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Author Topic: Politically Correct and Expensive Hiring Of University Teachers  (Read 9078 times)

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Politically Correct and Expensive Hiring Of University Teachers
« Reply #20 on: July 02, 2019, 12:07:45 pm »

... My point is that even if we equalize all of the sociological differences in how we raise girls and boys, essentially canceling the differences out, biological differences will still be present and prevent a 50/50 split from developing in many fields. 

You sexist, misogynist, you!  ;D

JoeKitchen

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Re: Politically Correct and Expensive Hiring Of University Teachers
« Reply #21 on: July 02, 2019, 12:14:02 pm »

You sexist, misogynist, you!  ;D

Don't forget a self-hating misandrist, since I seem to have no issue with the large amount of female nurses either.   ;)

« Last Edit: July 02, 2019, 12:19:14 pm by JoeKitchen »
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jeremyrh

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Re: Politically Correct and Expensive Hiring Of University Teachers
« Reply #22 on: July 02, 2019, 12:20:31 pm »

Are you disputing this comes from the left?

I'm quite sure it comes from what you would regard as "the left".
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JoeKitchen

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Re: Politically Correct and Expensive Hiring Of University Teachers
« Reply #23 on: July 02, 2019, 12:27:03 pm »

Female teachers are badly wanted at the University of Technology in Eindhoven, Netherlands. Not only the male candidates are disqualified, but the hired women will receive a bonus starter gift of an extra €100,000. In early seventies, I spent a few months at Philips Computers unit in Eindhoven with many engineers coming from that University and they seemed reasonably well adjusted and fully qualified for their positions, despite being taught mainly by male professors.

150 times  €100,000 comes to 15 milllion euros which could be used for better things than the totally unnecessary perks for the new female recruits. I wouldn't expect any increase in quality of the graduates.

https://www.dutchnews.nl/news/2019/06/eindhoven-university-opens-academic-jobs-to-women-only/

I also have to wonder what effect this will have on the male professors. 

Most don't like getting paid less than someone who is not as qualified, regardless of gender.  If male professors realize they make less than their female counterparts just because they are a male, I cant see many of them accepting this. 

Could this cause the most qualified male professors to move on? 
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LesPalenik

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Re: Politically Correct and Expensive Hiring Of University Teachers
« Reply #24 on: July 02, 2019, 12:32:07 pm »

Many universities are already staffed with teachers of questionable quality or clueless about the real world.
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RSL

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Re: Politically Correct and Expensive Hiring Of University Teachers
« Reply #25 on: July 02, 2019, 01:33:16 pm »

And it's been that way for a while, Les. My mother was a high school English teacher and she watched the gradual decline in the quality of people who were coming into the profession.
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Alan Goldhammer

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Re: Politically Correct and Expensive Hiring Of University Teachers
« Reply #26 on: July 02, 2019, 01:35:27 pm »


For doctors too, the research initially shows a strong bias towards women.  60% of all doctors under 35 are female.  However, what about the specialities?  Looking at just residencies women were higher in the following: Obstetric & Gynecology (83%), Pediatric (73%), Allergy & Immunology (70%), Medical Genetics (67%) and Dermatology (64%).  However, nearly all residencies for surgery are male dominated; Orthopedic Surgery (85% male), Neurological Surgery (82.5%), Thoracic Surgery (73.8%), Vascular Surgery (67%), Plastic Surgery (62%). 
I have seen two plastic surgeons in the past three years, both women, a female urologist, and a Mohs dermatology surgeon also a women.  Dermatology can be misleading as it also includes the subspecialty of Mohs surgery (I think).  The key point is that the prerequisites for getting into medical school require lots of science courses.
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JoeKitchen

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Re: Politically Correct and Expensive Hiring Of University Teachers
« Reply #27 on: July 02, 2019, 01:44:09 pm »

I have seen two plastic surgeons in the past three years, both women, a female urologist, and a Mohs dermatology surgeon also a women.  Dermatology can be misleading as it also includes the subspecialty of Mohs surgery (I think).  The key point is that the prerequisites for getting into medical school require lots of science courses.

Well the statistic don't completely cancel out female surgeons.  They just show still more men choose to study those fields of medicine. 
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Alan Goldhammer

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Re: Politically Correct and Expensive Hiring Of University Teachers
« Reply #28 on: July 02, 2019, 01:47:04 pm »

Well the statistic don't completely cancel out female surgeons.  They just show still more men choose to study those fields of medicine.
While true, I suspect the absolute numbers are small given some specialties such as vascular and thoracic surgery have limited patient populations relative to orthopedics and non-surgical specialties.  In addition OB-GYN has a heavy emphasis on surgery that should not be overlooked (as does some ENT work).
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RSL

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Re: Politically Correct and Expensive Hiring Of University Teachers
« Reply #29 on: July 02, 2019, 01:47:28 pm »

I have seen two plastic surgeons in the past three years, both women, a female urologist, and a Mohs dermatology surgeon also a women.  Dermatology can be misleading as it also includes the subspecialty of Mohs surgery (I think).  The key point is that the prerequisites for getting into medical school require lots of science courses.

Do you understand what Mohs surgery is, Alan? It's straight dermatology. What's different is that the surgeon takes off a very small slice at a time and examines it to see if the cancer has been removed with that bit. If not, another cut is made. If you're lucky, as I was with my ear that was exposed to thousands of miles of sun on a road bike, the first cut gets the job done.
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OmerV

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Re: Politically Correct and Expensive Hiring Of University Teachers
« Reply #30 on: July 02, 2019, 01:58:58 pm »


My point is that even if we equalize all of the sociological differences in how we raise girls and boys, essentially canceling the differences out, biological differences will still be present and prevent a 50/50 split from developing in many fields.

No. You are assuming an innate inability to control who we are. What we are does not dictate who we can be. It is an artificial social construct that imposes limitations, which unsurprisingly have benefited men.

The biological differences of humans has been used to support bigotry and discrimination, nothing new there. But while obviously wrong, it is also ridiculously F^&$#)(*G boring.

PS. I guarantee you that if a “woman’s field”* of work were to become insanely profitable, men would want in, even with our “biological incompatibility.”

*For the jokers, let’s leave out birthing.  ::)

Rob C

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Re: Politically Correct and Expensive Hiring Of University Teachers
« Reply #31 on: July 02, 2019, 02:23:29 pm »

Well the statistic don't completely cancel out female surgeons.  They just show still more men choose to study those fields of medicine.

According to my granddaughter, who enjoyed attending surgery whilst a student, the principal problem with women and surgery is that it is a de facto male preserve that is jealously guarded. You don't just walk into it because you want to do it; there is also a deep-seated need to obtain keys.

There seems to be a rather higher intake of women into dermatology for one simple reason, possibly divisible into two: you are highly unlikely to run into crisis calls, which gives more available time for the responsibilities of motherhood. Women will still produce the babies (and probably the nannies), the hell with the fantasies of the LGBT crowd.

Regarding the proportion of male/female medical students: watching my granddaughter's graduation ceremony video, the women appeared to outnumber the men, and a massive proportion was Chinese, and this in Scotland. Perhaps there appeared to be more women because many looked pretty damned attractive, which may have coloured my mathematical enthusiasm for figures.

Rob

JoeKitchen

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Re: Politically Correct and Expensive Hiring Of University Teachers
« Reply #32 on: July 02, 2019, 02:26:22 pm »

No. You are assuming an innate inability to control who we are. What we are does not dictate who we can be. It is an artificial social construct that imposes limitations, which unsurprisingly have benefited men.

The biological differences of humans has been used to support bigotry and discrimination, nothing new there. But while obviously wrong, it is also ridiculously F^&$#)(*G boring.

PS. I guarantee you that if a “woman’s field”* of work were to become insanely profitable, men would want in, even with our “biological incompatibility.”

*For the jokers, let’s leave out birthing.  ::)

Nope, you got this all wrong. 

Sure, a person can overcome his or her biological traits.  What a single person is will not necessarily dictate who they become, which is why I have been very careful to talk about populations here and not persons.  However, from a mass population perspective (what statistics really looks at), this is just not the case.  Biological differences do have effects, and some people within a mass will succumb to them, thus effecting the overall average.  This is unavoidable with the masses, which take into account all persons, those whom have overcome and those whom simply don't care too. 

Even the article you provided explained as much.  It specifically said that reasons why less women are in tech is due to both nature and nurture, and that for anyone on the left or right to assume it is only one of them is foolish.  The problem with what you are suggesting is that we can somehow control for both. 

Perhaps we can decrease the social nurturing that effects the outcome, but since we can not stop nature (and since nature is also part of the equation), the disparities are not something we can fully eliminate since many individuals will choose to live with those inherently different traits and not be bothered by them.  Even with recognizing this fact, do you really think many are going to care?  Do you really think the average man is going to change his interests just to fight against his biology and work in an industry he is not really interested in for the sake of social progress?  And do you really want a male nurse serving you who is not fully interested in his job and just doing it for social progress? 

Sorry, I don't really care the gender of any nurse that serves me, I just want them to be really interested in helping me. 

I mean really, if men (lets use men since I guess it's more justified to be sexist against men by how you are acting) are biologically less interested in people, and this is part of the reason why they dont go into nursing, how do we overcome this?  How, please tell, do we get the entire population of men to suddenly be more interested in working with people? 

Furthermore, I am not advocating using these differences to "support bigotry and discrimination;" this is your inherent liberal bias against conservatives and your inability to think logical without completely removing your emotions that is causing you to believe I believe in this interpretation of what I wrote.  I am only pointing out the causes of such disparities, and admitting it is part nature and nurture.  Extrapolating the reasons for these disparities to justify bigotry is a totally different line of thought and not one I am advocating. 

Last, women are not forced into lower paying jobs because we feel that is where they should be.  It is simply the case that women choose to work more with people, and you can only work with so many people at the same time.  Think of a nurse, how many persons can she care for at once?  Not many, which is why her salary is not terribly high.  However, an engineer can serve many 1000s with his work all at once.  Although the amount he can get from each is significantly smaller, the shear number of people an engineer can serve multiplies this amount to being a much higher value. 

There is no multiplier effect when working directly with people, and that is why the social sciences pay much less.  It will always be this way. 
« Last Edit: July 02, 2019, 02:51:24 pm by JoeKitchen »
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faberryman

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Re: Politically Correct and Expensive Hiring Of University Teachers
« Reply #33 on: July 02, 2019, 02:29:17 pm »

What biological traits in women skew them away from entering into STEM fields?
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JoeKitchen

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Re: Politically Correct and Expensive Hiring Of University Teachers
« Reply #34 on: July 02, 2019, 02:38:13 pm »

What biological traits in women skew them away from entering into STEM fields?

There is a fair amount of research that shows the average man tends to be more interested in inanimate objects by about one standard deviation.  Likewise, the same research also shows woman tend to be more interested in people by about a standard deviation. 

If you are going to spend all day working on just objects (like in engineering and tech jobs), stands to reason you better really like doing it.  (And dont we tell people to do what they enjoy?)  Same thing with nursing; if you're going to spend all day caring for people you better really like people.  Now this is not to say women should not go into tech or not be interested, I am just merely pointing out the very real biological difference that is partly to blame for the disparity.

Although a standard deviation is not huge, the average person is not whom goes into a field, often.  It are those at the extremes, and even a small difference in overlapping distributions can have a huge effect at the extremes.  See below. 

So, one standard deviation (on the average) of difference does not come close to explaining the differences between men and women in fields, regardless of which gender is dominant.  And being such, this is often used as a reason why such differences exist can only be socially constructed.  The differences in the average is much less then the real life difference, so some type of prejudice must be present or that is the thinking. 

However, if you realize that the action is on the extreme ends and also know that a small difference can cause a huge disparity at the extreme, the disparities start to make more sense from a biological perspective. 
« Last Edit: July 02, 2019, 03:36:53 pm by JoeKitchen »
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faberryman

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Re: Politically Correct and Expensive Hiring Of University Teachers
« Reply #35 on: July 02, 2019, 02:48:27 pm »

There is a fair amount of research that shows the average man tends to be more interested in inanimate objects by about one standard deviation.  Likewise, the same research also shows woman tend to be more interested in people by about a standard deviation.
And to what biological process is that discrepancy attributed.
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JoeKitchen

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Re: Politically Correct and Expensive Hiring Of University Teachers
« Reply #36 on: July 02, 2019, 02:58:26 pm »

And to what biological process is that discrepancy attributed.

The introduction of an increase in testosterone during fetal development. 

We all start off female, but those predisposed to become male, receive extra testosterone in week 9, causing the body to develop into a male.  This does not just effect physical characteristics, but also mental ones too.  Many studies have been completed on just born babies showing differences exist between the genders.  Since it is too early for any type of social constructs to take hold yet, this points to it being a biological difference. 

Furthering the theory, there is a syndrome (Congenital Adrenal Hyperplasia) where sometimes a female fetus is exposed to a greater level of testosterone during development then what is normal, but a little later on then 9 weeks.  This has the effect of giving the female more male like characteristics, and by how much is directly related to how much additional exposure to testosterone she was exposed to above the normal amount. 

Lastly, a transgender going through hormone therapy, whether from male to female or vis versa, has measurable differences in mode and certain mental characteristics due to changes in the hormones.  This too points to there being a real biological difference between men and women beyond just the physical level. 
« Last Edit: July 02, 2019, 03:48:44 pm by JoeKitchen »
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faberryman

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Re: Politically Correct and Expensive Hiring Of University Teachers
« Reply #37 on: July 02, 2019, 03:01:53 pm »

The introduction of an increase in testosterone during fetal development.
So if I understand you correctly, the introduction of an increase in testosterone causes a fetus to be more interested in inanimate objects. I wonder how they established that link on a biological level.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2019, 03:08:38 pm by faberryman »
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JoeKitchen

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Re: Politically Correct and Expensive Hiring Of University Teachers
« Reply #38 on: July 02, 2019, 03:14:52 pm »

So if I understand you correctly, the introduction of an increase in testosterone causes a fetus to be more interested in inanimate objects.

Yes, and it is complicated to say the least.  I also feel like you are purposely trying to bait me into a situation or just bait me to look crazy, so I need to state that everything I am talking about has to deal with average populations, not individuals.  Or I could just be a little overly concerned/crazy with discussing this since it is so easy for someone to allow their emotions to misinterpret what I said. 

The is a very real difference in brain development when testosterone is introduced.  This has been researched, and it is present in both boys and girls who get additional testosterone above normal during fetal development.  One net effect is a slightly greater interest in objects over people.  Keep in mind, it is a slight difference amongst the average. 

It is not like you can go to NYC and start interviewing people off of the street and find this incredible difference between men and women.  You may notice it, assuming you engineered your questions correctly, but it will not be great enough to make sense, at first.  But, like in the graphs I shown before, a slight difference will cause a many times magnified difference at the extremes.  And it is at the extremes where the action happens. 

Another example is aggression.  Although you may be looking at the above and thinking an increase in testosterone will trigger a slightly greater increase in interest in objects as crazy, you probably would certainly agree that an increase in testosterone will increase aggression.  (If you are thinking this, why is one crazy and the other not?)  It is true, boys are more aggressive then girls, but only by a small amount on average.  It is not some great difference that men are many times more aggressive then women.  However, the action is on the extremes and a small difference on the average produces a big effect at the ends of the graph.  This is why most murderers are men.  Are there some women who murder, yes, but many more men. 

The difference between men and women in aggression is not that much on average, not nearly enough to explain the difference in how many men murder vs women.  But it is not the average person who murders; it is the most aggressive persons who do, who happen to be at the extreme. 

More men deal with substance abuse.  There is research that more testosterone, and the later puberty onset, causes this.  Another difference. 

Fetal Testosterone May Program Boys' Behavior  This deals with impulsive behavior and substance abuse. 

I wonder how they established that link on a biological level.

One example

Gendered Occupational Interests: Prenatal Androgen Effects on Psychological Orientation to Things Versus People  This discusses the Congenital Adrenal Hyperplasia (CAH) (when excessive levels of testosterone are introduced during development) and the effects it have on interests of objects vs people. 

Abstract for above research article: "There is considerable interest in understanding women’s underrepresentation in science, technology, engineering, and mathematics careers. Career choices have been shown to be driven in part by interests, and gender differences in those interests have generally been considered to result from socialization. We explored the contribution of sex hormones to career-related interests, in particular studying whether prenatal androgens affect interests through psychological orientation to Things versus People. We examined this question in individuals with congenital adrenal hyperplasia (CAH), who have atypical exposure to androgens early in development, and their unaffected siblings (total N = 125 aged 9 to 26 years). Females with CAH had more interest in Things versus People than did unaffected females, and variations among females with CAH reflected variations in their degree of androgen exposure. Results provide strong support for hormonal influences on interest in occupations characterized by working with Things versus People."
« Last Edit: July 02, 2019, 03:51:05 pm by JoeKitchen »
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faberryman

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Re: Politically Correct and Expensive Hiring Of University Teachers
« Reply #39 on: July 02, 2019, 03:57:39 pm »

If what you say is correct, then I think we could expect to see occupational differences in men and women up to one standard deviation. Yet the differences appear to be much greater, which may mean that something else is at play.
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