Pages: 1 ... 23 24 [25] 26 27 ... 114   Go Down

Author Topic: Extreme weather  (Read 57977 times)

Bart_van_der_Wolf

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 8862
Re: Extreme weather
« Reply #480 on: August 08, 2019, 11:13:48 am »

Another personal attack?  You could do better than that, I'm sure.

Alan, I have a similar observation as Peter.

To claim, in the middle of a Trade war with China, that the USA is a Free Market, seems is at odds with reality.
Blaming it on Kool Aid seems to offer a generous way out.

Cheers,
Bart
« Last Edit: August 08, 2019, 11:40:06 am by Bart_van_der_Wolf »
Logged
== If you do what you did, you'll get what you got. ==

kers

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3539
    • Pieter Kers
Re: Extreme weather
« Reply #481 on: August 08, 2019, 11:34:26 am »

I don't know the situation at the moment, but the product  and clothes made of cotton for instance also was?is targeted by protectionism of the USA. To protect its cotton farmers from cheaper import.
If you wanted to import a cotton trouser, the extra duty was depending on the % of cotton in the trouser that came from outside the US, if it only was stitched with cotton from outside the US duties were lower.
It created a big bureaucratic institute to regulate all that with thousand of employees.
Logged

Alan Klein

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 11313
    • Flicker photos
Re: Extreme weather
« Reply #482 on: August 08, 2019, 11:52:57 am »

Not a personal attack at all.  Sorry if you deemed it so. Merely a pragmatic observation.

ie, if you think markets are "free", then you aren't paying enough attention.


Pete, Free markets have varying degrees of government involvement. But for the most part, individuals and business make decisions as to what they're going to buy and companies what they're going to produce.  Of course, whenever government gets involved, it distorts natural economic forces.  For example, solar is being sold more and more people decide to buy them because of government rebates and tax deductions.  This picking of favorites distort free natural market forces.  Forcing gasoline to have 10% ethanol, pushes farmers to plant more corn rather than other products that people eat.  This raises the prices of other food and hurts the poor especially.  The president bailing out farmers due to China tariffs is another major effect on the free market.  BY bailing out soy producers, maybe they would grow other food stuffs that would lower prices for American buyers.  HAving said that, for the main part, market forces generally are not interfered with by government.  Kodak's demise is a perfect example as is Amazon's success.

JoeKitchen

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4500
Re: Extreme weather
« Reply #483 on: August 08, 2019, 12:00:03 pm »

A few more current ones. 

The environmental impacts of solar and wind energy

Wind Farms Cause More Environmental Impact Than Previously Thought

It seems with everything I read wind and solar look more and more like fairy tales, and nuclear looks to be the only real option. 

Going from fossil fuels to wind/solar to save the environment is like quitting crack by smoking cigarettes.  A little better, sure, but it will still kill you in the long run. 
Logged
"Photography is one percent inspiration and ninety-nine percent

Peter McLennan

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3904
Re: Extreme weather
« Reply #484 on: August 08, 2019, 01:26:10 pm »

Wind Farms Cause More Environmental Impact Than Previously Thought

It seems with everything I read wind and solar look more and more like fairy tales, and nuclear looks to be the only real option. 
Going from fossil fuels to wind/solar to save the environment is like quitting crack by smoking cigarettes.  A little better, sure, but it will still kill you in the long run.

That's a wholly unsupportable statement. An opinion? Fine.  But truth? Nope. More like a fairy tale of its own.

Besides, I think you should either broaden your research or vet your references more carefully. I read the second link, and every single one of the comments debunked it.

To say that nuclear is the ONLY solution is to demonstrate extreme closed-mindedness.  Your crack/cigarettes argument is also unsupportable.  Excellent trolling, though.

And, yes, I know what a LFTR is, and I support research and development on this technology. 

Nuclear can be AN option, just not the ONLY option.
Logged

JoeKitchen

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4500
Re: Extreme weather
« Reply #485 on: August 08, 2019, 03:18:34 pm »

That's a wholly unsupportable statement. An opinion? Fine.  But truth? Nope. More like a fairy tale of its own.

Besides, I think you should either broaden your research or vet your references more carefully. I read the second link, and every single one of the comments debunked it.

To say that nuclear is the ONLY solution is to demonstrate extreme closed-mindedness.  Your crack/cigarettes argument is also unsupportable.  Excellent trolling, though.

And, yes, I know what a LFTR is, and I support research and development on this technology. 

Nuclear can be AN option, just not the ONLY option.

Thank you so much for providing your sources here.  Oh wait ....

Thatís right, you have not provided anything to counter my argument, well aside from a very risky geopolitical project that is very ambitious to say the least. 

Additionally, the 2nd link is pretty dense and I find it hard to believe everything in it has been debunked.  If it really, please provide a source explaining why.  If you canít back up your statements, your criticism is meaningless. 
« Last Edit: August 08, 2019, 08:56:01 pm by JoeKitchen »
Logged
"Photography is one percent inspiration and ninety-nine percent

faberryman

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3507
Re: Extreme weather
« Reply #486 on: August 08, 2019, 03:20:48 pm »

Thank you so much for providing your sources here.  Oh wait ....
Sometimes I wonder about the value of dueling sources. I'm pretty sure you can find source for the proposition that alien abductions are real, complete with live witness testimonials. Google is your friend.

JoeKitchen

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4500
Re: Extreme weather
« Reply #487 on: August 08, 2019, 03:22:45 pm »

Sometimes I wonder about the value of dueling sources. I'm pretty sure you can find a source for the proposition that alien abductions are real.

There not real?   ???
Logged
"Photography is one percent inspiration and ninety-nine percent

RSL

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 14859
    • http://www.russ-lewis.com
Re: Extreme weather
« Reply #488 on: August 08, 2019, 03:26:14 pm »

Sometimes I wonder about the value of dueling sources. I'm pretty sure you can find source for the proposition that alien abductions are real, complete with live witness testimonials. Google is your friend.

Right on, Fab. You can find "proof" for anything. It's called liars figuring. You even can find CHARTS to prove anything.
Logged
Russ Lewis  www.russ-lewis.com.

faberryman

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3507
Re: Extreme weather
« Reply #489 on: August 08, 2019, 03:30:56 pm »

It's called liars figuring.
I don't think it is all liars. Sometimes it is just reasonable people looking at the same data and coming to different conclusions. Black and white thinking is a fallacy in formal logic.

RSL

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 14859
    • http://www.russ-lewis.com
Re: Extreme weather
« Reply #490 on: August 08, 2019, 03:37:05 pm »

Depends. If what you're looking at is an opinion, you're right. If what you're looking at supposedly is a "scientific" fact, uh uh. The least dependable finding is called a "scientific consensus."
Logged
Russ Lewis  www.russ-lewis.com.

faberryman

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3507
Re: Extreme weather
« Reply #491 on: August 08, 2019, 03:40:43 pm »

The least dependable finding is called a "scientific consensus."
There are plenty of things less dependable than a scientific consensus.

JoeKitchen

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 4500
Re: Extreme weather
« Reply #492 on: August 08, 2019, 03:41:50 pm »

I don't think it is all liars. Sometimes it is just reasonable people looking at the same data and coming to different conclusions. Black and white thinking is a fallacy in formal logic.

This is such a cop out and BS.  Maybe the reason you say this because you donít want to admit to yourself large scale solar/wind is a bad idea.   

We are not talking about macro economics here.  This is relatively easy data to look at.  How many birds does this farm kill per year?  Itís a pretty easy stat to measure.  Once again, we have these massive farms, letís see how much power they actually produce.  Not hard to do and all meadurements shows they produce a lot less per acre then predicted, which was pretty low to begin with. 

Iíll admit it gets more complicated to corrolate lower then expected drops in CO2 to wind/solar, but the ecological effects of killing birds and other animals are pretty easy to measure.  You just count the corpses. 
Logged
"Photography is one percent inspiration and ninety-nine percent

faberryman

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3507
Re: Extreme weather
« Reply #493 on: August 08, 2019, 03:52:48 pm »

This is such a cop out and BS.  Maybe the reason you say this because you don’t want to admit to yourself large scale solar/wind is a bad idea.
You really should be yelling at someone else. I haven't made an argument for or against.  I really don't have a dog in the hunt.  I have only called into question some of the "facts" being tossed about.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2019, 04:00:40 pm by faberryman »
Logged

LesPalenik

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Online Online
  • Posts: 4204
    • advantica blog
Re: Extreme weather
« Reply #494 on: August 08, 2019, 03:52:54 pm »

You can grow vegetables under and between solar panels, thus utilizing the land better.

Quote
A new model for solar farms that 'co-locates' crops and solar panels could result in a harvest of valuable biofuel plants along with solar energy. This co-location approach could prove especially useful in sunny, arid regions such as the southwestern United States

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/04/140409143942.htm

https://www.laserfocusworld.com/detectors-imaging/article/16571646/new-solar-panels-harvest-energy-and-also-allow-crops-to-grow-underneath
Logged

RSL

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 14859
    • http://www.russ-lewis.com
Re: Extreme weather
« Reply #495 on: August 08, 2019, 03:58:13 pm »

There are plenty of things less dependable than a scientific consensus.

Name one.

Maybe a post in The Coffee Corner?
Logged
Russ Lewis  www.russ-lewis.com.

faberryman

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3507
Re: Extreme weather
« Reply #496 on: August 08, 2019, 04:01:41 pm »

Name one.
How about an unsupported opinion of a layman? I'd take a scientific consensus over an unsupported opinion of a layman any day. Even the supported opinion of a layman. With all the cherry picking of sources, I'm dubious. As if Google is some arbiter of truth. But then I am pretty skeptical of certainty anyway. Even a cursory study of epistemology should do that for anyone.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2019, 05:49:57 pm by faberryman »
Logged

Peter McLennan

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3904
Re: Extreme weather
« Reply #497 on: August 08, 2019, 04:52:10 pm »

Pete, Free markets have varying degrees of government involvement. But for the most part, individuals and business make decisions as to what they're going to buy and companies what they're going to produce.  Of course, whenever government gets involved, it distorts natural economic forces.  For example, solar is being sold more and more people decide to buy them because of government rebates and tax deductions.  This picking of favorites distort free natural market forces.  Forcing gasoline to have 10% ethanol, pushes farmers to plant more corn rather than other products that people eat.  This raises the prices of other food and hurts the poor especially.  The president bailing out farmers due to China tariffs is another major effect on the free market.  BY bailing out soy producers, maybe they would grow other food stuffs that would lower prices for American buyers.  HAving said that, for the main part, market forces generally are not interfered with by government.  Kodak's demise is a perfect example as is Amazon's success.

There are no "natural economic forces".  Economics is an invention of human beings.  Nature has its own rules.
All economic markets are controlled to some extent, whether by government regulations (frequently necessary) or by cartels and trade associations (created solely by those with vested interests).  To say that markets are free is to ignore all evidence to the contrary.  Hence, my Kool Aid taunt.  (grape was my favourite flavour, back in the day)

Kodak failed due to ignorance and greed, IMO.  Amazon succeeded due to smarts and greed.  Whether either or both are a good thing is open to debate.
Logged

Alan Klein

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 11313
    • Flicker photos
Re: Extreme weather
« Reply #498 on: August 08, 2019, 06:28:42 pm »

There are no "natural economic forces".  Economics is an invention of human beings.  Nature has its own rules.
All economic markets are controlled to some extent, whether by government regulations (frequently necessary) or by cartels and trade associations (created solely by those with vested interests).  To say that markets are free is to ignore all evidence to the contrary.  Hence, my Kool Aid taunt.  (grape was my favourite flavour, back in the day)

Kodak failed due to ignorance and greed, IMO.  Amazon succeeded due to smarts and greed.  Whether either or both are a good thing is open to debate.
But government had basically nothing to do with their failure or success.  It was consumers buying and selling that affected the results.  Kodak who had a head start with digital failed to follow through.  They wanted to protect their lucrative film market.  Well, the consumers decided they wanted digital anyway and Kodak failed.  Consumers in the Amazon case felt that sitting at home at a computer was a great way to shop so now Bezos and his ex are very rich people.  The government had nothing to do with that either.  Billions of purchase decisions were made that caused both scenarios.  That is how free markets work.  Cartels and trade associations had nothing to do with it either although they can have an affect.  They, however, are part of the mix as they are freely associated by without government causation.  Those people are "free" too to do what they want.  Frankly, I don't know what point you're trying to make.  That government is in charge of markets?  Not here in the US and most countries.  Where they are (Cuba, North Korea, ) or were (Soviet Union), those economies become basket cases eventually. 

faberryman

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3507
Re: Extreme weather
« Reply #499 on: August 08, 2019, 06:41:02 pm »

Gosh, I wish things were that simple.
Pages: 1 ... 23 24 [25] 26 27 ... 114   Go Up