should develop now that the f/2.8 zoom lineup for the journalist/wedding crowd is complete.

[Dan Wells]

Couldn't a "small raw" capability solve the sports shooters' needs? Many cameras do that these days (although some lose speed in the process).

[Jim Kasson]

Watch any video of Sony's official launch of A7RIV - they directly make a claim of 15 stops of DR...

The question is not whether they said 15 stops of DR, but rather is it achieved in single shot mode. Of course , there's the larger question of the protocol and whether they scales the measurements to some arbitrary, non-native resolution.

Jim

[Jim Kasson]

Not really. A7r III or A7r IV use a "traditional" BSI sensor. A9 uses an Stacked-BSI sensor. This allows to read the sensor data at 60 fps and do the calculation of AF tracking without any evf lag. The rest of the system, LSI processor + normal processor in theory, or at least Sony says that, it is the same in all three cameras.

When reading out reduced resolution data for AF use, the a9 can go considerably faster than 60 fps.

https://blog.kasson.com/the-last-word/sony-a9-dynamic-battery-draw/

However, the a9 is unable to read out the entire sensor at 60 fps.

Jim

[Tony Jay]

The question is not whether they said 15 stops of DR, but rather is it achieved in single shot mode. Of course , there's the larger question of the protocol and whether they scales the measurements to some arbitrary, non-native resolution.

Jim

Of course! We will have to wait and see...

[SrMi]

Of course! We will have to wait and see...

Sony writes for a7rIV: 15-stop dynamic range under Sony's test condition.

Sony's a7rIII page:

A new front-end LSI and BIONZ X™ boost processing speed and are teamed with the Exmor R™ sensor to deliver up to 15-stop dynamic range at low ISO sensitivity for stills, enabling richer tonal expression.

Sony's a7rIV page:

The latest BIONZ X image processing engine works in tandem with front-end LSI to maximize high-resolution sensor performance while achieving up to 15-stop dynamic range at low ISO sensitivity.