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Author Topic: Politically Correct and Expensive Hiring Of University Teachers  (Read 9017 times)

JoeKitchen

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Re: Politically Correct and Expensive Hiring Of University Teachers
« Reply #60 on: July 02, 2019, 09:42:13 pm »

Only successful in that I had a good career. ;)  Both daughters went to public schools in Bethesda, but our schools are very good in terms of academic achievement.

I was wondering that.  If you lived in DC, I would almost certainly expect that you sent your kids to private school.  Bethesda, up in the air, and probably a still better school district then some private schools. 
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Alan Goldhammer

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Re: Politically Correct and Expensive Hiring Of University Teachers
« Reply #61 on: July 02, 2019, 09:42:40 pm »

What do you see between men and women's photography?
Interesting topic.  Margaret Bourke-White and Dorthea Lange come to mind in the 1930s as top notch photographers. 
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James Clark

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Re: Politically Correct and Expensive Hiring Of University Teachers
« Reply #62 on: July 02, 2019, 09:43:33 pm »

To be honest, I don't really pay attention to the quality of the average hobbyist, nor what the average female vs male is producing. 

You have to remember as a professional, I am always looking up to those that are better then me.  Probably the main reason why I (and other professional artists) am never really happy with my work.  I am not going to analyze someone not as a good as me, since that will not teach me anything.  So, with this, I cant say.  Plus, would you really want a professional looking down at your work with a sense of superiority?  If I did that to you, unasked, you would think I am a condescending jerk, so I try not to critique those who do this as a hobby.  This about enjoyment for you, for me it is my life's work. 

Insofar as other professionals, I almost never think about the gender of the person who shot the image.  A great image is a great image regardless of gender.  If I see a great commisioned architectural image, my response is always the same.  Pure unadulterated hatred of that photographer, with the exceptions of my ideals. 

"How dare the photographer get hired to shoot that job without me even being asked so much as to bid on it.  I need to figure out his/her clients and take that person down!" 

My wife feels the same way when looking at great food photography.  I have yet to meet any successful photographer who does not think this way.

Understand that I say this without judgment, but I can't image a more foreign way of thinking that what you've outlined above.  :)
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James Clark

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Re: Politically Correct and Expensive Hiring Of University Teachers
« Reply #63 on: July 02, 2019, 09:46:15 pm »

Interesting topic.  Margaret Bourke-White and Dorthea Lange come to mind in the 1930s as top notch photographers.

Not to distract from what I agree is an interesting question, but I couldn't get back here in time to add on to the nurse/STEM conversation, and I remembered something interesting.  Studies suggest that female doctors deliver better outcomes than male doctors.  I wonder how that reconciles with the Joe's claims about the end of the bell curve and the assumed male-oriented focus on the sciences?  Certainly there's an aspect of "human care" to it, but why the discrepancy between doctors and nurses as far as the perception of the "appropriate" career for a specific gender?
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Politically Correct and Expensive Hiring Of University Teachers
« Reply #64 on: July 02, 2019, 09:51:22 pm »

James,  bedside manners.

James Clark

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Re: Politically Correct and Expensive Hiring Of University Teachers
« Reply #65 on: July 02, 2019, 09:52:48 pm »

James,  bedside manners.

 ;D.   (But there's probably something to that...)
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JoeKitchen

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Re: Politically Correct and Expensive Hiring Of University Teachers
« Reply #66 on: July 02, 2019, 09:56:16 pm »

Understand that I say this without judgment, but I can't image a more foreign way of thinking that what you've outlined above.  :)

There was a great documentary on JD Salinger a few years back.  It mentioned how he always encouraged other artists except for other writers (before he became a recluse).  Same exact reason why.  Other writers are competition, painters are not.  I am on friendly grounds with other architectural photographers, and consider a couple to be good friends.  But I would steal their clients in a heartbeat, and they would of mine.  It's just a fact of life with being in business. 

Insofar as never being pleased with my work, this is universal amongst all pros I talk to, especially those in the higher end.  I study my competitors' work, especially those better then me.  I spend hours breaking down images and trying to figure out how to apply them to mine.  And since these images are better then mine, when I look at my work it never measures up.  Even the top end guys compare their body of work to the now dead legions of the past. 

Ezra Stoller pretty much founded architectural photography and is one of the most well known photographers in the genre.  I am sure the top end guys in the world sit back and wonder, will my work be respected on the same level as Stoller after I am gone. 

There was even a paper on this unusual aspect of artists a few years back.  You should hear my wife and I go back and forth criticizing our own work (like I critique mine and she hers) just for the other to say, "knock it off, you just got hired by (insert some extremely high-end architect or food client)." 
« Last Edit: July 02, 2019, 11:52:38 pm by JoeKitchen »
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Politically Correct and Expensive Hiring Of University Teachers
« Reply #67 on: July 02, 2019, 09:56:58 pm »

;D.   (But there's probably something to that...)

As Rob already explained, a lovely nurse will raise you from the dead and lift your spirits (and not only that).

JoeKitchen

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Re: Politically Correct and Expensive Hiring Of University Teachers
« Reply #68 on: July 02, 2019, 09:57:45 pm »

Not to distract from what I agree is an interesting question, but I couldn't get back here in time to add on to the nurse/STEM conversation, and I remembered something interesting.  Studies suggest that female doctors deliver better outcomes than male doctors.  I wonder how that reconciles with the Joe's claims about the end of the bell curve and the assumed male-oriented focus on the sciences?  Certainly there's an aspect of "human care" to it, but why the discrepancy between doctors and nurses as far as the perception of the "appropriate" career for a specific gender?

The end of the bell curve I have mentioned has nothing to do with quality, only interests. 

Quality is something unrelated and not anything I happen to have read anything on, so I have no idea.  ???
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Alan Klein

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Re: Politically Correct and Expensive Hiring Of University Teachers
« Reply #69 on: July 02, 2019, 10:02:50 pm »

Interesting topic.  Margaret Bourke-White and Dorthea Lange come to mind in the 1930s as top notch photographers. 

I wasn't referring to the top end photographers or how good they were.  Rather I was wondering whether the average male photographer's photos are different than the female's and in what way?  Is that because of nature or nurture? 

JoeKitchen

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Re: Politically Correct and Expensive Hiring Of University Teachers
« Reply #70 on: July 02, 2019, 10:08:47 pm »

I wasn't referring to the top end photographers or how good they were.  Rather I was wondering whether the average male photographer's photos are different than the female's and in what way?  Is that because of nature or nurture?

I would say no, although genres tend to have inherent visual traits that "could" be deemed masculine or feminine.  Architectural photography is all about geometry and how spaces interact with each other.  So a good architectural photographer is in tune with this.  Photography for interior designers though is all about colors, textures, patterns and furniture chooses.  Is one more male then the other?  Maybe, but then again I think that would be a stretch. 

Obviously if one wants work with architects, you better be in tune with the geometry.  If you want to work with interior designers, you need to be in tune with the color scheme and textures.  But I think this come does to more interests that dont rely on biological differences. 

I am a math guy, so I work better with architects.  Another "architectural" photographer I know was a painter, so he works best with interior designers.  How is this gender related or even is, no idea.  Perhaps I am being too specific with just looking at two genres really really close to each other as well. 
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Robert Roaldi

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Re: Politically Correct and Expensive Hiring Of University Teachers
« Reply #71 on: July 02, 2019, 10:27:24 pm »

I may be wrong, but I don't think any women have contributed to this topic yet.
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Politically Correct and Expensive Hiring Of University Teachers
« Reply #72 on: July 02, 2019, 10:31:43 pm »

I may be wrong, but I don't think any women have contributed to this topic yet.

Many apparently closeted ones did.

jeremyrh

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Re: Politically Correct and Expensive Hiring Of University Teachers
« Reply #73 on: July 03, 2019, 01:20:55 am »

I may be wrong, but I don't think any women have contributed to this topic yet.

Why would any woman hang around the Coffee Corner?
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LesPalenik

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Re: Politically Correct and Expensive Hiring Of University Teachers
« Reply #74 on: July 03, 2019, 03:15:51 am »

Why would any woman hang around the Coffee Corner?

To find a man of her dreams?
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Rob C

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Re: Politically Correct and Expensive Hiring Of University Teachers
« Reply #75 on: July 03, 2019, 04:14:36 am »

As Rob already explained, a lovely nurse will raise you from the dead and lift your spirits (and not only that).


And to think I thought nobody nemembered anything of mine!

You have restored my confidence.

;-)

Rob C

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Re: Politically Correct and Expensive Hiring Of University Teachers
« Reply #76 on: July 03, 2019, 05:15:39 am »

I wasn't referring to the top end photographers or how good they were.  Rather I was wondering whether the average male photographer's photos are different than the female's and in what way?  Is that because of nature or nurture?

The problem is, the huge majority of photography one sees is meaningless in the sense not of message but of content.

I don't think I subcribe very much to the concept of message in pictures - other than political cartoons or traffic signs, and warnings about quicksands and snakes.

Photography has two principal functions, to my mind: it can be used to sell something; it can be used to decorate somewhere.

As self-expression, if you remove it from the commercial side - and some commercial genres are entirely about the photographer's ability to express himself - then what do the majority of pix you see on the Internet have to tell you about their makers? Nothing, other than many fall into traps of manipulation, where that becomes the raison d'être of the entire output. Remember Cokin? Everybody who knew about them bought at least one and ruined many an otherwise good landscape. I ruined a pile of Lindos, Rhodes pictures using a friggin' tabac filter. Just as I once did some T&T ones using a polarizing filter. But it becomes a part of the learning process: simple is almost always best. Just as with lighting.

So that's where the problem lies with me vis-à-vis amateur images: what's their point? If the answer to that is that it is the photographer trying to teach himself something, then great, to him it has meaning and even possibly reward, but to others, usually nothing.

That written, please do not conflate it with the idea that some amateurs are not excellent photographers, because nothing could be further from the truth. Being a pro does not mean you are always the better photographer; yes, you may have gathered expertise in some areas, but even there, many others are invariably far better at it in your chosen genre.

Male or female? I have two favourite female photographers: Sarah Moon and Deborah Turbeville. I wouldn't say either are great technicians in the sense that you go wow! in seeing their skill in lighting etc. but for me, the charge is entirely in the feeling of the images and the femininity and mood they create out of whatever is there in front of them. Even the models they choose and they way they use them is so different to how the average male would use them - he would probably not even pick those girls in the first place. And almost certainly not get the same expressions on their faces. The proof of that pudding is that I can sit and look at their images for hours - and do - and never become bored.

Of the males, I guess it's Hans Feurer for his long lens ability to isolate and create a tiny world of beauty with just a face, a blur, some fabric and the set of amazing stylists it's been his luck to have known over the years. Try to do what he does without those bits of absolutely eclectic cloths and colours and you find that you can't. Then there's Peter Lindbergh. I don't know where the hell I am with that guy. I have his huge tome on "a different vision on fashion photography" and it both fascinates as disappoints me. So much blackness, so much gloom! BUT! look at the "making of" videos, and another Peter comes to life. Perhaps his medium is not really paper but film. Whilst the book now stays mainly on the shelf, the videos never bore me. Perhaps the videos bring back my own memories of working towards a picture, those wonderfully emotional few minutes where you know there is an outcome but not yet how to get to it. In so many real ways photography, with a model, is like a kind of brief love affair, which is why I can't stress enough how vital it is that the photographer be allowed to choose the short-list of girls for shoots. How can you create beauty from someone who leaves you cold - or worse? You still need that psychological turn-on. Otherwise, pass.

So how are the two genders different in photographic terms? The bottom line seems to be that female photographers share emotions with models as they strive towards their picture, whereas male photographers can't do that: they try to have the girl express what the photographer thinks of as his ideal kind of woman. Rather than play naturally in the same playground as the model, he has to invent a game for her to play in his.

The differences are entirely based on gender.

I don't see a male shooting 'em quite this way (attached pic by Deborah Turbeville.)

Rob
« Last Edit: July 03, 2019, 07:48:51 am by Rob C »
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jeremyrh

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Re: Politically Correct and Expensive Hiring Of University Teachers
« Reply #77 on: July 03, 2019, 05:23:23 am »

To find a man of her dreams?

Meanwhile, on Planet Earth ... :-)
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Rob C

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Re: Politically Correct and Expensive Hiring Of University Teachers
« Reply #78 on: July 03, 2019, 07:10:12 am »

Meanwhile, on Planet Earth ... :-)


It was always going to be difficult for the ladies of my generation: as with Russ, we were snapped up early.

Wonderful; best thing ever.

:-)

Alan Goldhammer

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Re: Politically Correct and Expensive Hiring Of University Teachers
« Reply #79 on: July 03, 2019, 08:09:26 am »

I may be wrong, but I don't think any women have contributed to this topic yet.
I've only counted a handful of women on LuLa judging by their names.
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