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Author Topic: Politically Correct and Expensive Hiring Of University Teachers  (Read 5722 times)

Alan Klein

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Re: Politically Correct and Expensive Hiring Of University Teachers
« Reply #100 on: July 03, 2019, 10:53:39 am »

Supreme Court justice Kavanaugh just hired an all-female staff to clerk for him. Is that going too far?  Aren't there any good male clerks? Is the pendulum swinging too far the other way?
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/ruth-bader-ginsburg-praises-brett-kavanaugh-and-reflects-on-gender-equality-georgetown-2019-07-02/

Alan Klein

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Re: Politically Correct and Expensive Hiring Of University Teachers
« Reply #101 on: July 03, 2019, 10:54:28 am »

Hmmm.  I wonder of he's going to share a beer or two with them?

James Clark

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Re: Politically Correct and Expensive Hiring Of University Teachers
« Reply #102 on: July 03, 2019, 10:55:42 am »

Hmmm.  I wonder of he's going to share a beer or two with them?

He likes beer.
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Politically Correct and Expensive Hiring Of University Teachers
« Reply #103 on: July 03, 2019, 10:58:20 am »

Why would any woman hang around the Coffee Corner?

The prove equality for equality sake?

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Politically Correct and Expensive Hiring Of University Teachers
« Reply #104 on: July 03, 2019, 11:04:51 am »

Why would you choose to hang out somewhere that you are constantly belittled, told you are only good for housekeeping, etc.?

Since I’ve never seen your photographs, if I told you the same, would you feel less manly or more feminine ?  ;)   :P

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Politically Correct and Expensive Hiring Of University Teachers
« Reply #105 on: July 03, 2019, 11:21:27 am »

A successful lawyer is telling his secretary about his new car.

And we assume that the secretary is female, right ?

Which makes us sexist and misogynist, right?

Or it makes us creatures with eyes and brains, with some elementary logic and statistical ability for a good measure?

https://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2017/03/06/chart-the-percentage-women-and-men-each-profession/GBX22YsWl0XaeHghwXfE4H/story.html

JoeKitchen

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Re: Politically Correct and Expensive Hiring Of University Teachers
« Reply #106 on: July 03, 2019, 11:55:02 am »

That's not the issue.

The issue is when the next logical step is claimed to be that women (or men) are therefore less suited to certain opportunities, and that trying to balance this inequity is simply a desire to bow at the altar of "political correctness." 

Joe's bell curves are nicely illustrative, but they are addressing the argument at the extremes, where perhaps these innate differences DO manifest into distinct differences.   Thing is, extreme circumstances make for bad law, or something along those lines.  The vast majority of us operate in the middle by definition, where even the bell curve enthusiasts are forced to admit that the differences in application are minor.  So when there's an initiative to get more women into STEM, for example, it's not addressing the outliers at the end (no one would have denied Stephen Hawking a spot on the podium in the interest of gender diversity), but rather the middle positions where institutional issues make the ratio 90/10 instead of a natural 45/55 or whatever.

This is just not the way that those bell curves should be looked at.  I would agree that for most interpretations, working in the extremes or only looking at them would not be correct.  But this situation is different and partly the reason why you are having a false interpretation of these curves is that I did not fulling explain them.  So lets post them again this time and describe what each side means.

When it comes to interest in work, working with people vs working with objects are opposites.  So, in the graph, the far left side of the curve are filled with people who really like working with people above all else.  The far right side are those whom really enjoy working with objects.  The middle are those benevolent souls who are not one way or the other, or maybe only by a bit.  As you can see, the graphs overlaps but are slightly off.  The female graph trends to the left and the male graph trends to the right. 

(By the way, if you have any doubt these slight differences exist biologically, it has been proven ... by studying females who were victims of Congenital Adrenal Hyperplasia, a situation were higher amount of male hormones were present during gestation, and comparing them to their unaffected sisters.  Since you are comparing two sisters whom were raised by the same parents in the same socialization, all factors are reduced greatly except biology.  So the differences have to be biological, especially if you find this to be the case across a sample of 125, which is how big the study was.  If you think 125 is small, for many medical studies it might be.  But we are talking about a group of people whom you can only be sure were affect by this by analyzing the embryonic fluid through out the pregnancy.  After birth, it is impossible to determine if someone was affect by CAH, and the fact is that not too many mothers would be open to constantly have their fluids tested.  So there are not a high number of known test subjects out there to look at.  Also, a properly sourced random sample of 30 will generate an accurate view of a population, so 125 is certainly a large enough group.) 

And in both extremes, the corresponding gender has a much greater representation then by how much the average is off by. 

Now, the question is what type of careers will fall towards either end and what towards the middle? 

You mention that since most of us fall in the middle, only looking at the extremes would not make sense.  I would agree with you if the only careers that existed were those at the extremes.  But what you fail to recognize is that most jobs fall in the middle too.  So for the most of us middle of the road people, on which the majority of both genders are, there are a very large amount of jobs that would fit the interests of the middle of the roaders.  So it is with these jobs most people find themselves in.  However, the jobs that are very people oriented or very object oriented are at the extremes and thus would only attract those at the extremes as well. 

Jobs like programming or nursing. 

So when looking at these jobs that fall at the extremes it makes perfect sense to think about those people at the extremes as filling them.  So, case in point, looking at the ends of the bell curves for interest when looking at jobs that also fall at those ends is the correct thing to do. 


In a response to you first statement about next logical steps, this is just simply not the case nor what I advocating.  As was pointed before, I am merely talking about interests and not ability.  They are unrelated and just because you may not be interested in doing something does not mean you will be bad at it, and of course vis versa.  So using this data as a reason to discriminate is just wrong and inappropriate.  This is not what I am advocating. 

I am merely pointing out a difference in interests exists between genders and that is probably the main reason for the disparities.  It is a result of purely innocent decisions made on a personal level in regards to what career path that individual wants to follow.  And to imply that in today's political correct world, were companies are bending over backwards to hire women at all costs but still can't fill the quotas, that there exist some underlying sexism keeping women back just makes no sense. 
« Last Edit: July 03, 2019, 12:05:28 pm by JoeKitchen »
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Chris Kern

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Re: Politically Correct and Expensive Hiring Of University Teachers
« Reply #107 on: July 03, 2019, 12:18:15 pm »

that has nothing to do with equal rights, which is an entirely separate issue and should never have been in doubt. Having different genders does no imply either has innate superiority: hell, most of the idiots I know are middle-aged white males.

Indeed.  The only completely reliable way to be certain an organization or field offers equal opportunities to both sexes is when it contains as many incompetent women as incompetent men.

JoeKitchen

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Re: Politically Correct and Expensive Hiring Of University Teachers
« Reply #108 on: July 03, 2019, 12:24:08 pm »

Which makes us sexist and misogynist, right?

Or it makes us creatures with eyes and brains, with some elementary logic and statistical ability for a good measure?

https://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2017/03/06/chart-the-percentage-women-and-men-each-profession/GBX22YsWl0XaeHghwXfE4H/story.html

This makes me think of another interesting study done by Harvard (or Yale, but one of the two) about a decade ago.  They wanted to see if putting a picture on your resume would increase the chances of getting called in for an interview.  What they found was quite striking.

If you are an average man, you are 25% more likely to get called in.  If you are very good looking though, you are 35% more likely.  Now if you are a woman, you are 25% less likely to called in with a picture, and if you are a very good looking woman 35% less likely. 

This was rather odd; the researcher thought there would be no difference between the genders.  So they decided to extend the research to figure out why this happened.  It is actually quite the simple explanation. 

It turns out that 95% of securities and assistant hiring managers are young women, and they are the first ones to look over resumes.  Since everyone likes eye candy, if a resume with a decent looking man came through, of course that one would be put in the pile for her boss to see, especially if he was really good looking.  Why rely on a picture when you can see the real deal in person.  Also, no one likes competition, so any resumes with good looking women were more likely to go into the reject pile. 
« Last Edit: July 03, 2019, 01:47:39 pm by JoeKitchen »
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Alan Klein

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Re: Politically Correct and Expensive Hiring Of University Teachers
« Reply #109 on: July 03, 2019, 02:40:36 pm »

Too many women have chased after a career to the point where it's too late biologically for them to take on the most important and fulfilling career available to them - being a mom.

LesPalenik

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Re: Politically Correct and Expensive Hiring Of University Teachers
« Reply #110 on: July 03, 2019, 02:59:16 pm »

Too many women have chased after a career to the point where it's too late biologically for them to take on the most important and fulfilling career available to them - being a mom.

Very true, however there are exceptions.

Ursula Gertrud von der Leyen, whom I mentioned in one of my previous posts (could have been in another thread) is a German politician who served as Minister of Defence between 2013 and 2019, and now she's been nominated for the EU top job to take on the Commission presidency, with responsibilities including proposing new EU laws, enforcing the bloc's rules and handling trade deals. Born in Brussels, her family moved to Germany when she was 13. She studied economics at London's LSE and medicine in Hanover before going into politics and she is fluent in English, German and French. Among her other accomplishments is her original occupation as a physician and being a mother to seven children. And she is also very attractive, a prime target for all the paparazzis.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-48841980
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Rob C

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Re: Politically Correct and Expensive Hiring Of University Teachers
« Reply #111 on: July 03, 2019, 03:36:20 pm »

Yes, she is attractive all right. In fact, watching her in a clip on france24.com today, she looked far better in motion and speaking, than in that image in your link. If poor old May had looked like that, and had a good back and the ability to walk upright, who knows what kind of Brexit we might have been talking about in the past tense.

Kennedy had that charisma. Few other politicos come to mind that have any. It is very important, and when accompanied with brains, pretty invincible chemistry. People just like to be around people like that.

Alan Klein

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Re: Politically Correct and Expensive Hiring Of University Teachers
« Reply #112 on: July 03, 2019, 04:04:10 pm »

Most women don't fit on that end of the bell curve. 

Alan Klein

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Re: Politically Correct and Expensive Hiring Of University Teachers
« Reply #113 on: July 03, 2019, 04:05:17 pm »

So they have to make a choice.

JoeKitchen

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Re: Politically Correct and Expensive Hiring Of University Teachers
« Reply #114 on: July 03, 2019, 04:09:30 pm »

I am starting to see why some on here were so oppositional to the studies I posted. 

Regardless of how scientifically they are posted and talked about, some will invariably make snarky jokes based on the data and conclusions. 
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LesPalenik

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Re: Politically Correct and Expensive Hiring Of University Teachers
« Reply #115 on: July 03, 2019, 04:28:51 pm »

Most women don't fit on that end of the bell curve.

You mean they wouldn't fit inside the bell? Literally or figuratively?
« Last Edit: July 03, 2019, 04:34:55 pm by LesPalenik »
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LesPalenik

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Re: Politically Correct and Expensive Hiring Of University Teachers
« Reply #116 on: July 03, 2019, 04:33:34 pm »

I am starting to see why some on here were so oppositional to the studies I posted. 

Regardless of how scientifically they are posted and talked about, some will invariably make snarky jokes based on the data and conclusions.

Joe, I found your explanations very insightful and interesting. And definitely more useful that the half-baked personal attacks.
That's the beauty of the discussion threads, you never know what people will post. Thank you for spending time to research and publish it.
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James Clark

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Re: Politically Correct and Expensive Hiring Of University Teachers
« Reply #117 on: July 03, 2019, 04:38:40 pm »

Joe, I found your explanations very insightful and interesting. And definitely more useful that the half-baked personal attacks.
That's the beauty of the discussion threads, you never know what people will post. Thank you for spending time to research and publish it.

For sure - I appreciate the discussion also.  I may not agree with the conclusions, but I'm not "opposed" to talking about them. 
« Last Edit: July 03, 2019, 04:44:27 pm by James Clark »
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Alan Klein

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Re: Politically Correct and Expensive Hiring Of University Teachers
« Reply #118 on: July 03, 2019, 05:36:02 pm »

You mean they wouldn't fit inside the bell? Literally or figuratively?

Both :)

Rob C

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Re: Politically Correct and Expensive Hiring Of University Teachers
« Reply #119 on: July 04, 2019, 04:33:52 am »

Both :)

Our bell must be bigger than your bell.
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