GFX100, a 15 fold increase of value compared to an XF IQ350 (per Bernard)

[DP]

that also guarantee future lens purchases.

they guarantee future razor blades ...sorry...  film packs sales... which unlike lens must be replaced much sooner and in a bigger quantities... and they don't need any warranty services, do they ?

[chez]

Nothing of the sort was suggested.

The contention was that sales of the new mf camera will ensure development of the platform.

Nobody denied aps-c sales
Nobody denied instax sales

Not necessarily so. When R&D funds are allocated, all product lines are looked at and the ones with the most promise ( revenue and / or OI ) get the funds. I lived my entire working life in a product development environment and every year no matter what company I was part of, we'd look at ROI when distributing R&D dollars.

It's obvious that Fuji felt spending a bundle on promoting Instax last year was worth the investment.

[chez]

The bu makes a little south of 400 billion yen, they've sold 10million units instax. Thus roughly 1/4, not 2/3. In addition, if that 1/4 revenue eats up the majority of the advertising budget because of celeb deals, I don't see how that can be considered a profitable driver. It's not like the instax cameras are long term product investments for potential customers that also guarantee future lens purchases.

No...but there are repeat customers. Once your Instax is used up...you need another.

I have no idea the margins on Instax cameras versus APS-C cameras versus MF cameras...but let's not forget the huge R&D costs associated with MF that needs to be paid off. With Instax...they've been paid long ago...the rest is gravy.

If Instax is 1/4 of the revenue, what do you think MF is?

[32BT]

they guarantee future razor blades ...sorry...  film packs sales... which unlike lens must be replaced much sooner and in a bigger quantities... and they don't need any warranty services, do they ?

Haha, true. But how many razorblades do you need to sell to compensate one mf lens sale?
(And the warranty isn't necessary because people likely don't use it long enough to break it...)

[DP]

Haha, true. But how many razorblades do you need to sell to compensate one mf lens sale?

check prices for instax film packs * how many magnitudes more Fuji sells instax cameras... it is where the money are... like with printing money are not in printers

[32BT]

No...but there are repeat customers. Once your Instax is used up...you need another.

I have no idea the margins on Instax cameras versus APS-C cameras versus MF cameras...but let's not forget the huge R&D costs associated with MF that needs to be paid off. With Instax...they've been paid long ago...the rest is gravy.

If Instax is 1/4 of the revenue, what do you think MF is?

I don't have a clue tbh. 5k x units sold + some additional lenses, say on avg (usd) 10k per customer @ 10k customers makes roughly 10bn yen.

If those numbers remotely make sense, then your 2.5% would not be unreasonable.

[32BT]

check prices for instax film packs * how many magnitudes more Fuji sells instax cameras... it is where the money are... like with printing money are not in printers

Ah, yes, printing inks. Wasn't that like 99% water?

[hogloff]

Haha, true. But how many razorblades do you need to sell to compensate one mf lens sale?
(And the warranty isn't necessary because people likely don't use it long enough to break it...)

What's the R&D cost to pay off on that lens? How many lens does Fuji need to sell to break even?

The instax cameras have long ago paid off the meager R&D costs...now it's gravy.

If one thinks Fuji can survive without the low end Instax and APS-C cameras / lenses...just living off MF...good luck.

[BernardLanguillier]

Have’t we gone from discussing the price/success of the GFX100 to discussing the relevance of selling anything that doesn’t sell in millions of units?

- Why has Fuji decided to enter MF again?
- What could be a measure of their success in doing so?
- How is the GFX100 helping them achieve this success?
- is the right price point for the GFX100 driven by costs or by perceived value?
- is the perceived value of the GFX best assessed by the billions of people who will not buy one or be the x0,000s of people who will buy one?

Cheers,
Bernard

[Joe Towner]

Fuji has always been in MF, it's just been sold as Hasselblad for the last decade plus.  They were selling plenty of their APS-C mirrorless cameras, and saw how crowded the 35mm FF game was.  The Sony 33x44 chip gave them a different game, where there are margins, and when they weren't able to be the lens vendor for Hasselblad, they went the path alone.

The GFX 50s & 50r are priced great - there is no downward pressure.  The GFX100 has no equal and is a huge bargain, there are 2 platforms at 100mp, both being the full frame Hass & Phase, but neither have IBIS, 5fps or BSI wiring.  The IQ4 150mp is a different beast that isn't part of this discussion.

Japanese companies are interesting in how they approach flagship products.  It's a huge amount of pride & I wouldn't be surprised the GFX 100 getting camera of the year from most if not all publications.  The value of this far exceeds the profits.

Perceived value is a year or so off - we need lots of shooters who have their work product up and seen by the commercial market to help communicate the differences.  It will be there, but it takes time.  What will be interesting is seeing how many folks get a first taste with the GFX 100 & then step up to the 150mp Phase.

-Joe

[32BT]

What's the R&D cost to pay off on that lens? How many lens does Fuji need to sell to break even?

The instax cameras have long ago paid off the meager R&D costs...now it's gravy.

If one thinks Fuji can survive without the low end Instax and APS-C cameras / lenses...just living off MF...good luck.

Actually, I think the bulk of the R&D has been consumed elsewhere in both instances. For instax in print, for lenses in medical and copiers.

If one thinks Fuji can survive without the low end Instax and APS-C cameras / lenses...just living off MF...good luck.

The entire imaging bu including instax, apsc, mf, photoprint etc, only represents 15% of Fuji's total revenue. That company is gigantic. Nobody is or was saying Fuji can survive on mf alone. Let's just be glad that that bu is currently deemed profitable somehow (distributed R&D notwithstanding) and we are being offered some pretty amazing cameragear with excellent lenses in both apsc and mf.

With the downward trend in photography atm, how long will this remain possible?

[BernardLanguillier]

One thing is 100% sure, my absurdly expensive GFX100 has shipped.

Providing the G20 in Osaka doesn't mean the end of Japan, I should get it by Sunday.

Cheers,
Bernard

[32BT]

One thing is 100% sure, my absurdly expensive GFX100 has shipped.

Providing the G20 in Osaka doesn't mean the end of Japan, I should get it by Sunday.

Cheers,
Bernard

I can hear a Z7 silently crying in a corner, even from here... (you still have my address, don't you? In case that Z7 needs some consolation.)

[BernardLanguillier]

I can hear a Z7 silently crying in a corner, even from here... (you still have my address, don't you? In case that Z7 needs some consolation.)

Thanks for your kind offer, but I believe they will get along just fine.

The lenses are making friends already.

Cheers,
Bernard

[eronald]

One thing is 100% sure, my absurdly expensive GFX100 has shipped.

Providing the G20 in Osaka doesn't mean the end of Japan, I should get it by Sunday.

Cheers,
Bernard

Japan, the country where packages get delivered on Sundays. Ah you are really far from your native Europe, Bernard.


PS
If I had had a hand in teh design I would have covered the whole back of the GFX100 with one HUGE touchscreen, so that even older users could clearly operate the camera without glasses, and review shots clearly. Reviewing shots is one of the great pleasures and learning tools of digital photography.

Edmund

[Alan Klein]

I suspect Fuji intends to sell these to the upscale buyers and professionals who won;t be too bothered by the cost. People willing to spend $4500 on a Nikon 35mm pro camera will find Fuji's pricing reasonable for a MF camera. 

[BernardLanguillier]

Japan, the country where packages get delivered on Sundays. Ah you are really far from your native Europe, Bernard.

Really?

Cheers,
Bernard

[eronald]

I suspect Fuji intends to sell these to the upscale buyers and professionals who won;t be too bothered by the cost. People willing to spend $4500 on a Nikon 35mm pro camera will find Fuji's pricing reasonable for a MF camera.

In Japan I suspect most of these will be sold at a steep discount with printer and media bundling to the FujiFilm linked formal photography studios.

Edmund

[BernardLanguillier]

In Japan I suspect most of these will be sold at a steep discount with printer and media bundling to the FujiFilm linked formal photography studios.

That could be the case... or not. I believe that in Japan, like many other countries, amateurs will make up the vast majority of buyers.

Cheers,
Bernard

[Martin Kristiansen]

That could be the case... or not. I believe that in Japan, like many other countries, amateurs will make up the vast majority of buyers.

Cheers,
Bernard

I’m sure that true. Nothing wrong with that. Amateurs, not fond of the word as sometimes it can seem insulting and I don’t mean that at all, have the luxury of deciding what they want to say and how they want to say it and then can choose their tools accordingly. A pleasant position to be in.