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Author Topic: Extreme weather  (Read 57641 times)

Alan Klein

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Re: Extreme weather
« Reply #500 on: August 08, 2019, 06:48:29 pm »

Gosh, I wish things were that simple.
Yup.  That simple.  Don't complicate it. 

faberryman

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Re: Extreme weather
« Reply #501 on: August 08, 2019, 06:50:58 pm »

Yup.  That simple.  Don't complicate it.
So just ignore the complicated stuff?

Alan Klein

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Re: Extreme weather
« Reply #502 on: August 08, 2019, 06:54:00 pm »

So just ignore the complicated stuff?
Stop griping and make a point.

amolitor

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Re: Extreme weather
« Reply #503 on: August 08, 2019, 07:37:31 pm »

Kodak's demise was considerably more complex than that, in particular. Mike over on ToP wrote a nice nuanced piece on the subject in 2016, so there's not a lot of excuse for the ongoing myth of "oh, they were just stupid and greedy" and yet, it continues.
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RSL

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Re: Extreme weather
« Reply #504 on: August 08, 2019, 07:48:56 pm »

But then I am pretty skeptical of certainty anyway. Even a cursory study of epistemology should do that for anyone.

Exactly, Fab! Which is why there's no such thing as a "scientific consensus."
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JoeKitchen

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Re: Extreme weather
« Reply #505 on: August 08, 2019, 08:56:40 pm »

You really should be yelling at someone else. I haven't made an argument for or against.  I really don't have a dog in the hunt.  I have only called into question some of the "facts" being tossed about.

So which facts should be tossed out and why? 
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amolitor

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Re: Extreme weather
« Reply #506 on: August 08, 2019, 09:40:55 pm »

Yep, science is always changing. One year it's global cooling, the next year it's global warming.

One year antibiotics work, the next they don't. I'm pretty sure there's a groundswell of vaccines not working. Pretty soon gravity is going to fade away, because those physics geeks can't find gravity waves and never will.

Might as well just ignore it all and crack another beer!
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JoeKitchen

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Re: Extreme weather
« Reply #507 on: August 08, 2019, 09:49:07 pm »

Going back to the expense of green energy, here is another article. 

We Shouldn't Be Surprised Renewables Make Energy Expensive Since That's Always Been The Greens' Goal


"the output of solar panels declines one percent every year, for inherently physical reasons, and they as well as wind turbines are replaced roughly every two decades. "

"The underlying reason is physical. Solar and wind produce too much energy when we donít need it and not enough when we do.  In 2013, a German economist predicted that the economic value of solar would drop by a whopping 50% when it became just 15% of electricity and that the value of wind would decline 40% once it rose to 30% of electricity.  Six years later, the evidence that solar and wind are increasing electricity prices in the real world, often without reducing emissions, is piling up."

"Some renewable energy advocates protest that more evidence is needed to prove that it is renewables and not some hidden factor that is making electricity expensive.  But there is a growing consensus among economists and independent analysts that solar and wind are indeed making electricity more expensive for two reasons: they are unreliable, thus requiring 100% back-up, and energy-dilute, thus requiring extensive land, transmission lines, and mining."

"the renewables-powered economy is circular, but not in a way that produces abundant energy for infinite recycling.  Rather, renewables-powered economies are circular in the sense of spiraling downward, as in a drain, or like a snake eating its tail until there is nothing left." 
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amolitor

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Re: Extreme weather
« Reply #508 on: August 08, 2019, 11:04:19 pm »

30 seconds on google demonstrates that Michael Shellenberger is known shill for the nuclear power industry, and is prone to, well, to lying a lot.
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Ray

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Re: Extreme weather
« Reply #509 on: August 09, 2019, 04:39:03 am »

30 seconds on google demonstrates that Michael Shellenberger is known shill for the nuclear power industry, and is prone to, well, to lying a lot.

I think you need to spend a bit more than 30 seconds to get an understanding of his position. I am at least impressed by his capacity to change his mind as developments and new evidence emerge.

From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Shellenberger

"In 2017, Shellenberger told The Australian: "Like most people, I started out pretty anti-nuclear. I changed my mind as I realised you can't power a modern economy on solar and wind... All they do is make the electricity system chaotic and provide greenwash for fossil fuels."

The term 'greenwash' refers to a form of spin in which green PR or green marketing is deceptively used to promote the perception that an organization's products, aims or policies are environmentally friendly.

Many years ago when 'climate change alarmism' became a major issue in the media, I didn't question the veracity of the claims by scientists such as James Lovelock, James Hansen, Michael Mann, and so on, as many people don't, or perhaps cannot because of their lack of a basic education in science.

However, when I began doing some serious searching on the internet, for more than 30 seconds  ;) , it gradually became clear that there was a political corruption of science taking place, which was attempting to  create a false degree of certainty about the harmful effects of anthropogenic CO2 emissions, whilst completely ignoring the beneficial effects of increased CO2 levels, such as increased plant growth.

I changed my mind as a result of new evidence that became available to me.
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JoeKitchen

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Re: Extreme weather
« Reply #510 on: August 09, 2019, 07:50:03 am »

30 seconds on google demonstrates that Michael Shellenberger is known shill for the nuclear power industry, and is prone to, well, to lying a lot.

I give you that, but it also shows that he started out in the solar and wind industry, leaving it after he realized it cant really work. 

But I think another important question is why does the left like to demonize nuclear so much and make it sound a lot worse then it actually is?  With the release of the HBO series Chernobyl, nearly every scientist who was there have become highly critical of the series, pretty much saying it is not a documentary at all.  It is a hyped-up drama just based on an actual event that misleads and just makes stuff up, even characters who never existed. 

And if you do a little more then 30 seconds of research, you'll see, for reasons that may not completely align with Shellenberger's opinions, that the left is spreading mis-information for both wind/solar, making it look considerably better then it is, and nuclear, making it look considerably worse then it is.  This is proven to me every time I see a positive article on wind and solar that leaves out all data from currently working wind/solar farms.  They read like fluff pieces without any actual evidence to back up the claims.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2019, 07:58:16 am by JoeKitchen »
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Alan Klein

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Re: Extreme weather
« Reply #511 on: August 09, 2019, 08:33:50 am »

America has been lagging in new construction of nuclear plants.  With low cost natural gas fueled, it's hard to compete today.  Wind gets subsidies. 
US nuclear article:
https://www.world-nuclear.org/information-library/country-profiles/countries-t-z/usa-nuclear-power.aspx

World nuclear - new plants, most in CHina, Russia, India and elsewhere.
https://www.world-nuclear.org/information-library/current-and-future-generation/plans-for-new-reactors-worldwide.aspx

jeremyrh

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Re: Extreme weather
« Reply #512 on: August 09, 2019, 09:17:12 am »

why does the left like to demonize nuclear so much and make it sound a lot worse then it actually is? 

the left is spreading mis-information for both wind/solar, making it look considerably better then it is, and nuclear, making it look considerably worse then it is. 

What does this have to do with "the left" ?
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jeremyrh

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Re: Extreme weather
« Reply #513 on: August 09, 2019, 09:18:50 am »


World nuclear - new plants, most in CHina, Russia, India and elsewhere.
https://www.world-nuclear.org/information-library/current-and-future-generation/plans-for-new-reactors-worldwide.aspx

Hang on - I thought "the left" are anti-nuclear?
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JoeKitchen

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Re: Extreme weather
« Reply #514 on: August 09, 2019, 09:19:59 am »

America has been lagging in new construction of nuclear plants.  With low cost natural gas fueled, it's hard to compete today.  Wind gets subsidies. 
US nuclear article:
https://www.world-nuclear.org/information-library/country-profiles/countries-t-z/usa-nuclear-power.aspx

World nuclear - new plants, most in CHina, Russia, India and elsewhere.
https://www.world-nuclear.org/information-library/current-and-future-generation/plans-for-new-reactors-worldwide.aspx

It's a damn shame too.  The greenies in the country and selling us a bill of false goods, and they hooked the government (at least the Dems) hook, line and sinker.  All the while, other countries will be the ones making the advancements and innovating, reaping in the profits once this wind and solar fad fades away. 

Alright, I have to apologize here.  I made a miscalculation with my figures.  I just realized that capacity in MW and total amount of MWH produced are not the same.  Working on the resolution. 

Let's try this again. 

The World's 10 Largest Wind Farms

The only wind farm where the actual size is given, is the Alta Wind Energy Centre in Kern County, California.  It is 3200 acres in size with a capacity (not actual production mind you, just what it could produce during best conditions) of 1547 MW, or 1.547 GW per acre.  (This is where I made my error forgetting that GW and GWH are not the same.  One is the capacity and the other is the actual volume of production.)  The actual production yearly is 3179 GWH per year. 

In 2018, CA used 285,488 GWH.  In order to generate all of their power by wind, they would need (285,488/3179) x 3200 acres, or 287,373 acres.  This is 450 square miles, or about .3% of the state. 

Wow, I really screwed up that one!   

This figure is not something I now consider daunting, but still a pretty large area, and larger that what we need to allocate to energy production IMHO. 
« Last Edit: August 09, 2019, 10:34:31 am by JoeKitchen »
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JoeKitchen

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Re: Extreme weather
« Reply #515 on: August 09, 2019, 09:22:26 am »

What does this have to do with "the left" ?

Many environmentalists have a knee-jerk reaction to nuclear power and have been fighting it for years. 

Doug Casey on Why the Left Hates Nuclear Power

From a website pushing green tech.  I should mention everything on the list has been debunked. 

10 Reasons to Oppose Nuclear Energy

The Progressive Nuclear Disconnect

I can keep on going on and on and on; Google has an endless amount of responses on the left hating nuclear.  But I think this is enough. 
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jeremyrh

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Re: Extreme weather
« Reply #516 on: August 09, 2019, 09:24:31 am »

Many environmentalists have a knee-jerk reaction to nuclear power and have been fighting it for years. 

Doug Casey on Why the Left Hates Nuclear Power

From a website pushing green tech.  I should mention everything on the list has been debunked. 

10 Reasons to Oppose Nuclear Energy

How does that answer my question? How does a wish to avoid making the planet a very unpleasant place to live relate to "left" and "right" ?
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JoeKitchen

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Re: Extreme weather
« Reply #517 on: August 09, 2019, 09:31:04 am »

How does that answer my question? How does a wish to avoid making the planet a very unpleasant place to live relate to "left" and "right" ?

That, specifically, does not.  I think both sides would like to see the planet better, although much to my chagrin of fellow right of center comrades, I'll admit it is more so on the left then the right. 

What I have an issue with is all of the mis-information the left constantly puts out there about nuclear.  Even the latest HBO "documentary" on Chernobyl has been debunked by nearly all of the experts who were on ground, many of who were not Russian and have no reason to try and make the situation look better then it was.  The "documentary" purposely dramatized the events by implying the deaths were from nuclear exposure when most were caused by the fire and explosions.  They also made up characters that never existed and events that never took place, and contradicted the World Health Organization stats on the event. 

But most who watch this will just assume it was only dramatized a bit with most of it being true, and not do any follow up research to see if that is the case.  It will become another China Syndrome in the minds of the public as yet another false reason to not have nuclear. 
« Last Edit: August 09, 2019, 09:44:37 am by JoeKitchen »
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jeremyrh

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Re: Extreme weather
« Reply #518 on: August 09, 2019, 09:36:50 am »

That, specifically, does not.  I think both sides would like to see the planet better, although much to my chagrin of fellow right of center comrades, I'll admit it is more so on the left then the right. 

What I have an issue with is all of the mis-information the left constantly puts out there about nuclear.  Even the latest HBO "documentary" on Chernobyl has been debunked by nearly all of the experts who were on ground, many of who were not Russian and have no reason to try and make the situation look better then it was.  They purposely dramatized the event by implying the deaths on nuclear exposure when most were caused by the fire and explosions.  They also made up characters that never existed and events that never took place.

HBO="the left" ?
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JoeKitchen

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Re: Extreme weather
« Reply #519 on: August 09, 2019, 09:40:19 am »

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