Luminous Landscape Forum

Equipment & Techniques => Medium Format / Film / Digital Backs Ė and Large Sensor Photography => Topic started by: eronald on June 24, 2019, 07:54:04 pm

Title: GFX100, a 15 fold increase of value compared to an XF IQ350 (per Bernard)
Post by: eronald on June 24, 2019, 07:54:04 pm
It is my belief - founded on my 40 year old education in IC design, that chips are priced by surface. (The root cause of this is that defects follow a Poisson statistic).

Hence the cost of a 50Mp or a 100MP 44x33 chip do not differ vey significantly.

Which makes me think that the cost to Fuji of a 44x33 chip is well under $1K, and makes the pricing of the GFX100 completely incomprehensible, a more reasonable expectation of pricing would be somewhere north of $5K where we find the other "pro" Nikon and Canon bodies ... and the Hasselblad X1DII.

I think Fuji may have been indulging in a bit of puffery with the overlarge and shiny booster body and noisy launch PR, and we can expect some quick steps downwards as soon as the first wave of impulse buying subsides.

The positioning of the GFX100 in the Fuji line, as a straight jump up from APS-C is very smart. However it becomes less clever when the price differential between APS-C flagship and the crop MF flagship is 4x rather than 2x.

I intend no disrespect to Fuji, nor to the GFX100 which seems an excellent photographic device, but the discussion of pricing has always been a prerogative of the consumer.

Edmund
Title: Re: The incomprehensible and absurd overpricing of the Fuji GFX-100
Post by: DP on June 24, 2019, 08:54:13 pm
chips are priced by surface. (The root cause of this is that defects follow a Poisson statistic).
cost is by surface, price is by demand (vs supply, whatever)... it is not an essential prescription drug to try to regulate it.
Title: Re: The incomprehensible and absurd overpricing of the Fuji GFX-100
Post by: DanielStone on June 24, 2019, 09:47:55 pm
I never see Ferrari, Aston Martin, or Rolls Royce offering discounts publicly.
It's a tool, and they can ask whatever they want, just like photographers who shoot professionally can ask what they feel is fair, that doesn't mean the customer might like the number quoted ;)

The market will decide if their MSRP pricing is "fair". If it's not, and units are slower to move than deemed justifiable by the dealers worldwide, they'll discount in time.
Title: Re: The incomprehensible and absurd overpricing of the Fuji GFX-100
Post by: billthecat on June 24, 2019, 10:37:05 pm
Fuji appears to be giving a very reasonable price point on their cameras. I would gather that they are pricing not what the market could handle but a conservative profit over their costs. Of course this is an opinion since I don't know all the costs. We know Hassy wanted to sell their X1D at a higher price point.

Bill
Title: Re: The incomprehensible and absurd overpricing of the Fuji GFX-100
Post by: BernardLanguillier on June 24, 2019, 10:44:57 pm
The GFX100 isnít cheap but the excellent GF lenses are a total bargain compared to anything else in ďMFĒ.

Try to compare them to Leica S glass for a good laugh. And I personally think that the Fuji lenses are the better ones performance wise. Comparable Hasselblad lenses are also much more expensive.

Itís true that Fuji probably generates a healthy margin per body sold, but there is significant R&D investment here with first ever MF pdaf, first ever MF IBIS, a platform supporting 5fps at 100mp... that has to be accounted for.

Think of the margins P1 is doing per body with the Iq4-150 if you only think about BOM costs.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: The incomprehensible and absurd overpricing of the Fuji GFX-100
Post by: BobShaw on June 24, 2019, 10:54:42 pm
It is my belief - founded on my 40 year old education in IC design, that chips are priced by surface. (The root cause of this is that defects follow a Poisson statistic).
Hence the cost of a 50Mp or a 100MP 44x33 chip do not differ vey significantly.
I would have though that twice as many pixels would make it twice as complex. Anyway,
What is the price? I thought that it was around $US10K.

Cost has little bearing on price. The price is what the manufacturer thinks that people will pay.
Title: Re: The incomprehensible and absurd overpricing of the Fuji GFX-100
Post by: hubell on June 24, 2019, 11:36:59 pm
The Fuji GFX 100 is ďabsurdly overpriced ď? This is a joke, right?
Title: Re: The incomprehensible and absurd overpricing of the Fuji GFX-100
Post by: eronald on June 25, 2019, 05:43:10 am
The Fuji GFX 100 is ďabsurdly overpriced ď? This is a joke, right?

Hubell,
 
Seen by an engineer, Sony's A7RIII, has substantially the same functionality, namely a drop-in fully-digital Sony sensor part, IBIS, functional eyefocus, and various video modes, and costs $2800 or so on Amazon. I have been told the Sony is a very usable camera, although I don't own one.

The Fuji may have a denser pixel pitch and slightly larger 33x44 mm $800 sensor that needs to be bought from the competition, while the Sony has a $250 sensor from their own fab, but  I see no real functional difference between the A7R3 and the GFX100 design apart from scale. I'm not even sure the buffer is much larger in MB as the frame rate is lower. Sure the IBIS and body frame are scaled up from the Fuji APS-C versions, but the Sony has IBIS too, for a "24x36" sensor that is not that much smaller in area (or weight) than crop MF, and Sony too has solved its video heat issues.

My take on this is that we are seeing deliberate oversizing and "Boombox Pricing" from Fuji. Convince them that because you built it larger they need to pay more. There's nothing wrong with this, I'm just pointing out that it's happening. You wanna buy it, you'll get an excellent product, albeit at an inflated pricepoint.


Sony A7Riii ===> GFX100
24x36mm ===> 33x44mm
$2900 ===> $10 000
Absurd Overpricing.

Edmund

UPDATE: I think there is one part which is probably expensive and bought from a specialist manufacturer (Seiko, Copal?), which is the oversize shutter that accomodates the large sensor and space for IBIS movement. It is interesting that apart from a comment about moderate noise, no mention is made of the shutter or of the shutter wind mechanism in any of the videos or marketing materials I have seen. I wonder whether the part is the same as used for the Phase XF body, which I believe is sized to 645 but is probably designed for a mirror box environment.
Title: Re: The incomprehensible and absurd overpricing of the Fuji GFX-100
Post by: Bart_van_der_Wolf on June 25, 2019, 07:39:40 am
It is my belief - founded on my 40 year old education in IC design, that chips are priced by surface.

Indirectly. It's more about yield (which drops a lot as size increases, and as structures shrink).

Quote
Hence the cost of a 50Mp or a 100MP 44x33 chip do not differ very significantly.


There's more to launching a new product that uses a sensor. Commitments for numbers of sensors to be purchased, and the risks involved is but one. Designing a platform that uses such a sensor and is ready for future developments, is another.

Focusing on a single component, the sensor, is not a realistic way of looking at it.

Cheers,
Bart
Title: Re: The incomprehensible and absurd overpricing of the Fuji GFX-100
Post by: Ken Doo on June 25, 2019, 08:36:56 am
My son when he was in middle-school would say, "It's a business, not a charity." 

 ::)

The GFX remains one of the best bang-for-the-buck camera systems today, imho.  Right behind your cell phone  ;D
Title: Re: The incomprehensible and absurd overpricing of the Fuji GFX-100
Post by: eronald on June 25, 2019, 09:17:45 am
Indirectly. It's more about yield (which drops a lot as size increases, and as structures shrink).
Bart

Bart,

 Of course you are right. It is about yield. But in the end when a process is running and being commercially exploited, yield for a die is mainly dependent on surface of the die. For those who are interested in a survey, here is a fairly recent set of course materials.

http://courses.ieor.berkeley.edu/ieor130/yield_models_rev6.pdf

The topic of sensor prices has been debated at length on the forum, but again it is difficult to set a "true" price on a chip, because prototypes are expensive, production at the end of the yield curve is cheap, the capital investment on the equipment is huge, but once it is running you amortize it, and in the case of Japan, manufacturers presumably have extensive reserve capacity to offset the impact of earthquakes, and luckily there have been no major disasters lately. I believe now of the order of $1K for the sensor in the GFX100 is what is getting paid, maybe someone else here has datapoints for another current commercial sensor of the same surface eg. the ones used by Leica.


As for other factors that go into pricing a product, I believe they are complex and dependent on marketing factors, such as for instance a desire to avoid a "flagship" product cannibalising a cash cow or vice versa, and the need for a flagship product to exist at least on paper to establish branding.

Branding explains why very expensive Haute Couture shows are regularly held in Paris for clothes that will only sell in single digits, but which will establish branding for ready to wear, accessories, cosmetics and perfume.

So maybe we are just looking at an exercise in branding. My local FNAC has a Nikon D5 and a Canon 1DxII in a display case, and a Fuji GFX50 - it will now have a GFX100 - I believe such static camera bodies are called "display queens".

Edmund
Title: Re: The incomprehensible and absurd overpricing of the Fuji GFX-100
Post by: fotagf8 on June 25, 2019, 09:42:32 am
I believe Adobe went to the subscription model three or so years ago.  At the time, its stock was trading at around $50 a share.  Today, the stock price opened at around $300 a share.  Many photographers on forums asserted that this was the end of Adobe, and that they would never subscribe.  Proof that the vocal people on web forums often donít know what they are talking about.  I donít think Fuji cares what a few vocal photographers on forums think about its business pricing strategy.  They undoubtedly spent a lot of time doing market research.

That is not to say that Fuji doesnít care what photographers think about their products.  In fact, it appears that Fuji listened carefully to what photographers had to say about the GFX 50.  $10,000 may seem like a lot if you just focus on pixel count.  But when you throw in image stabilization, greatly improved auto focus, better ISO performance, and some seemingly useful design changes, this looks like a  very desirable camera.  I suspect Fuji will do quite well with it.
Title: Re: The incomprehensible and absurd overpricing of the Fuji GFX-100
Post by: eronald on June 25, 2019, 10:36:46 am
I believe Adobe went to the subscription model three or so years ago.  At the time, its stock was trading at around $50 a share.  Today, the stock price opened at around $300 a share.  Many photographers on forums asserted that this was the end of Adobe, and that they would never subscribe.  Proof that the vocal people on web forums often donít know what they are talking about.  I donít think Fuji cares what a few vocal photographers on forums think about its business pricing strategy.  They undoubtedly spent a lot of time doing market research.

That is not to say that Fuji doesnít care what photographers think about their products.  In fact, it appears that Fuji listened carefully to what photographers had to say about the GFX 50.  $10,000 may seem like a lot if you just focus on pixel count.  But when you throw in image stabilization, greatly improved auto focus, better ISO performance, and some seemingly useful design changes, this looks like a  very desirable camera.  I suspect Fuji will do quite well with it.

You are quite right - now that they have achieved software lock-in Adobe  seem likely to raise prices and revenues more quickly, as the value provided to the user is supplemented by the cost of any attempt to escape.

One of my friends was CIO of a 2000 person site for a computer consultancy. He ran the whole backend on Linux. A management decision was made to move to Microsoft, and the salesman came in and said "you will pay us $500K up front". So my friend asked "why?" and the guys said "our licensing system is deliberately set up to be opaque, you will never be able to prove that you are not in breach of contract, whatever you do. So you just pay what we say." They did.

BTW, I'm sure you're right about the Fuji's many desirable properties, but maybe you could explain which one of those is innovative, and not provided by the A7R3, apart of course the size?


Edmund

Title: Re: The incomprehensible and absurd overpricing of the Fuji GFX-100
Post by: BernardLanguillier on June 25, 2019, 10:43:08 am
I suspect Fuji wonít be able to build according to demand for 6 months to a year.

I also donít think that a 60mp Sony a7rIV or 70 mp Nikon Z9 will reduce the desirability of the GFX100 a bit.

The only possible threat could have been a more compact 100mp X2D, but Hasselblad has just told us at the best possible timing we wonít be getting that so the road is wide open for Fuji. If I were the Fuji marketing director Iíd send 100 bottles of the best champain to Sweden because there really couldnít have been a better move to remove any possible doubts in the mind of prospect GFX100 buyers.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: The incomprehensible and absurd overpricing of the Fuji GFX-100
Post by: hasselbladfan on June 25, 2019, 11:57:33 am
I saw it at B&H for 9,999 usd, which as a businessman does not look so "absurd" to me.

1. They are by far the cheapest 100MP camera on the market (vs Phase1 / Hasselblad).
2. They have a great range of modestly priced lenses (vs the same competitors, Leica).
3. They know they will get some competition in 2020, which will push the price to 7-8k range (see Pentax example years ago).
4. They know most people don't need a 100MP, so we are talking at best 1,000-2,000 cameras per year (I have no clue, maybe even less).
5. They know whatever they do, some people will complain on Lulu. :)

So, let's take the extra bucks and run.
Title: Re: The incomprehensible and absurd overpricing of the Fuji GFX-100
Post by: Endeavour on June 25, 2019, 01:23:39 pm

One of my friends was CIO of a 2000 person site for a computer consultancy. He ran the whole backend on Linux. A management decision was made to move to Microsoft, and the salesman came in and said "you will pay us $500K up front". So my friend asked "why?" and the guys said "our licensing system is deliberately set up to be opaque, you will never be able to prove that you are not in breach of contract, whatever you do. So you just pay what we say." They did.


lol, run us through that one again
Title: Re: The incomprehensible and absurd overpricing of the Fuji GFX-100
Post by: hubell on June 25, 2019, 01:54:01 pm
I suspect Fuji wonít be able to build according to demand for 6 months to a year.

I also donít think that a 60mp Sony a7rIV or 70 mp Nikon Z9 will reduce the desirability of the GFX100 a bit.

The only possible threat could have been a more compact 100mp X2D, but Hasselblad has just told us at the best possible timing we wonít be getting that so the road is wide open for Fuji. If I were the Fuji marketing director Iíd send 100 bottles of the best champain to Sweden because there really couldnít have been a better move to remove any possible doubts in the mind of prospect GFX100 buyers.

Cheers,
Bernard

One thing I am sure about is that Hasselblad knows its business better than any of us do, and that's why they did what they did with the X1D Mark II. The dramatic expansion of the medium format digital market that Fuji and Hasselbad achieved with the GFX 50S/R and the X1D was primarily about moving advanced (and in many cases not so advanced) amateur photographers from their APS-C and FF systems. AFAIK, well over 70% of the GFX units were sold to this group. What changed to incentivize them to move up? Two things.  Primarily price, and secondarily the smaller size/weight of the systems compared to conventional medium format digital systems. The Fuji GFX 100 is a completely different proposition. $10k v. $4-5k for a GFX 50S/R. And, it's relatively huge in size and weight compared to a GFX 50S/R. Against that backdrop, what Hasselblad did with the Mark II was potentially brilliant. It's all about the price! You can now have a brand new Hasselblad X1D Handmade in Sweden for $5700, pretty close to the Fuji GFX. And, the size and weight advantages were preserved the Mark II, with a huge new LCD screen to show off that smartphone-type User Interface and a very much improved EVF thrown in for good measure. Nobody saw that price drop coming.
So, that Fuji Marketing Director responsible for the GFX 100 may be happy, but the one resonsible for the GFX 50S/R may not be so happy. They no longer own the end of the market for price sensitive buyers.
BTW,  I personally wanted an X2D with the 100MP Sony sensor, but I am an outlier in the overall market, just as you are, Bernard.
Title: Re: The incomprehensible and absurd overpricing of the Fuji GFX-100
Post by: eronald on June 25, 2019, 03:05:00 pm
eronald = gilet jaune

;)

Slobodan,

 I like your logo "When everyone thinks the same, nobody thinks".

 I think everyone in this discussion has a point.

Edmund :)
Title: Re: The incomprehensible and absurd overpricing of the Fuji GFX-100
Post by: Christopher on June 25, 2019, 03:41:52 pm
Well there is still the point of X1D lenses are much more expensive, without any benefit. (Except the 1% who need LS for flash.)

I personally donít think the GFX100 is overpriced. Certainly I would have preferred 7-8k, however, the system in total (lenses) is so much more affordable than anything else and it beats anything else. I have no doubts it will be superior to any recent gen cameras from Phase or Hassi.

Im also sure we will see a 100MP S version without IBIS around 6k sooner rather then later.
Title: Re: The incomprehensible and absurd overpricing of the Fuji GFX-100
Post by: eronald on June 25, 2019, 03:54:38 pm
Well there is still the point of X1D lenses are much more expensive, without any benefit. (Except the 1% who need LS for flash.)


Actually there may be a negative benefit as I have heard they make harsh patterns when closed down.

Edmund
Title: Re: The incomprehensible and absurd overpricing of the Fuji GFX-100
Post by: Christopher on June 25, 2019, 04:11:37 pm
Actually there may be a negative benefit as I have heard they make harsh patterns when closed down.

Edmund

And have you actually seen it? I have heard a lot which was just a lot of BS.
Title: Re: The incomprehensible and absurd overpricing of the Fuji GFX-100
Post by: eronald on June 25, 2019, 05:03:29 pm
And have you actually seen it? I have heard a lot which was just a lot of BS.

No, I am not certain I have seen it, Although I seem to remember not being impressed with some images. But I have had this issue with two of my own lenses on other cameras that in some cases an aperture shape really can degrade pictures. Someone who is "precise" enough to go for a central shutter for flash portraits would do well to test the lens that will be used.


Edmund
Title: Re: The incomprehensible and absurd overpricing of the Fuji GFX-100
Post by: BernardLanguillier on June 25, 2019, 06:11:20 pm
One thing I am sure about is that Hasselblad knows its business better than any of us do, and that's why they did what they did with the X1D Mark II. The dramatic expansion of the medium format digital market that Fuji and Hasselbad achieved with the GFX 50S/R and the X1D was primarily about moving advanced (and in many cases not so advanced) amateur photographers from their APS-C and FF systems. AFAIK, well over 70% of the GFX units were sold to this group. What changed to incentivize them to move up? Two things.  Primarily price, and secondarily the smaller size/weight of the systems compared to conventional medium format digital systems. The Fuji GFX 100 is a completely different proposition. $10k v. $4-5k for a GFX 50S/R. And, it's relatively huge in size and weight compared to a GFX 50S/R. Against that backdrop, what Hasselblad did with the Mark II was potentially brilliant. It's all about the price! You can now have a brand new Hasselblad X1D Handmade in Sweden for $5700, pretty close to the Fuji GFX. And, the size and weight advantages were preserved the Mark II, with a huge new LCD screen to show off that smartphone-type User Interface and a very much improved EVF thrown in for good measure. Nobody saw that price drop coming.
So, that Fuji Marketing Director responsible for the GFX 100 may be happy, but the one resonsible for the GFX 50S/R may not be so happy. They no longer own the end of the market for price sensitive buyers.
BTW,  I personally wanted an X2D with the 100MP Sony sensor, but I am an outlier in the overall market, just as you are, Bernard.

A couple of points:
- I have been vocal about Hasselblad not communicating so I understand why they had to do something and announce it
- I have also been vocal about the level of maturity of Hasselblad profucts at H6D/X1D product launch so I understand that they may have wanted to wait until they were ready to launch the X1DII
- I understand that, within the very limited scope they seem able to handle with the resources their business plan is driving, they probably couldnít do more than the X1DII in this time frame, but I regret their lack of ambition
- yes, they have lowered the price point which lowers to a certain extent the entry point, but if you think of a typical 3-5 lenses set up vs the Fuji you are still much more expensive and prospects buyers understand that, I am not sure it makes that much of a difference
- I am not sure that people interested in a 5k$ 50mp body at this point in time will not wait for the next gen Fuji anyway. If they are price sensitive they will be super careful about what platform they invest in
- the GFX100 price point is not very far north of the X1D price point during the first year of its existence, so yes those interested arenít the majority but there are still many. Add to those the former H and XF crowd tired of the super narrow scope of usage of their 100mp wonder machine and you have a very significant niche with a direct positive halo effect on the whole GFX line up,
- had Hasselblad not shown their cards now they may have been able to indirectly slow down the launch succes of the Fuji, but now we are in for a tidal wave.
- believe it or not, a significant part of GFX100 buyers donít need the camera, they want it. Because itís new and the best toy in town. This effect works best in a blue ocean situation where there is no annoying doubt in a corner of your mind about the toy remaining the best long enough. Because itís still significant money and those buyers have money because they know the worth of it. This near impulse buy effect is very strong at launch and the decreases pretty quickly. I am just saying that Hasselblad has helped this blue ocean situation by making it clear that they would not be playing in the 100mp segment.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: The incomprehensible and absurd overpricing of the Fuji GFX-100
Post by: hubell on June 25, 2019, 06:13:25 pm
...the system in total (lenses) is so much more affordable than anything else and it beats anything else. I have no doubts it will be superior to any recent gen cameras from Phase or Hassi.


This is the kind of gross generalization that makes these discussions so ridiculous. It reflects a presumptuousness that you know what is best for every photographer.
However, I do agree that the GFX 100 is NOT overpriced when you compare what you are (probably) getting at the price.
Title: Re: The incomprehensible and absurd overpricing of the Fuji GFX-100
Post by: eronald on June 25, 2019, 06:32:13 pm
- believe it or not, a significant part of GFX100 buyers donít need the camera, they want it. Because itís new and the best toy in town. This effect works best in a blue ocean situation where there is no annoying doubt in a corner of your mind about the toy remaining the best long enough. Because itís still significant money and those buyers have money because they know the worth of it. This near impulse buy effect is very strong at launch and the decreases pretty quickly. I am just saying that Hasselblad has helped this blue ocean situation by making it clear that they would not be playing in the 100mp segment.

Cheers,
Bernard
Bernard,

That is the most interesting analysis by  of the buy impulse for high end photo gear that I have ever read.

However, I am sure the experts at Fuji understand most of this, but it served them badly:

  Instead of a Nikon F moment, they launched a luxury product. A waste of industrial design, and above all a terrible loss of one or two years initiative.  Fuji could have used a $6000 GFX100  to decisively claim the high MP pro and enthusiast market, by getting a camera into the hands of *every* interested photographer.

Edmund
Title: Re: The incomprehensible and absurd overpricing of the Fuji GFX-100
Post by: Dan Wells on June 25, 2019, 06:33:56 pm
How sure are you that the GFX 100 sensor is only ~$1000? There has historically been a size point where sensors become much more complex to manufacture, because they can't be imaged on the wafer in a single exposure. It had been under 24x36mm (I presume that's been fixed, since full-frame cameras have dropped so radically in cost) for many years. Years ago, Canon's APS-H sensor size was a response to this - it was the biggest sensor they could make without stitching on the wafer. Since there are now $1300 24x36mm cameras using current generation sensors, I'm guessing that those are easy to manufacture now.

I don't think medium-format sensors are single exposures? Of course the 50 MP sensor would have the same problem - but Sony could be selling through existing stocks of those (at a discounted price, because they recognize that they have to compete with the highest-end 24x36mm sensors) or they could be made on an older line that can't be switched to manufacturing the 100 MP sensor (or another newer sensor with a better margin per wafer). If it's made on an old line that has few other products, it's worth making as long as it covers the costs of the wafers and keeping the line running - while the 100 MP sensor has to compete with making many more, smaller sensors on the same machines.

For these and other reasons (I don't know about others since I'm not a chip designer), I could see the 100 MP sensor being several times as expensive as the 50 MP. Sony could also simply charge a much higher margin on the 100 MP part, because they know it has little competition. The 50 MP cameras have to compete with the A7rIII/D850/Z7/S1r complex - if they don't, they won't sell, since those cameras are competitive in image quality. This means that the sensor has to sell in at least somewhat the same price range, so that Fuji (and to a lesser extent Hasselblad) are looking at a bill of materials that lets them compete, even when they have some other parts (oversize shutter) that are more expensive.

The GFX 100, on the other hand, offers image quality that can only be matched or exceeded in two ways, both much more expensive. One is the Phase One and Hasselblad systems that cost multiples of its price. The second is 8x10" film - the equipment is relatively affordable, but color film is a minimum of $15 per sheet, with processing about the same again. Neither is anywhere near as convenient to use for many types of photography. Sony, knowing this, could be charging Fuji an enormous price for the sensor - and/or Fuji could be charging a much higher margin on the camera because the competition is so limited.

Whether or not either Fuji or Sony is getting an unusually high margin, the GFX 100 is a bargain compared to anything else with that level of image quality. How many people need that level of image quality is another question entirely. My Z7 (if you don't like Nikon, substitute A7rIII, GFX 50, X1D or S1r - it won't change the meaning of the sentence) can drive my 24" Canon Pro-2000 printer to its limits, and has resolution enough for an 8K display, too.  Anything above that is for 44" and 60" printers. How many photographers regularly print 40x60" and above for closely viewed display? I'm sure there are some, probably including several people on this forum. For them, the GFX 100 promises to be by far the most affordable access to a new level of image quality.

Title: Re: The incomprehensible and absurd overpricing of the Fuji GFX-100
Post by: faberryman on June 25, 2019, 06:34:34 pm
That is probably the most interesting analysis of the buy impulse for high end photo gear that I have ever read. There is a luxury marketing job waiting for you in Paris, or a car marketing job over in Stuttgart at BMW.
Seems like he was just stating the obvious to me. Maybe that's in short supply.
Title: Re: The incomprehensible and absurd overpricing of the Fuji GFX-100
Post by: hubell on June 25, 2019, 06:42:55 pm
A couple of points:
- had Hasselblad not shown their cards now they may have been able to indirectly slow down the launch succes of the Fuji, but now we are in for a tidal wave.
- believe it or not, a significant part of GFX100 buyers donít need the camera, they want it. Because itís new and the best toy in town. This effect works best in a blue ocean situation where there is no annoying doubt in a corner of your mind about the toy remaining the best long enough. Because itís still significant money and those buyers have money because they know the worth of it. This near impulse buy effect is very strong at launch and the decreases pretty quickly. I am just saying that Hasselblad has helped this blue ocean situation by making it clear that they would not be playing in the 100mp segment.

Cheers,
Bernard

A tidal wave? An impulse buy? Please remind me of the last camera that was the size and weight of the GFX 100 and that cost $10,000 where the sales were a "tidal wave"?
There is a big difference between a $4,000-$5,000 toy and a $10,000 toy. $5,000 is not a big stretch from a $3300 A7RIII or a comparable Nikon or Canon. $10,000 is.
Title: Re: The incomprehensible and absurd overpricing of the Fuji GFX-100
Post by: eronald on June 25, 2019, 06:43:24 pm
Seems like he was just stating the obvious to me. Maybe that's in short supply.

He stated it very well :)

Edmund
Title: Re: The incomprehensible and absurd overpricing of the Fuji GFX-100
Post by: eronald on June 25, 2019, 06:48:12 pm
A tidal wave? An impulse buy? Please remind me of the last camera that was the size and weight of the GFX 100 and that cost $10,000 where the sales were a "tidal wave"?
There is a big difference between a $4,000-$5,000 toy and a $10,000 toy. $10,000 is not a big stretch from a $3300 A7RIII or a comparable Nikon or Canon.

Actually, when Nikon brought out the Nikon F, it was a huge heavy monster compared to the Sony of the day, the Leica,, but its careful engineering and in then end accessible pricing made Nippon Kogaku into the owners of the  "system camera" for many years. My belief is that Fuji wasted such a moment once with the GFX-50S by bad design and now with the GFX100 by bad pricing. I don't think they'll get a third chance.

Edmund
Title: Re: The incomprehensible and absurd overpricing of the Fuji GFX-100
Post by: hubell on June 25, 2019, 06:51:32 pm
Whether you think the GFX 100 is overpriced or not (I don't), it's a fairly safe bet that it will be $7500 in six-12 months. How much is the Fuji XH-1 today compared to when it was first offered? The XT-2?
Title: Re: The incomprehensible and absurd overpricing of the Fuji GFX-100
Post by: FranciscoDisilvestro on June 25, 2019, 06:58:45 pm
The GFX 100 is not a commodity, price is not set by BOM cost.
Title: Re: The incomprehensible and absurd overpricing of the Fuji GFX-100
Post by: eronald on June 25, 2019, 07:02:57 pm
Whether you think the GFX 100 is overpriced or not (I don't), it's a fairly safe bet that it will be $7500 in six-12 months.


Hubell you are right. I wouldn't take that bet :)

And I think that doesn't matter any more- the  "luxury" tag will stay stuck to the GFX100, the camera now simply won't get the fast immediate buy-in which launches a "legend". When people understand that the price they pay is a no-brainer for that class of performance and that the product will be a major market force.

Sony understood the need to create a watershed moment, and provided breakthrough performance while pricing the A7 and especially A7R series impossibly low and pried open the ILC market which had been a C/N duopoly.

Edmund
Title: Re: The incomprehensible and absurd overpricing of the Fuji GFX-100
Post by: hcubell on June 25, 2019, 07:48:22 pm
The GFX 100 is not a commodity, price is not set by BOM cost.

Lots of R&D plus engineering and relatively few units to be sold for the GFX 100=high(er) price. Fuji will let the early adopters jump in and recover up front R&D and engineering, then slash the price. Nobody will complain.
Title: Re: The incomprehensible and absurd overpricing of the Fuji GFX-100
Post by: mcbroomf on June 25, 2019, 07:51:35 pm
Have to remember that if you're considering the GFX-100 and are switching or adding a new system that it's a lot more than the body to get a full system.  By my take I'd need to spend an additional $10k for lenses, battery, swivel EVF, to cover the range of interest (23mm - 250mm) even with the current discounts, about $500/ lens I think.  No doubt for some this is handily still in the impulse buy range but I'd think it pushes it out a good bit further for most.

I'm interested in this system myself but will wait for; good/clear reviews, Sony next evolution to high MP and it's review, a 100mp body with no IBIS (ie smaller and cheaper) for tripod use.  So saving pennies for a couple of years I think.
Title: Re: The incomprehensible and absurd overpricing of the Fuji GFX-100
Post by: eronald on June 25, 2019, 09:34:51 pm
Lots of R&D plus engineering and relatively few units to be sold for the GFX 100=high(er) price. Fuji will let the early adopters jump in and recover up front R&D and engineering, then slash the price. Nobody will complain.

By the time that happens, 35mm will be at 70MP, and the moment will be gone.

My take: the GFX100 release is a case of snatching Mediocrity from the jaws of Victory :)

Edmund
Title: Re: The incomprehensible and absurd overpricing of the Fuji GFX-100
Post by: BernardLanguillier on June 25, 2019, 10:29:46 pm
If I may, I believe that some here don't fully realize what is happening in Asia in terms of economic development.

The city of Shanghai alone is likely to eat up a significant chunck of the GFX100 production for months to come.

My guess is that this camera is going to sell in numbers measured in the tens of thousands over the 3 years of its shelves life.

The net benefit for photographers is that this is going to provide Fujifilm with enough cash to continue to develop the G platform.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: The incomprehensible and absurd overpricing of the Fuji GFX-100
Post by: Gigi on June 25, 2019, 10:43:35 pm
Like some others, I don't see the pricing of the GFX-100 as absurd. Compared with what it gives and where it fits in the market, seems about right. A premium over 50mp, but not in the Phase stratosphere. Yes, its disappointing its not priced lower for more "mass sales", but it can come down, can't go up.

Also, there is R&D to be paid for in this camera - and we have no idea how that figures into the pricing. So yes, I do wish it were cheaper, but not surprised.
Title: Re: The incomprehensible and absurd overpricing of the Fuji GFX-100
Post by: Rand47 on June 25, 2019, 10:46:15 pm
Edmund,

I think you may be very surprised.  It it, indeed, interesting times. 

Rand

Actually, when Nikon brought out the Nikon F, it was a huge heavy monster compared to the Sony of the day, the Leica,, but its careful engineering and in then end accessible pricing made Nippon Kogaku into the owners of the  "system camera" for many years. My belief is that Fuji wasted such a moment once with the GFX-50S by bad design and now with the GFX100 by bad pricing. I don't think they'll get a third chance.

Edmund
Title: Re: The incomprehensible and absurd overpricing of the Fuji GFX-100
Post by: SrMi on June 25, 2019, 11:46:38 pm
Well there is still the point of X1D lenses are much more expensive, without any benefit. (Except the 1% who need LS for flash.)

I personally donít think the GFX100 is overpriced. Certainly I would have preferred 7-8k, however, the system in total (lenses) is so much more affordable than anything else and it beats anything else. I have no doubts it will be superior to any recent gen cameras from Phase or Hassi.

Im also sure we will see a 100MP S version without IBIS around 6k sooner rather then later.

The benefit of some X1D lenses is that they are lighter and smaller, I do not know about any quality difference when compared with Fuji lenses. But their main advantage is that they work very well with X1D bodies :).

I would have preferred a GFX100 with no IBIS and no video (cooling issues?) which would have made it smaller and lighter (and cheaper).
Title: Re: The incomprehensible and absurd overpricing of the Fuji GFX-100
Post by: BJL on June 26, 2019, 02:36:32 am
About the cost of the 100MP 44x33 sensor to Fujifilm, I think Edmund is being very optimistic (as usual).

One point is that a few years ago Canon introduced a stepper/scanner that can make sensors up to just over 36x24mm without on-wafer stitching, so the big cost barrier that used to separate APS-C (and Canonís intermediate ďAPS-HĒ format) sensors from 36x24 is now instead between 24x36 and 33x44.

Update; a reference: https://global.canon/en/product/indtech/semicon/fpa6300esw.html
The size limit is 33x42.2; was it wickedly chosen to exclude 33x44, which in turn was perhaps chosen as the biggest 4:3 that can be made on the former largest field size of 26x33mm with a single stitch, avoiding the 2D stitching needed for 53.4x40 sensors? Will one-stitch 42x56 sensors (true 645 full frame) be the next big thing!?

Also, the volume will optimistically be in the tens of thousands, whereas the entry-level 24 MP 24x36 sensors could sell about a million. If R&D costs are a few tens of millions, the cost recovery part of the factory door sensor price could be in the tens of dollars for the 24 MP 24x36 but in the thousands for any new 33x44 (and many thousands for any new 54x40, in an even lower volume market).

For a hint how factors like sales volume effect price, the big price premium for 24x36 cameras with higher pixel counts over those in the higher volume 24MP sector is suggestive. Edmund might suggest that cameras like the Nikon Z7 are only lower volume sellers due to ďincomprehensible and absurd overpricingĒ, but on price-volume, I think he gets it back-to-front.
Title: Re: The incomprehensible and absurd overpricing of the Fuji GFX-100
Post by: Christopher on June 26, 2019, 02:59:08 am
This is the kind of gross generalization that makes these discussions so ridiculous. It reflects a presumptuousness that you know what is best for every photographer.
However, I do agree that the GFX 100 is NOT overpriced when you compare what you are (probably) getting at the price.

I donít get your problem.... itís a fact that nearly all GFX lenses perform better than any current Hasselblad H lenses, which in my opinion arenít as good as some the modern Phase One lenses. I own most Phase One lenses as good copies and most canít match any of the GFX lenses especially wide open.

Sure one has to see how they perform on 100Mp vs 50, however, I know that the same weaknesses my phase one lens show on the Iq4150 are there on the IQ3100, just a lot less.

And before you ask again, I have used some H lenses on the GFX and they were not coming close to the native lenses.

So with all due respect, the only part making this discussion so ridiculous is your own comment about how ridiculous it is...
Title: Re: The incomprehensible and absurd overpricing of the Fuji GFX-100
Post by: Rob C on June 26, 2019, 06:33:40 am
It is my belief - founded on my 40 year old education in IC design, that chips are priced by surface. (The root cause of this is that defects follow a Poisson statistic).

Hence the cost of a 50Mp or a 100MP 44x33 chip do not differ vey significantly.

Which makes me think that the cost to Fuji of a 44x33 chip is well under $1K, and makes the pricing of the GFX100 completely incomprehensible, a more reasonable expectation of pricing would be somewhere north of $5K where we find the other "pro" Nikon and Canon bodies ... and the Hasselblad X1DII.

I think Fuji may have been indulging in a bit of puffery with the overlarge and shiny booster body and noisy launch PR, and we can expect some quick steps downwards as soon as the first wave of impulse buying subsides.

The positioning of the GFX100 in the Fuji line, as a straight jump up from APS-C is very smart. However it becomes less clever when the price differential between APS-C flagship and the crop MF flagship is 4x rather than 2x.

I intend no disrespect to Fuji, nor to the GFX100 which seems an excellent photographic device, but the discussion of pricing has always been a prerogative of the consumer.

Edmund

Your last sentence there explains the resulting flack: nobody likes to think they have paid more than something is worth.

There's no doubt that almost every product has its own band of realities: those willing and able to pay top money for a camera will probably think they have bought a jewel, and that for everyone who complains it's simply sour grapes. Could well be in many cases, but not always.

You later mentiond the Nikon F. It was the first new camera brand upgrade I bought when I went solo. I had an Exakta, also bought new, when I was still an amateur, but exposure to the F and Leica M3 came at my last place of employment. The man who owned the studio used that Leica for just one job: shooting room sets for BBC tv shows made in Glasgow. And he used one lens for those: a 21mm. Everything else for which he used 135 film was on the Nikon.

Later in my own career I could easily have bought into Leica M or even R, but I never did. Leica reflex cameras were always behind the game, especially when it came to viewfinders not showing 100% of the image. As for the M bodies, not much use for my style of work.

And yet, and yet, Leica were more expensive than the better Nikons even though obviously not as advanced in common, ordinary but essential features as mentioned.

It just confirms that high price becomes the top concern of those wanting to buy into prestige. They will never admit to you that pride plays the part that it does. Step into the world of yachts and the game remains the same but at levels that leave the camera companies looking like charities.

In the final analysis, if someone can and wants to overbuy, that's perfectly okay, but it does not imply that person has always made the "logical" choice, but hey, they don't have to, but let them just be honest and admit to their rationale rather than go through infinite convolutions trying to justify expensive wanking.

:-)
Title: Re: The incomprehensible and absurd overpricing of the Fuji GFX-100
Post by: 32BT on June 26, 2019, 06:47:28 am
Your last sentence there explains the resulting flack: nobody likes to think they have paid more than something is worth.

There's no doubt that almost every product has its own band of realities: those willing and able to pay top money for a camera will probably think they have bought a jewel, and that for everyone who complains it's simply sour grapes. Could well be in many cases, but not always.

You later mentiond the Nikon F. It was the first new camera brand upgrade I bought when I went solo. I had an Exakta, also bought new, when I was still an amateur, but exposure to the F and Leica M3 came at my last place of employment. The man who owned the studio used that Leica for just one job: shooting room sets for BBC tv shows made in Glasgow. And he used one lens for those: a 21mm. Everything else for which he used 135 film was on the Nikon.

Later in my own career I could easily have bought into Leica M or even R, but I never did. Leica reflex cameras were always behind the game, especially when it came to viewfinders not showing 100% of the image. As for the M bodies, not much use for my style of work.

And yet, and yet, Leica were more expensive than the better Nikons even though obviously not as advanced in common, ordinary but essential features as mentioned.

It just confirms that high price becomes the top concern of those wanting to buy into prestige. They will never admit to you that pride plays the part that it does. Step into the world of yachts and the game remains the same but at levels that leave the camera companies looking like charities.

In the final analysis, if someone can and wants to overbuy, that's perfectly okay, but it does not imply that person has always made the "logical" choice, but hey, they don't have to, but let them just be honest and admit to their rationale rather than go through infinite convolutions trying to justify expensive wanking.

:-)

But Rob, I know that you know, but it may merit repeating: back in the days of the film cameras, the choice of film was infinitely more important for your final look, than the choice of camera.

Clearly, that is not the case in this day and age. Your choice of camera as a tool to achieve a certain result including look and aesthetic, or under what circumstances the tool will be used, has become far more relevant today. Your choice of camera locks you in, because it is both expensive and limited. Of course, you get the increased flexibility of post-processing, but that doesn't change the conundrum of the tool itself.

As for expensive wanking: one can always try an upscale escort service... (that is, rent an expensive camera/lens combo, in case anyone misunderstood.)
Title: Re: The incomprehensible and absurd overpricing of the Fuji GFX-100
Post by: eronald on June 26, 2019, 06:59:10 am
BJL,

 Yes the glass is half full :) The debate about the max stepper size is an old one, and in fact in the past Canon always publicly acknowledged that they had some humongous stepper of their own manufacture, but usually for an old process feature size.

 My feeling is that there are some larger custom steppers floating around, self constructed at Canon, or made to order for some like Sony (maybe by Nikon?), but that this is a non-problem because by now the industry so frequently needs large chips that there are accepted workarounds.

 As regards research costs etc, I had a talk some years ago with the CEO of Aptina, when that company was sill around. I guess he had an understanding of the industry. He told me that basically everything is now driven by cellphones, and the research is done for that purpose and amortized there with hundreds of millions of sensors; in his view its is the innovation made in cellphones that then gets recycled upstream.

 As we are having a tech discussion, I guess I'm allowed to say that sensors are a bit like (maybe even derived from) the RAM I was taught about in school, a type of IC that can be made by a few good designers and very very careful process control. Because the actual design is actually all about the basic cell and some control circuits on the periphery, and a small standout design team of a few people can create good cells in comparatively little time, and I guess when it works it really works (no hard bugs). The process control is where you get your yield, where the real battle is fought.

 I don't think the incremental design cost of a new sensor that iterates an existing cell structure for a tested process is much more than 3 people 3-4 months. Call it 1 million dollars.

 Assume this is about "Sony" sensors, with Sony control logic, from the "Sony" internal cell library (not a Nikon special or such). We've all been there, at least in the hacker movies, right?  You have your cell library, you lay out the core with the sensor cell array, and decide what readouts and control logic to fit where on the edges, and as long as you're careful to stay within the functions with which your colleagues populated the library, I guess you're ok you get your base functionality. Then -I'm guessing- you have to figure out clocking and frame rate issues, and change the layout for better clock distribution  and cleaner signal readouts and noise immunity, and all that analog stuff  (I sure don't understand al those buzzwords but they sound good). I guess the simulator will tell you how well the chip is working, and testing will tell you more, but by the time your team has done this a few times you don't get many surprises - after all this is what your company does for a living! If something isn't working as well as it should, and it's a bottleneck, you try and locate the engineer who designed that cell in the library, and maybe ask for a budget and tune the cell. There are probably regular test wafers run through a running process, so the designers can get fairly quick ground truth  on what they're doing.

 I think that large run-of-the-mill inhouse sensors at Sony are not now any more painful or more expensive to design than any other type of ASIC, at least for their emloyees who do this on a regular basis. The "research cost" is actually derived from the time of the engineers who use the cell library, engineering workstations and simulators, and testing facilities. I believe that the cell library and process are already almost completely determined by the cellphone trade. There is little R&D going on here, just a commercial decision on what products can be economically offered to best capitalise on base development costs that have already been written off.

 In summary as I see it -possibly wrongly- a new large chip is *today* a specs sheet fleshed out by a few months work by a small team. The cost of the chip is basically "just" fab and testing cost.  It didn't use to be that way, before cellphones came along, the camera industry had to pay for basic camera chip R&D in those days, and even worse, camera designers had to deal with a host of analog design issues which couldn't be resolved quickly. Sony's drop-in sensor technology has done away with those days when engineers really needed to engineer.


Edmund

PS. I don't know why the 40Mp cameras are more expensive than the 20MP class, but my feeling is that this is partly because of a lower volume part, partly because a newer process needs to be used, partly because of yield issues involving the CFA and more recent equipment being necessary for the CFA, but above all because of a historical industry mantra that cameras are priced by the Megapixels, just as computers used to be priced by the basic clock rate, and now by the number of cores. A price signal has been adopted because the consumer is willing to accept it. And also companies need a high-priced model made of unobtanium to get consumers to value the midrange, and also to demonstrate and market-test new features - think of the motor drive in film-camera days. This is my feeling, maybe someone in the know will speak.




About the cost of the 100MP 44x33 sensor to Fujifilm, I think Edmund is being very optimistic (as usual).

One point is that a few years ago Canon introduced a stepper/scanner that can make sensors up to just over 36x24mm without on-wafer stitching, so the big cost barrier that used to separate APS-C (and Canonís intermediate ďAPS-HĒ format) sensors from 36x24 is now instead between 24x36 and 33x44.

Update; a reference: https://global.canon/en/product/indtech/semicon/fpa6300esw.html
The size limit is 33x42.2; was it wickedly chosen to exclude 33x44, which in turn was perhaps chosen as the biggest 4:3 that can be made on the former largest field size of 26x33mm with a single stitch, avoiding the 2D stitching needed for 53.4x40 sensors? Will one-stitch 42x56 sensors (true 645 full frame) be the next big thing!?

Also, the volume will optimistically be in the tens of thousands, whereas the entry-level 24 MP 24x36 sensors could sell about a million. If R&D costs are a few tens of millions, the cost recovery part of the factory door sensor price could be in the tens of dollars for the 24 MP 24x36 but in the thousands for any new 33x44 (and many thousands for any new 54x40, in an even lower volume market).

For a hint how factors like sales volume effect price, the big price premium for 24x36 cameras with higher pixel counts over those in the higher volume 24MP sector is suggestive. Edmund might suggest that cameras like the Nikon Z7 are only lower volume sellers due to ďincomprehensible and absurd overpricingĒ, but on price-volume, I think he gets it back-to-front.
Title: Re: The incomprehensible and absurd overpricing of the Fuji GFX-100
Post by: eronald on June 26, 2019, 08:20:43 am
Rob,

 Yes, people here are strongly defending the high price, and you may well be right about the reasons.

 I'm not surprised you had a Nikon F - for any pro it was a no-brainer, a camera whose workflow could be adapted to deal up to a limit with any photographic problem. Except silent photography :) This is why the Nikon F defined location photography for 40 years.

 Interestingly, a Canon rep told me some time ago that local pros (marriage schools etc) weren't buying the "pro" Canon bodies any more, due to being too poor, and going for prosumer models or even crop-frame instead. While amateurs were getting the stylish and prestigious 1D series "pro" bodies, and the Canon division in charge of prosumers was getting angry about what they viewed as poaching :)

I'm afraid the same will happen to the GFX-100 at this high price, pros won't get a $20K loan to buy the GFX and  lenses, they will just get the Sony A7R3 with the money on their account, and use the savings for their assistant's payroll, and amateur landscape shooters will get the GFX, until they turn to something more shiny and the wonderful Fuji system becomes a footnote in photo history.

My belief is that Fuji's high-pricing the GFX-100 will be counterproductive in the medium term.

Edmund


Your last sentence there explains the resulting flack: nobody likes to think they have paid more than something is worth.

There's no doubt that almost every product has its own band of realities: those willing and able to pay top money for a camera will probably think they have bought a jewel, and that for everyone who complains it's simply sour grapes. Could well be in many cases, but not always.

You later mentiond the Nikon F. It was the first new camera brand upgrade I bought when I went solo. I had an Exakta, also bought new, when I was still an amateur, but exposure to the F and Leica M3 came at my last place of employment. The man who owned the studio used that Leica for just one job: shooting room sets for BBC tv shows made in Glasgow. And he used one lens for those: a 21mm. Everything else for which he used 135 film was on the Nikon.

Later in my own career I could easily have bought into Leica M or even R, but I never did. Leica reflex cameras were always behind the game, especially when it came to viewfinders not showing 100% of the image. As for the M bodies, not much use for my style of work.

And yet, and yet, Leica were more expensive than the better Nikons even though obviously not as advanced in common, ordinary but essential features as mentioned.

It just confirms that high price becomes the top concern of those wanting to buy into prestige. They will never admit to you that pride plays the part that it does. Step into the world of yachts and the game remains the same but at levels that leave the camera companies looking like charities.

In the final analysis, if someone can and wants to overbuy, that's perfectly okay, but it does not imply that person has always made the "logical" choice, but hey, they don't have to, but let them just be honest and admit to their rationale rather than go through infinite convolutions trying to justify expensive wanking.

:-)
Title: Re: The incomprehensible and absurd overpricing of the Fuji GFX-100
Post by: Rob C on June 26, 2019, 09:06:15 am
Rob,

 Yes, people here are strongly defending the high price, and you may well be right about the reasons.

 I'm not surprised you had a Nikon F - for any pro it was a no-brainer, a camera whose workflow could be adapted to deal up to a limit with any photographic problem. Except silent photography :) This is why the Nikon F defined location photography for 40 years.

 Interestingly, a Canon rep told me some time ago that local pros (marriage schools etc) weren't buying the "pro" Canon bodies any more, due to being too poor, and going for prosumer models or even crop-frame instead. While amateurs were getting the stylish and prestigious 1D series "pro" bodies, and the Canon division in charge of prosumers was getting angry about what they viewed as poaching :)

I'm afraid the same will happen to the GFX-100 at this high price, pros won't get a $20K loan to buy the GFX and  lenses, they will just get the Sony A7R3 with the money on their account, and use the savings for their assistant's payroll, and amateur landscape shooters will get the GFX, until they turn to something more shiny and the wonderful Fuji system becomes a footnote in photo history.

My belief is that Fuji's high-pricing the GFX-100 will be counterproductive in the medium term.

Edmund


The thing is, Edmund, that I have no horse in this race, nor dog in any fight: I long retired, and my buying ability gradually reduced to what serves for the little I actually ever do these days. And VAT is no longer recoverable. That being the case, it's relatively easy to be dispassionate and pretty objective about many things photographic.

As Oscar pointed out, film was a different equation. However, even then, all Nikons were not born equal.

The F, the F2 and so forth remained the fllagships of their day, but I also had to get a cheapo FM and FM2 for one thing: a tiny shutter speed higher flash synch. There must have been a good engineering reason why this was the case. A vertically running shutter was one reason. Nikon never did claim them to be as good as the top line; it was funny reading those who thought those FM and FM2 cameras to be as good. Heysoos, they even sounded cheap! And worse, I am certain that those synched shots were never as crisp (always on tripod) as from the top bodies. All in all, it was another reason why if confronted with a need for fill, I'd try to use a reflector instead of the other bodies.

There are advantages and disadvantages with all changes. Leica admits that the ancient cloth shutters always were and remain the more silent. Changes in one direction bring changes in another: nature's equilibrium. Funny how it's all repeats itself in the climate change "discussions"!
Title: Re: The incomprehensible and absurd overpricing of the Fuji GFX-100
Post by: Martin Kristiansen on June 26, 2019, 09:23:04 am
Rob,

 Yes, people here are strongly defending the high price, and you may well be right about the reasons.

 I'm not surprised you had a Nikon F - for any pro it was a no-brainer, a camera whose workflow could be adapted to deal up to a limit with any photographic problem. Except silent photography :) This is why the Nikon F defined location photography for 40 years.

 Interestingly, a Canon rep told me some time ago that local pros (marriage schools etc) weren't buying the "pro" Canon bodies any more, due to being too poor, and going for prosumer models or even crop-frame instead. While amateurs were getting the stylish and prestigious 1D series "pro" bodies, and the Canon division in charge of prosumers was getting angry about what they viewed as poaching :)

I'm afraid the same will happen to the GFX-100 at this high price, pros won't get a $20K loan to buy the GFX and  lenses, they will just get the Sony A7R3 with the money on their account, and use the savings for their assistant's payroll, and amateur landscape shooters will get the GFX, until they turn to something more shiny and the wonderful Fuji system becomes a footnote in photo history.

My belief is that Fuji's high-pricing the GFX-100 will be counterproductive in the medium term.

Edmund

As a working photographer I actually got out of MF after the 80 MP leaf. The Aptus 12R. Nice camera. I had traded the Aptus 7 in on the 12. And the Valeo22 in on the Aptus 7. Leaf had offered a trade in on any back to their Valeo and I had traded in a Kodak Proback 16 MP square CCD. All through this DSLR had been getting more and more capable. Went from a 1,4 MP DCS420 to the 6MP 460 then the DCS 560 then 1DS and 1DS ii.  DSLR chasing MFD further and further up the MP chain. Then the MP thing suddenly became irrelevant.

Going to the Aptus12R was a mistake. Waste of money and time. Within a year clients stopped asking about MP and were suddenly asking for more location work, faster set up and breakdown and the assumption with them seemed to be that the MP war was over and it was enough. Shooting with the Leaf was like peeing yourself while wearing a dark suit. Gave you a nice warm feeling but untilyou pointed it out to someone they just never noticed.

And that takes me to the newest offerings. The new Fuji will never be as fast, convenient and easy to handle as say an A9 or D5. All it has to offer is more pixels, higher IQ. If your USP is blistering IQ above all else then someone will turn up with a 150MP Phase back and eat your lunch. Itís a competition out there. If you need to get a ballet dancer in full flight in a construction site(last months challenge) then the High performance 35mm bodies will eat your lunch. So not the ultimate in quality and not the ultimate in performance. Itís a fence sitter from my point of view. I canít sell it, partly I suppose because I donít believe in it. Even in the old days I shot 35 mm or 4X5 so it could be just my attitude.

Now if I was a well heeled first world citizen with time and money to spare the Fuji would be terrific. I wouldnít care about the price. It would be for me. I can only talk from my business space at the moment. The Fuji offers nothing I can use at almost any price. If it was priced cheaper than the A7Riii I would still buy the Sony. I wouldnít get a single extra job for those extra MP.
Title: Re: The incomprehensible and absurd overpricing of the Fuji GFX-100
Post by: BJL on June 26, 2019, 09:47:29 am
Edmund, letís put aside fantasies about ďsecret steppersĒ and look at what Canon has actually said:
- back when Canon made a low resolution stepper with 50x50mm field size, it explicitly said that its 36x24mm sensors needed to be made with stitching and that its roughly 30x20mm ďAPS-HĒ sensors were the largest that could be made without stitching. (And why else did Canon bother with that intermediate size in some quite expensive high frame-rate models?)
- Canon now says quite explicitly that its new 33x42.2mm stepper with 120nm feature size (far smaller than in the old 50x50mm models) makes it possible for the first time to make 36x24mm CMOS sensors without stitching (see my link above); a significant advantage for yield and thus cost.
- That new stepperís field size is a bit too small for 33x44mm sensors, so unless Sony, Fujifilm and Hasselblad are all lying about sensor size, they require stitching.

Glib cynicism about overpricing is popular on the Internet, and difficult to refute, but is particularly unpersuasive when directed at the company that is unrivalled in pushing prices down in the ďfuller frameĒ >36x24 format sector.
Title: Re: The incomprehensible and absurd overpricing of the Fuji GFX-100
Post by: chez on June 26, 2019, 10:52:01 am
If I may, I believe that some here don't fully realize what is happening in Asia in terms of economic development.

The city of Shanghai alone is likely to eat up a significant chunck of the GFX100 production for months to come.

My guess is that this camera is going to sell in numbers measured in the tens of thousands over the 3 years of its shelves life.

The net benefit for photographers is that this is going to provide Fujifilm with enough cash to continue to develop the G platform.

Cheers,
Bernard

Bernard the Instax line of film based equipment is what is driving the revenue for Fuji with distant APS-C cameras and hugely distant medium format system. Just take a look at their investors relations.

So to think the luxury ( means low volume ) GFX100 is going to drive revenue at Fuji is very comical.
Title: Re: The incomprehensible and absurd overpricing of the Fuji GFX-100
Post by: hubell on June 26, 2019, 12:10:32 pm
Bernard the Instax line of film based equipment is what is driving the revenue for Fuji with distant APS-C cameras and hugely distant medium format system. Just take a look at their investors relations.

So to think the luxury ( means low volume ) GFX100 is going to drive revenue at Fuji is very comical.

I hate when reality intrudes.
Title: Re: The incomprehensible and absurd overpricing of the Fuji GFX-100
Post by: BJL on June 26, 2019, 01:05:43 pm
Chez, I agree: the GFX100 might well become the best-selling 100MP+ camera of all time, but will still contribute a very small part of Fujifilmís camera revenues and profits. Some people strangely resist the idea that the lower end of the (ILC) camera market is where the revenues and profits are concentrated. (The D3400 in the case of Nikon ILCs)
Title: Re: The incomprehensible and absurd overpricing of the Fuji GFX-100
Post by: 32BT on June 26, 2019, 01:10:42 pm
Bernard the Instax line of film based equipment is what is driving the revenue for Fuji with distant APS-C cameras and hugely distant medium format system. Just take a look at their investors relations.

So to think the luxury ( means low volume ) GFX100 is going to drive revenue at Fuji is very comical.


to quote the financial report:

Quote
In the Imaging Solutions segment, consolidated revenue amounted to •386.9 billion (up 1.0% from the previous fiscal year), due to a solid sales increase in all businesses.

In the electronic imaging field of the optical device and electronic imaging business, sales were strong for FUJIFILM X-T3, which has high-speed, high-precision auto focus function and high video function, and FUJIFILM X-T30, which has a small and light body with high performances, launched in March 2019. FUJIFILM GFX 50R, a medium format mirrorless digital camera, showed strong sales reflecting good reviews on its ultrahigh image quality incorporating a large sensor and its adoption of range finder style. As a result, overall revenue of mirrorless digital cameras increased from the previous fiscal year despite the downward trend in the digital camera market in the fiscal year 2018. The sales of interchangeable lenses also increased accordingly.

Instax isn't even counted in their "optical device and electronic imaging business" as they consider it a printing solution.

Plus, I don't believe Bernard suggested that ALL of Fuji's revenue is driven by GFX sales. That wasn't the point at all.
Title: Re: The incomprehensible and absurd overpricing of the Fuji GFX-100
Post by: BernardLanguillier on June 26, 2019, 05:07:53 pm
I hate when reality intrudes.

You are way smarter than that, please.

Anyone with minimal corporate experience will know that profitability by product range is a very important KPI.

And it seems very likely that the GFX100 will be very successful and will therefore be a major contributor to the success and profitability of Fujiís MF series of products.

That means decisions to invest more into lenses,...

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: The incomprehensible and absurd overpricing of the Fuji GFX-100
Post by: BernardLanguillier on June 26, 2019, 05:52:15 pm
Plus, I don't believe Bernard suggested that ALL of Fuji's revenue is driven by GFX sales. That wasn't the point at all.

Indeed, I wasnít. Thank you.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: The incomprehensible and absurd overpricing of the Fuji GFX-100
Post by: hogloff on June 26, 2019, 06:20:22 pm

to quote the financial report:

Instax isn't even counted in their "optical device and electronic imaging business" as they consider it a printing solution.

Plus, I don't believe Bernard suggested that ALL of Fuji's revenue is driven by GFX sales. That wasn't the point at all.

There are 3 business units in Fuji and one of them is the Imaging Solutions which contains electronic imaging, optical devices and photo imaging.

The electronic imaging ( which is the digital camera and lenses ) makes up less than 25% of the revenue for this business unit...the most is made through photo imaging where a big part is from the instant camera. Now from that 25% revenue I venture to think less than 10% comes from Medium format so 2.5% of the revenue for this business unit. Hard to see how Medium format revenue can drive this business unit.
Title: Re: The incomprehensible and absurd overpricing of the Fuji GFX-100
Post by: hogloff on June 26, 2019, 06:27:07 pm
You are way smarter than that, please.

Anyone with minimal corporate experience will know that profitability by product range is a very important KPI.

And it seems very likely that the GFX100 will be very successful and will therefore be a major contributor to the success and profitability of Fujiís MF series of products.

That means decisions to invest more into lenses,...

Cheers,
Bernard

Possibly...or maybe invest even more in their APS-C line as that brings in even more revenue and I would think profits. Or possibly invest even more in the instax line which from their investors report, they invested a lot of advertising and promotional money in instax this last year.

One thing for certain is that Fuji definitely needs to keep the other parts of the Imaging Solutions business unit going as medium format is just a very small piece of that pie. It would be disastrous if their Instax products started dropping as right now it brings in nearly 2/3 of the revenue for the business unit.
Title: Re: The incomprehensible and absurd overpricing of the Fuji GFX-100
Post by: 32BT on June 26, 2019, 07:46:53 pm
There are 3 business units in Fuji and one of them is the Imaging Solutions which contains electronic imaging, optical devices and photo imaging.

The electronic imaging ( which is the digital camera and lenses ) makes up less than 25% of the revenue for this business unit...the most is made through photo imaging where a big part is from the instant camera. Now from that 25% revenue I venture to think less than 10% comes from Medium format so 2.5% of the revenue for this business unit. Hard to see how Medium format revenue can drive this business unit.

Nothing of the sort was suggested.

The contention was that sales of the new mf camera will ensure development of the platform.

Nobody denied aps-c sales
Nobody denied instax sales



Title: Re: The incomprehensible and absurd overpricing of the Fuji GFX-100
Post by: 32BT on June 26, 2019, 07:57:50 pm
Possibly...or maybe invest even more in their APS-C line as that brings in even more revenue and I would think profits. Or possibly invest even more in the instax line which from their investors report, they invested a lot of advertising and promotional money in instax this last year.

One thing for certain is that Fuji definitely needs to keep the other parts of the Imaging Solutions business unit going as medium format is just a very small piece of that pie. It would be disastrous if their Instax products started dropping as right now it brings in nearly 2/3 of the revenue for the business unit.

The bu makes a little south of 400 billion yen, they've sold 10million units instax. Thus roughly 1/4, not 2/3. In addition, if that 1/4 revenue eats up the majority of the advertising budget because of celeb deals, I don't see how that can be considered a profitable driver. It's not like the instax cameras are long term product investments for potential customers that also guarantee future lens purchases.

Title: Re: The incomprehensible and absurd overpricing of the Fuji GFX-100
Post by: DP on June 26, 2019, 07:58:32 pm
but there is significant R&D investment here with first ever MF pdaf

there is nothing about PDAF on sensor that is different for MF vs APS-C  ;D ... 

, first ever MF IBIS

looking @ first ever APS-C, 43/m43 or FF IBIS systems that will be peanuts...

, a platform supporting 5fps at 100mp... that has to be accounted for.

20.4mp @ 60 fps from E-M1X is a much bigger feat that 102mp @ 5fps
Title: Re: The incomprehensible and absurd overpricing of the Fuji GFX-100
Post by: DP on June 26, 2019, 08:05:24 pm
that also guarantee future lens purchases.
they guarantee future razor blades ...sorry...  film packs sales... which unlike lens must be replaced much sooner and in a bigger quantities... and they don't need any warranty services, do they ?
Title: Re: The incomprehensible and absurd overpricing of the Fuji GFX-100
Post by: chez on June 26, 2019, 08:08:51 pm
Nothing of the sort was suggested.

The contention was that sales of the new mf camera will ensure development of the platform.

Nobody denied aps-c sales
Nobody denied instax sales

Not necessarily so. When R&D funds are allocated, all product lines are looked at and the ones with the most promise ( revenue and / or OI ) get the funds. I lived my entire working life in a product development environment and every year no matter what company I was part of, we'd look at ROI when distributing R&D dollars.

It's obvious that Fuji felt spending a bundle on promoting Instax last year was worth the investment.
Title: Re: The incomprehensible and absurd overpricing of the Fuji GFX-100
Post by: chez on June 26, 2019, 08:12:13 pm
The bu makes a little south of 400 billion yen, they've sold 10million units instax. Thus roughly 1/4, not 2/3. In addition, if that 1/4 revenue eats up the majority of the advertising budget because of celeb deals, I don't see how that can be considered a profitable driver. It's not like the instax cameras are long term product investments for potential customers that also guarantee future lens purchases.

No...but there are repeat customers. Once your Instax is used up...you need another.

I have no idea the margins on Instax cameras versus APS-C cameras versus MF cameras...but let's not forget the huge R&D costs associated with MF that needs to be paid off. With Instax...they've been paid long ago...the rest is gravy.

If Instax is 1/4 of the revenue, what do you think MF is?
Title: Re: The incomprehensible and absurd overpricing of the Fuji GFX-100
Post by: 32BT on June 26, 2019, 08:13:26 pm
they guarantee future razor blades ...sorry...  film packs sales... which unlike lens must be replaced much sooner and in a bigger quantities... and they don't need any warranty services, do they ?

Haha, true. But how many razorblades do you need to sell to compensate one mf lens sale?
(And the warranty isn't necessary because people likely don't use it long enough to break it...)
Title: Re: The incomprehensible and absurd overpricing of the Fuji GFX-100
Post by: DP on June 26, 2019, 08:18:03 pm
Haha, true. But how many razorblades do you need to sell to compensate one mf lens sale?


check prices for instax film packs * how many magnitudes more Fuji sells instax cameras... it is where the money are... like with printing money are not in printers

Title: Re: The incomprehensible and absurd overpricing of the Fuji GFX-100
Post by: 32BT on June 26, 2019, 08:50:03 pm
No...but there are repeat customers. Once your Instax is used up...you need another.

I have no idea the margins on Instax cameras versus APS-C cameras versus MF cameras...but let's not forget the huge R&D costs associated with MF that needs to be paid off. With Instax...they've been paid long ago...the rest is gravy.

If Instax is 1/4 of the revenue, what do you think MF is?

I don't have a clue tbh. 5k x units sold + some additional lenses, say on avg (usd) 10k per customer @ 10k customers makes roughly 10bn yen.

If those numbers remotely make sense, then your 2.5% would not be unreasonable.
Title: Re: The incomprehensible and absurd overpricing of the Fuji GFX-100
Post by: 32BT on June 26, 2019, 08:52:09 pm


check prices for instax film packs * how many magnitudes more Fuji sells instax cameras... it is where the money are... like with printing money are not in printers

Ah, yes, printing inks. Wasn't that like 99% water?
Title: Re: The incomprehensible and absurd overpricing of the Fuji GFX-100
Post by: hogloff on June 26, 2019, 10:14:02 pm
Haha, true. But how many razorblades do you need to sell to compensate one mf lens sale?
(And the warranty isn't necessary because people likely don't use it long enough to break it...)

What's the R&D cost to pay off on that lens? How many lens does Fuji need to sell to break even?

The instax cameras have long ago paid off the meager R&D costs...now it's gravy.

If one thinks Fuji can survive without the low end Instax and APS-C cameras / lenses...just living off MF...good luck.
Title: Re: The incomprehensible and absurd overpricing of the Fuji GFX-100
Post by: BernardLanguillier on June 26, 2019, 11:09:01 pm
Haveít we gone from discussing the price/success of the GFX100 to discussing the relevance of selling anything that doesnít sell in millions of units?

- Why has Fuji decided to enter MF again?
- What could be a measure of their success in doing so?
- How is the GFX100 helping them achieve this success?
- is the right price point for the GFX100 driven by costs or by perceived value?
- is the perceived value of the GFX best assessed by the billions of people who will not buy one or be the x0,000s of people who will buy one?

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: The incomprehensible and absurd overpricing of the Fuji GFX-100
Post by: Joe Towner on June 26, 2019, 11:55:07 pm
Fuji has always been in MF, it's just been sold as Hasselblad for the last decade plus.  They were selling plenty of their APS-C mirrorless cameras, and saw how crowded the 35mm FF game was.  The Sony 33x44 chip gave them a different game, where there are margins, and when they weren't able to be the lens vendor for Hasselblad, they went the path alone.

The GFX 50s & 50r are priced great - there is no downward pressure.  The GFX100 has no equal and is a huge bargain, there are 2 platforms at 100mp, both being the full frame Hass & Phase, but neither have IBIS, 5fps or BSI wiring.  The IQ4 150mp is a different beast that isn't part of this discussion.

Japanese companies are interesting in how they approach flagship products.  It's a huge amount of pride & I wouldn't be surprised the GFX 100 getting camera of the year from most if not all publications.  The value of this far exceeds the profits.

Perceived value is a year or so off - we need lots of shooters who have their work product up and seen by the commercial market to help communicate the differences.  It will be there, but it takes time.  What will be interesting is seeing how many folks get a first taste with the GFX 100 & then step up to the 150mp Phase.

-Joe
Title: Re: The incomprehensible and absurd overpricing of the Fuji GFX-100
Post by: 32BT on June 27, 2019, 02:35:47 am
What's the R&D cost to pay off on that lens? How many lens does Fuji need to sell to break even?

The instax cameras have long ago paid off the meager R&D costs...now it's gravy.

If one thinks Fuji can survive without the low end Instax and APS-C cameras / lenses...just living off MF...good luck.

Actually, I think the bulk of the R&D has been consumed elsewhere in both instances. For instax in print, for lenses in medical and copiers.


If one thinks Fuji can survive without the low end Instax and APS-C cameras / lenses...just living off MF...good luck.

The entire imaging bu including instax, apsc, mf, photoprint etc, only represents 15% of Fuji's total revenue. That company is gigantic. Nobody is or was saying Fuji can survive on mf alone. Let's just be glad that that bu is currently deemed profitable somehow (distributed R&D notwithstanding) and we are being offered some pretty amazing cameragear with excellent lenses in both apsc and mf.

With the downward trend in photography atm, how long will this remain possible?
Title: Re: The incomprehensible and absurd overpricing of the Fuji GFX-100
Post by: BernardLanguillier on June 27, 2019, 07:19:16 am
One thing is 100% sure, my absurdly expensive GFX100 has shipped.

Providing the G20 in Osaka doesn't mean the end of Japan, I should get it by Sunday. :)

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: The incomprehensible and absurd overpricing of the Fuji GFX-100
Post by: 32BT on June 27, 2019, 07:25:39 am
One thing is 100% sure, my absurdly expensive GFX100 has shipped.

Providing the G20 in Osaka doesn't mean the end of Japan, I should get it by Sunday. :)

Cheers,
Bernard

I can hear a Z7 silently crying in a corner, even from here... (you still have my address, don't you? In case that Z7 needs some consolation.)
Title: Re: The incomprehensible and absurd overpricing of the Fuji GFX-100
Post by: BernardLanguillier on June 27, 2019, 07:32:45 am
I can hear a Z7 silently crying in a corner, even from here... (you still have my address, don't you? In case that Z7 needs some consolation.)

Thanks for your kind offer, but I believe they will get along just fine. :D

The lenses are making friends already.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: The incomprehensible and absurd overpricing of the Fuji GFX-100
Post by: eronald on June 27, 2019, 08:44:41 am
One thing is 100% sure, my absurdly expensive GFX100 has shipped.

Providing the G20 in Osaka doesn't mean the end of Japan, I should get it by Sunday. :)

Cheers,
Bernard

Japan, the country where packages get delivered on Sundays. Ah you are really far from your native Europe, Bernard.


PS
If I had had a hand in teh design I would have covered the whole back of the GFX100 with one HUGE touchscreen, so that even older users could clearly operate the camera without glasses, and review shots clearly. Reviewing shots is one of the great pleasures and learning tools of digital photography.

Edmund
Title: Re: The incomprehensible and absurd overpricing of the Fuji GFX-100
Post by: Alan Klein on June 27, 2019, 08:49:27 am
I suspect Fuji intends to sell these to the upscale buyers and professionals who won;t be too bothered by the cost. People willing to spend $4500 on a Nikon 35mm pro camera will find Fuji's pricing reasonable for a MF camera. 
Title: Re: The incomprehensible and absurd overpricing of the Fuji GFX-100
Post by: BernardLanguillier on June 27, 2019, 08:53:26 am
Japan, the country where packages get delivered on Sundays. Ah you are really far from your native Europe, Bernard.

Really? :)

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: The incomprehensible and absurd overpricing of the Fuji GFX-100
Post by: eronald on June 27, 2019, 08:54:14 am
I suspect Fuji intends to sell these to the upscale buyers and professionals who won;t be too bothered by the cost. People willing to spend $4500 on a Nikon 35mm pro camera will find Fuji's pricing reasonable for a MF camera.

In Japan I suspect most of these will be sold at a steep discount with printer and media bundling to the FujiFilm linked formal photography studios.

Edmund
Title: Re: The incomprehensible and absurd overpricing of the Fuji GFX-100
Post by: BernardLanguillier on June 27, 2019, 09:48:58 am
In Japan I suspect most of these will be sold at a steep discount with printer and media bundling to the FujiFilm linked formal photography studios.

That could be the case... or not. I believe that in Japan, like many other countries, amateurs will make up the vast majority of buyers.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: The incomprehensible and absurd overpricing of the Fuji GFX-100
Post by: Martin Kristiansen on June 27, 2019, 10:22:53 am
That could be the case... or not. I believe that in Japan, like many other countries, amateurs will make up the vast majority of buyers.

Cheers,
Bernard

Iím sure that true. Nothing wrong with that. Amateurs, not fond of the word as sometimes it can seem insulting and I donít mean that at all, have the luxury of deciding what they want to say and how they want to say it and then can choose their tools accordingly. A pleasant position to be in.
Title: Re: The incomprehensible and absurd overpricing of the Fuji GFX-100
Post by: BernardLanguillier on June 27, 2019, 10:55:24 am
Iím sure that true. Nothing wrong with that. Amateurs, not fond of the word as sometimes it can seem insulting and I donít mean that at all, have the luxury of deciding what they want to say and how they want to say it and then can choose their tools accordingly. A pleasant position to be in.

Absolutely. I am an amateur myself.

The only meaning I associate with that word is that of not generating a majority of income from photography.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: The incomprehensible and absurd overpricing of the Fuji GFX-100
Post by: Rob C on June 27, 2019, 12:35:24 pm
Absolutely. I am an amateur myself.

The only meaning I associate with that word is that of not generating a majority of income from photography.

Cheers,
Bernard

That's an interesting philosophy.

It has already destroyed the professional stock photography market. Thank you, shamateurs united, for that.

Rob
Title: Re: The incomprehensible and absurd overpricing of the Fuji GFX-100
Post by: SrMi on June 27, 2019, 02:25:16 pm
Absolutely. I am an amateur myself.

The only meaning I associate with that word is that of not generating a majority of income from photography.

Cheers,
Bernard

noun: amateur;
1. a person who engages in a pursuit, on an unpaid rather than a professional basis.
synonyms:   nonprofessional, nonspecialist, layman, layperson
2. a person who is incompetent or inept at a particular activity.
synonyms:   bungler, blunderer, incompetent, bumbler;

The term amateur is ambiguous. Maybe we should use terms nonprofessional or blunderer, depending on what we want to convey :-).


Title: Re: The incomprehensible and absurd overpricing of the Fuji GFX-100
Post by: BernardLanguillier on June 27, 2019, 04:57:05 pm
That's an interesting philosophy.

It has already destroyed the professional stock photography market. Thank you, shamateurs united, for that.

Well, as far as I am concerned I donít make any income from photography and have always refused to give away images for free except to personal friends.

I would have said blunderer speaking of myself but I didnít want to risk offending other amateurs. :D

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: The incomprehensible and absurd overpricing of the Fuji GFX-100
Post by: eronald on June 27, 2019, 04:59:40 pm
Well, as far as I am concerned I donít make any income from photography and have always refused to give away images for free except to personal friends.

Cheers,
Bernard

I think Rob needs a beer :)
The cellphone destroyed the photo market, as people assume that they can take pictures so they have no value.

Edmund
Title: Re: The incomprehensible and absurd overpricing of the Fuji GFX-100
Post by: faberryman on June 27, 2019, 05:30:19 pm
The cellphone destroyed the photo market, as people assume that they can take pictures so they have no value.
I was at the doctor's office today. There were two or three dozen magazines laying around. The amount of photos greatly exceeded the amount of text. I'd wager most were not taken with an iPhone, and that none of them were taken by photographers for free.
Title: Re: The incomprehensible and absurd overpricing of the Fuji GFX-100
Post by: mondeo on June 27, 2019, 06:08:13 pm
It is my belief - founded on my 40 year old education in IC design, that chips are priced by surface. (The root cause of this is that defects follow a Poisson statistic).

Edmund

Well then your 40 yr education will remind you that for each chip process step improvement / reduction the cost of masks to make the chip tends to double in price. Compared to a 50Mp chip you need photosites that are half the size and a process geometry that is smaller, otherwise all the amplifiers will take up proportionally more space. Also the likely yield to get a good enough sensor reduces (you need half as many dead pixels or dead amplifiers).

This all assumes that the number of layers the chip has hasn't also increased. More layers in processing also equals more cost even if the area hasnt changed.

All of this is standard chip manufacturing economics and not Fuji (or Sony) pulling a fast one.
Title: Re: The incomprehensible and absurd overpricing of the Fuji GFX-100
Post by: eronald on June 27, 2019, 06:24:36 pm
I was at the doctor's office today. There were two or three dozen magazines laying around. The amount of photos greatly exceeded the amount of text. I'd wager most were not taken with an iPhone, and that none of them were taken by photographers for free.

https://www.tvtechnology.com/opinions/how-euronews-nbc-approaches-iphone-journalism

e.
Title: Re: The incomprehensible and absurd overpricing of the Fuji GFX-100
Post by: eronald on June 27, 2019, 07:08:26 pm
Well then your 40 yr education will remind you that for each chip process step improvement / reduction the cost of masks to make the chip tends to double in price. Compared to a 50Mp chip you need photosites that are half the size and a process geometry that is smaller, otherwise all the amplifiers will take up proportionally more space. Also the likely yield to get a good enough sensor reduces (you need half as many dead pixels or dead amplifiers).

This all assumes that the number of layers the chip has hasn't also increased. More layers in processing also equals more cost even if the area hasnt changed.

All of this is standard chip manufacturing economics and not Fuji (or Sony) pulling a fast one.
Mondeo,

Go ahead and educate a dinosaur :)

The number of interest here is the relative cost factor of a 44x33 chip compared to a 36x24, when the same process and cell architecture is employed. I think this is determined by the process yield /die size curve.

I don't think one-time setup costs like maskset are really relevant because I would expect them to be well under $200K.

My expectation is that Sony ran the numbers for something like 10K chips - with 20 chips per 300mm wafer - if that's what they're using these days, and a 1500sqmm die size if one factors in 2mm on each side of the chip for scribing and pads.

However, I suspect that Sony is rather good at optimising its sensor production mix using multichip wafers, so the production of the larger chip might occur seamlessly at the same time as whatever else they are making with that sensor-tuned process.

I think that's enough made up numbers for one day. As you are well informed, I am sure you can provide accurate yield figures for the process Sony is using for this product, and we should be able to figure out the incremental chip cost better than by my guesses.

Edmund
Title: Re: The incomprehensible and absurd overpricing of the Fuji GFX-100
Post by: Dan Wells on June 27, 2019, 07:59:29 pm
Going back a bit...

In unit sales, APS-C vastly exceeds everything larger put together - even Fuji's upper-end APS-C is a relatively small piece of the market. APS-C (including Micro 43) is somewhere between 3/4 and 4/5 of ILC sales (something like  7.5-8 million units/year).  The vast majority of these are inexpensive "Best Buy cameras",  for which no additional lens is ever purchased (they're used with the 1-2 lenses they came with).

Of these, somewhere between 500,000 and 750,000 are Fujis with a much higher average value per unit than most other APS-C cameras - and many of those Fuji shooters buy lenses.  A few more are other higher-end APS-C cameras, although a serial number reporting site estimates total Nikon D500 sales over 3+ years as only 110,000+, compared to millions per model of the D3xxx and D5xxx series. I'd be surprised if the Canon 7D mkII or the Sony A6500 were selling in a completely different order of magnitude from the 30,000-40,000 D500s per year. Most $1000+ APS-C is Fuji...

Full frame is probably somewhere around 2 million cameras per year (this figure plus or minus 20% keeps showing up different places), at much higher unit prices (probably not 4x the price per unit, but maybe not far off, especially if you include lenses). Many or most FF shooters own several lenses for their system, and some own lenses worth much more than the camera body.

I'd be shocked if medium format is even 100,000 cameras/year - it may now be close to that, with the Fujis selling much more than the body/back systems ever did. Average selling price is very high.

BUT

Non-Fuji APS-C almost certainly has an average price/camera kit (body plus lenses owned) well under $800 ($600?)
Fuji APS-C is probably $1500-$2000 (body and a couple of lenses)?

Full-frame is at least $2000, probably significantly higher - depends on lens sales - how many of those cameras share a bag with an expensive lens or two?

Is medium format $10,000 or so per kit? Most of the market is under or around that, but there's Phase and the H system getting towards $50,000/system.

Total revenue from full-frame is probably approaching total revenue from APS-C  (especially if you count Fuji X-T, X-H and X-Pro as competing with full-frame, not with $400 cameras). Total profit from full-frame may even be higher than APS-C, because the margins are higher.

Medium format is much smaller, but not insignificant - 1/20 the sales of full-frame, but at 5x the price? 1/4 the revenue???

Title: Re: The incomprehensible and absurd overpricing of the Fuji GFX-100
Post by: hogloff on June 27, 2019, 08:29:00 pm
I was at the doctor's office today. There were two or three dozen magazines laying around. The amount of photos greatly exceeded the amount of text. I'd wager most were not taken with an iPhone, and that none of them were taken by photographers for free.

Magazines...another thing going the way of the dodo bird.
Title: Re: The incomprehensible and absurd overpricing of the Fuji GFX-100
Post by: hogloff on June 27, 2019, 08:32:57 pm
Going back a bit...

In unit sales, APS-C vastly exceeds everything larger put together - even Fuji's upper-end APS-C is a relatively small piece of the market. APS-C (including Micro 43) is somewhere between 3/4 and 4/5 of ILC sales (something like  7.5-8 million units/year).  The vast majority of these are inexpensive "Best Buy cameras",  for which no additional lens is ever purchased (they're used with the 1-2 lenses they came with).

Of these, somewhere between 500,000 and 750,000 are Fujis with a much higher average value per unit than most other APS-C cameras - and many of those Fuji shooters buy lenses.  A few more are other higher-end APS-C cameras, although a serial number reporting site estimates total Nikon D500 sales over 3+ years as only 110,000+, compared to millions per model of the D3xxx and D5xxx series. I'd be surprised if the Canon 7D mkII or the Sony A6500 were selling in a completely different order of magnitude from the 30,000-40,000 D500s per year. Most $1000+ APS-C is Fuji...

Full frame is probably somewhere around 2 million cameras per year (this figure plus or minus 20% keeps showing up different places), at much higher unit prices (probably not 4x the price per unit, but maybe not far off, especially if you include lenses). Many or most FF shooters own several lenses for their system, and some own lenses worth much more than the camera body.

I'd be shocked if medium format is even 100,000 cameras/year - it may now be close to that, with the Fujis selling much more than the body/back systems ever did. Average selling price is very high.

BUT

Non-Fuji APS-C almost certainly has an average price/camera kit (body plus lenses owned) well under $800 ($600?)
Fuji APS-C is probably $1500-$2000 (body and a couple of lenses)?

Full-frame is at least $2000, probably significantly higher - depends on lens sales - how many of those cameras share a bag with an expensive lens or two?

Is medium format $10,000 or so per kit? Most of the market is under or around that, but there's Phase and the H system getting towards $50,000/system.

Total revenue from full-frame is probably approaching total revenue from APS-C  (especially if you count Fuji X-T, X-H and X-Pro as competing with full-frame, not with $400 cameras). Total profit from full-frame may even be higher than APS-C, because the margins are higher.

Medium format is much smaller, but not insignificant - 1/20 the sales of full-frame, but at 5x the price? 1/4 the revenue???

Where are you getting these figures from?
Title: Re: The incomprehensible and absurd overpricing of the Fuji GFX-100
Post by: eronald on June 27, 2019, 10:37:45 pm
Where are you getting these figures from?

maybe
http://www.cipa.jp/stats/report_e.html
Title: Re: The incomprehensible and absurd overpricing of the Fuji GFX-100
Post by: mcbroomf on June 28, 2019, 04:21:59 am
Mondeo,

I don't think one-time setup costs like maskset are really relevant because I would expect them to be well under $200K.

Edmund

I'd be interested where that number came from.  I was working in a 90nm factory until I retired and a full set of reticles cost in the range of $1m.  21 layers I think for a 6 level metal process.  I'm not sure how many layers of metal sensors have, a few less so remove 2 reticles/metal layer.  Now double that for a 2 stitch, etc.  The same costs have to be born for the processor if it's rev'd to add more oomph, single set of reticles though.  I would think these costs would be passed on by the semiconductor company in the initial wave of processors, quickly dropping in price as Intel does for leading CPUs.
Title: Re: The incomprehensible and absurd overpricing of the Fuji GFX-100
Post by: eronald on June 28, 2019, 06:27:56 am
I'd be interested where that number came from.  I was working in a 90nm factory until I retired and a full set of reticles cost in the range of $1m.  21 layers I think for a 6 level metal process.  I'm not sure how many layers of metal sensors have, a few less so remove 2 reticles/metal layer.  Now double that for a 2 stitch, etc.  The same costs have to be born for the processor if it's rev'd to add more oomph, single set of reticles though.  I would think these costs would be passed on by the semiconductor company in the initial wave of processors, quickly dropping in price as Intel does for leading CPUs.

Mike -

 I'm probably closer to wrong, and you're probably closer to right. As you've noticed I'm not very careful, precise or well informed.
 Like you say, one would expect a sensor design to need fewer metal layers than complex logic.
 In any case one would end up with a figure of $1M by your calculation (provided the design doesn't need to be iterated), and also wafer costs etc which are not trivial because there are fairly few dies per wafer, and the yield isn't necessarily high, so you only get a few working chips per wafer.

 But still, after all of this, if you agree that they can do a fairly fast design cycle from cell libraries, then I'd guess the whole story basically has  (company internal) economics that are closer to an ASIC design than to a processor.  Sony basically has an internal sensor design ASIC shop in-house speccing and then quickly creating chips that are suitable for cellphones, automotive, security, machine vision and ... medium format cameras. That's the business model of their Sony Semiconductor Solutions BU, although they do take the risk that a design won't sell.

 Do you agree my number of $1000 per chip to the customer still makes sense?  I would expect them to have an initial order of something like 3000 from Fuji, and they have been making this chip for some time for other applications, eg Phase One aerial.

Edmund
Title: Re: The incomprehensible and absurd overpricing of the Fuji GFX-100
Post by: chez on June 28, 2019, 07:55:02 am
maybe
http://www.cipa.jp/stats/report_e.html

I don't see the numbers broken out by APS-C, full frame and medium format. Just Interchangable lens cameras and built in lens cameras.
Title: Re: The incomprehensible and absurd overpricing of the Fuji GFX-100
Post by: mcbroomf on June 28, 2019, 08:13:59 am
Mike -

 I'm probably closer to wrong, and you're probably closer to right. As you've noticed I'm not very careful, precise or well informed.
 Like you say, one would expect a sensor design to need fewer metal layers than complex logic.
 In any case one would end up with a figure of $1M by your calculation (provided the design doesn't need to be iterated), and also wafer costs etc which are not trivial because there are fairly few dies per wafer, and the yield isn't necessarily high, so you only get a few working chips per wafer.

 But still, after all of this, if you agree that they can do a fairly fast design cycle from cell libraries, then I'd guess the whole story basically has  (company internal) economics that are closer to an ASIC design than to a processor.  Sony basically has an internal sensor design ASIC shop in-house speccing and then quickly creating chips that are suitable for cellphones, automotive, security, machine vision and ... medium format cameras. That's the business model of their Sony Semiconductor Solutions BU, although they do take the risk that a design won't sell.

 Do you agree my number of $1000 per chip to the customer still makes sense?  I would expect them to have an initial order of something like 3000 from Fuji, and they have been making this chip for some time for other applications, eg Phase One aerial.

Edmund

I definitely agree that the cell libraries can be re-used, and probably shrunk as necessary, although the smaller features would have to be made in silicon and tested before new libraries are released for the design teams to use.  It would not surprise me if Sony have leapfrogging design teams like Intel uses.

I really don't recall much about silicon costs now, and I worked in a 200mm factory not 300mm. I think the masks are more likely to be closer to $1.5M than one, and with modest sales, say 3000 then this would add $500 to the die cost assuming Sony wish to recover the cost in the 1st round of sales.  However even if you were not taking this into account and were using $1k (even though you originally said less than $1k) a cost of $1500/die is still not unreasonable I'd think to absorb into the cost of camera.  Personally I don't think the $10k price is either incomprehensible nor overpriced.  I remember paying $8k for all 3 models of the Canon 1Ds bodies I owned, and with inflation I'd bet they would be over $10k now. 

If you want bleeding edge then be prepared to pay bleeding edge prices, if not then wait.  One thing we all know is that as tech drives forward prices drop, either by discounts or the next gen being better and getting more for less.  Personally I hope they bring out a cheaper, smaller non-IBIS body in a couple of years.
Title: Re: The incomprehensible and absurd overpricing of the Fuji GFX-100
Post by: eronald on June 28, 2019, 08:37:29 am
Mike,

I think this 100MP design was done for remote sensing/ mapping applications, where Iíd guess cameras are used in clusters of maybe 9 or so. Such a camera has been sold by Phase aerial/defense for some time now, and so I think the first round of sales is already done.

As for the price of the camera, I donít think it is exagerated per se - especially when compared to Phase One and Hassy pricing in the past. I just think it is a *bad* price because Fuji have one genuine window IMHO chance to establish the system as a studio reference, and therefore should go for market share.

The Canon 1Ds was a special case, it was unique, and was used to test the waters. My feeling is Canon never wanted to sell that many, and indeed they soon came out with the low priced 5D series which was very strongly marketed.

Edmund



I definitely agree that the cell libraries can be re-used, and probably shrunk as necessary, although the smaller features would have to be made in silicon and tested before new libraries are released for the design teams to use.  It would not surprise me if Sony have leapfrogging design teams like Intel uses.

I really don't recall much about silicon costs now, and I worked in a 200mm factory not 300mm. I think the masks are more likely to be closer to $1.5M than one, and with modest sales, say 3000 then this would add $500 to the die cost assuming Sony wish to recover the cost in the 1st round of sales.  However even if you were not taking this into account and were using $1k (even though you originally said less than $1k) a cost of $1500/die is still not unreasonable I'd think to absorb into the cost of camera.  Personally I don't think the $10k price is either incomprehensible nor overpriced.  I remember paying $8k for all 3 models of the Canon 1Ds bodies I owned, and with inflation I'd bet they would be over $10k now. 

If you want bleeding edge then be prepared to pay bleeding edge prices, if not then wait.  One thing we all know is that as tech drives forward prices drop, either by discounts or the next gen being better and getting more for less.  Personally I hope they bring out a cheaper, smaller non-IBIS body in a couple of years.
Title: Re: The incomprehensible and absurd overpricing of the Fuji GFX-100
Post by: BernardLanguillier on June 28, 2019, 09:50:42 am
Japan, the country where packages get delivered on Sundays. Ah you are really far from your native Europe, Bernard.

It looks like I wonít have to tap into their weekend delivery potential in the end.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: The incomprehensible and absurd overpricing of the Fuji GFX-100
Post by: mcbroomf on June 28, 2019, 12:48:42 pm
Mike,

I think this 100MP design was done for remote sensing/ mapping applications, where Iíd guess cameras are used in clusters of maybe 9 or so. Such a camera has been sold by Phase aerial/defense for some time now, and so I think the first round of sales is already done.

As for the price of the camera, I donít think it is exagerated per se - especially when compared to Phase One and Hassy pricing in the past. I just think it is a *bad* price because Fuji have one genuine window IMHO chance to establish the system as a studio reference, and therefore should go for market share.

The Canon 1Ds was a special case, it was unique, and was used to test the waters. My feeling is Canon never wanted to sell that many, and indeed they soon came out with the low priced 5D series which was very strongly marketed.

Edmund

I've never worked in marketing, although been in many meetings with them, not for leading edge tech mind you.  The Fuji is cheap for MF compared to P1/Hassy, I think we agree, so I imagine Fuji chose their pricepoint carefully, knowing that they are unlikely to get mainstream 35mm FF users to switch given the lenses (physically large but smaller range).  A bad pricing structure may be a matter of opinion, or something we'll just have to wait for proof, either way.  One thing I do know is that if they chose a low price they can't increase it, while if their MSRP is too high and limits sales, they can drop it.  Lenses are already $500 off across the board.
Title: Re: The incomprehensible and absurd overpricing of the Fuji GFX-100
Post by: eronald on June 28, 2019, 01:09:31 pm
It looks like I wonít have to tap into their weekend delivery potential in the end.

Cheers,
Bernard

You mean all you need now for the 0.1 Gigapixel  cat photo is the cat?

Edmund
Title: Re: The incomprehensible and absurd overpricing of the Fuji GFX-100
Post by: BJL on June 28, 2019, 01:34:17 pm
The contention was that sales of the new mf camera will ensure development of the platform
Thatís probably a better way to look at it: will cameras like the GFX100 sell well enough to produce a ROI that makes Fujifilm willing and able to keep developing the system. It will clearly be a small part of Fujifilmís total business (IL cameras are a small part of Sonyís and Canonís total business, BTW) but adequate ROI, or even the prestige and not losing much on the 44x33 system, should be enough.
Title: Re: The incomprehensible and absurd overpricing of the Fuji GFX-100
Post by: Dan Wells on June 28, 2019, 02:27:40 pm
Looking forward to your reports, Bernard!

If Fuji can grow the MF market so their share of it is 100,000 units/year (across three models, probably no more than 20% of that is GFX100s), that's a great business for them - If they make $1000/camera, it's a nice $100 million business. Even 50,000 cameras/year is worthwhile for them (easily).




Title: Re: The incomprehensible and absurd overpricing of the Fuji GFX-100
Post by: chez on June 28, 2019, 04:06:31 pm
Looking forward to your reports, Bernard!

If Fuji can grow the MF market so their share of it is 100,000 units/year (across three models, probably no more than 20% of that is GFX100s), that's a great business for them - If they make $1000/camera, it's a nice $100 million business. Even 50,000 cameras/year is worthwhile for them (easily).

Are you just pulling numbers from the air or do you have some reference we can view?
Title: Re: The incomprehensible and absurd overpricing of the Fuji GFX-100
Post by: BernardLanguillier on June 28, 2019, 06:16:31 pm
You mean all you need now for the 0.1 Gigapixel  cat photo is the cat?

As well as some charged batteries I guess... and a few other details. ;)

I guess Iíll have to read the manual this time around... :D

But I am already under the charm of the 110mm f2.0 and the colors.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: The incomprehensible and absurd overpricing of the Fuji GFX-100
Post by: Dan Wells on June 29, 2019, 01:18:00 am
I've seen in some Fuji interview that they were aiming at a few thousand units/month (3000?) for the 50S alone, before they released the other two (which would be reasonable for a camera in that price range).  They must have either gotten it or come close enough to satisfy themselves in order to have released two more models and a slew of lenses. There is a 2019 Fuji interview in which they claim to have "doubled the size of the medium format market" - which includes Pentax and the H system as well as the extreme high end.

The only manufacturer I've actually seen production figures per model for is Nikon (and those are primarily from serial number tracking, NOT Nikon releasing the sales).

Nikon's production capacity on the D3x (the closest thing they've ever done to medium format - with its very high resolution sensor (for the day) and 14-bit capture) was 2,000/month (Thom Hogan, I believe), and serial number tracking estimates that at least 25,000 of those were sold in about 33 months from wide availability to the launch of the D800. The D3x was more expensive than the Fujis except the GFX 100, and perhaps more exotic.

The D800-D810-D850 have always run in the 10,000/month range (from the release of the D800 to today) Nikon has stated 10,000/month as the volume they have available on that line (some DPReview or Imaging Resource interview), and serial number tracking suggests they pretty much sell it, except perhaps when the camera is stale .

I suspect Fuji sells significantly more over three models than the D3x ever did - 1000 to 2000 per month wouldn't double the medium format market, and wouldn't be worth making three significantly different bodies and a bunch of lenses... They'd be ecstatic to do D8xx volume, even split over three models, and I strongly suspect they don't do it. If their "few thousand a month" hope for the GFX 50S came true, they'd have to do that for each model without cannibalization.

Between that, I don't know... I suspect their target is in the range of 50,000-100,000/year (4000-8000/month) across the three models. How close are they? The 100 alone - a shot in the dark, but D3x volume? Same market, wedged in between the top quality you can get from anything cheaper and Phase and Hasselblad offering a slight step up for several times the money...

Title: Re: The incomprehensible and absurd overpricing of the Fuji GFX-100
Post by: BernardLanguillier on June 29, 2019, 05:37:23 am
Very favorable first impression of the GFX100!

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: The incomprehensible and absurd overpricing of the Fuji GFX-100
Post by: eronald on June 29, 2019, 06:12:27 am
Very favorable first impression of the GFX100!

Cheers,
Bernard

Where is that cat when you need it?

Edmund
Title: Re: The incomprehensible and absurd overpricing of the Fuji GFX-100
Post by: Bart_van_der_Wolf on June 29, 2019, 06:37:29 am
But I am already under the charm of the 110mm f2.0 and the colors.

What's your impression of the Bokeh? I've read earlier comments (possibly earlier Fujinon designs for MF), that they were a bit on the harsh side (due to relative over-correction?), not smooth (compared to other brands). Are there even alternatives for this mount (it seems like Fujifilm is aiming for lens-generated profit, rather than from the body)?

Cheers,
Bart
Title: Re: The incomprehensible and absurd overpricing of the Fuji GFX-100
Post by: BernardLanguillier on June 29, 2019, 07:04:30 am
Bokeh can be complicated to assess as a whole, but on the images I have shot so far with the 110 and 250mm it seems absolutely outstanding. One of the best I have seen.
 
But this is a first impression.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: The incomprehensible and absurd overpricing of the Fuji GFX-100
Post by: Christopher on June 29, 2019, 07:59:32 am
The camera is great. So far Iím impressed a lot. IBIS and AF are great. However, mine probably has to go back to Fuji as it resets itself every time when switching it off.  ::)
Title: Re: The incomprehensible and absurd overpricing of the Fuji GFX-100
Post by: vjbelle on June 29, 2019, 08:56:17 am
Mine arrives on Monday.  Has anyone tried the power setting to allow for the EVF to have higher resolution? 

Victor
Title: Re: The incomprehensible and absurd overpricing of the Fuji GFX-100
Post by: vjbelle on June 29, 2019, 09:00:31 am
The camera is great. So far Iím impressed a lot. IBIS and AF are great. However, mine probably has to go back to Fuji as it resets itself every time when switching it off.  ::)

Bummer...... maybe Fuji has a quick fix.  Try calling them on Monday.

Victor
Title: Re: The incomprehensible and absurd overpricing of the Fuji GFX-100
Post by: Christopher on June 29, 2019, 09:53:47 am
I will sadly it looks like a problem going around.  Certainly not common, but I know of four people having the same problem. Really shouldnít happen on a 10k camera.
Title: Re: The incomprehensible and absurd overpricing of the Fuji GFX-100
Post by: Paul2660 on June 29, 2019, 10:04:55 am
Happened on one their APS-C cameras XT-2.

They fixed it with firmware within a week. Odds are this will be handled with a firmware update

Paul C
Title: Re: The incomprehensible and absurd overpricing of the Fuji GFX-100
Post by: eronald on June 29, 2019, 10:07:40 am
I will sadly it looks like a problem going around.  Certainly not common, but I know of four people having the same problem. Really shouldnít happen on a 10k camera.

There seems to be a problem with the settings not being stable until some small battery inside the camera gets charged.

Edmund
Title: Re: The incomprehensible and absurd overpricing of the Fuji GFX-100
Post by: eronald on June 29, 2019, 10:10:47 am
What's your impression of the Bokeh? I've read earlier comments (possibly earlier Fujinon designs for MF), that they were a bit on the harsh side (due to relative over-correction?), not smooth (compared to other brands). Are there even alternatives for this mount (it seems like Fujifilm is aiming for lens-generated profit, rather than from the body)?

Cheers,
Bart


There are some Mitakon lenses that are cheap, MF, and some of the best bokeh I have ever seen. I think there's a 65 and 85.

https://zyoptics.net/product/mitakon-speedmaster-65mm-f-1-4/

I don't know whether Contax and Mamiya MF lenses can AF on the Fuji. But I guess all those and the old Hassy lenses ... and Leica (!) can be used if just bokeh is the issue.

Edmund
Title: Re: The incomprehensible and absurd overpricing of the Fuji GFX-100
Post by: Dan Wells on June 29, 2019, 03:04:19 pm
The other (common) problem with Fuji cameras that can cause the symptoms mentioned above (I've had it on several of their APS-C cameras) is that their clock batteries seem especially slow to charge.

Stick a fully charged battery (well, two in this case) in the camera. Leave it on a shelf for a couple of days (I haven't had to charge one in a while, and forget if it should be off or on but asleep). That will charge the little battery that runs the clock and keeps the settings intact. After this, set the settings, and they should stay set unless there is a further problem.

This can happen with any camera, but Fujis seem especially slow to charge the clock battery. My Z7 did the same thing when I was playing with on its first day, but leaving it alone for an hour or two charged the clock battery. My X-T2 took over 24 hours if I recall correctly. Once I got the clock battery charged, I've never had a Fuji (nor anything else)give me another problem unless I left it without a main battery for a month or so.
Title: Re: The incomprehensible and absurd overpricing of the Fuji GFX-100
Post by: BernardLanguillier on June 29, 2019, 04:50:55 pm
I havenít experienced this disappearing settings issue.

I charged 2 new batteries with the charger provided by Fuji, loaded them in the camera, used the camera 4-5 hours later. No problem seen.

I am impressed really. Did some low light focusing/IBIS tests last night. 110mm f2.0 handheld, ISO12,800, f2.0, 1/10s, one weak led light in a tent. The camera focused quickly and reliably and images reviewed on screen donít reveal any blur.

This is a 100mp small MF camera that is as flexible as the best in class mirrorless.
- the EVF is even better than that of the Z7,
- the overall smoothness of operation is DSLR like
- exposure is spot on
- eye AF needs to be investigated some more. Overall it seems to work very well on cooperating subjects and decently with candids, the eye box in viewfinder doesít always appear to be able to follow but images are more often focused than not
- it isnít light but the ergo is pretty good,
- the batteries drain pretty fast but I realized at the end of the day that I had an option with IBIS on all the time that must have made things worse. Still I used up only 1.3 batteries after a day of shooting. I love the % accurate display of used battery capacity
- the vertical grip isnít the best but is still totally usable I find

Now itís a complex tool and coming from many years of Nikon/Hasselblad, there are some aspects of the UI that will benefit from a read of the manual. 😀

The menus are super rich and I am not able to fully guess the exact meaning/impact of perhaps 20% of the options.

In short things would be perfect if Edmund changed the title of thread to ďGFX100, a 15 fold increase of value compared to an XF IQ350Ē. :D

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: The incomprehensible and absurd overpricing of the Fuji GFX-100
Post by: BobShaw on June 29, 2019, 07:41:46 pm
There are some people here making comments on a camera they have actually held. Is that allowed?
Title: Re: The incomprehensible and absurd overpricing of the Fuji GFX-100
Post by: faberryman on June 29, 2019, 07:46:04 pm
There are some people here making comments on a camera they have actually held. Is that allowed?
Sure beats arguing about the price.
Title: Re: The incomprehensible and absurd overpricing of the Fuji GFX-100
Post by: hubell on June 29, 2019, 10:34:47 pm
I assume the GFX 100 will perform quite well, but let's wait to read some detailed reviews from independent reviewers like Diglloyd. All that's out there now are paeans from paid shills.
Title: Re: The incomprehensible and absurd overpricing of the Fuji GFX-100
Post by: BernardLanguillier on June 29, 2019, 10:53:23 pm
There are some people here making comments on a camera they have actually held. Is that allowed?

Shocking, I know.... 😀

But their positive feedbacks about a camera not carrying an Hasselblad logo are highly suspicious...

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: The incomprehensible and absurd overpricing of the Fuji GFX-100
Post by: eronald on June 30, 2019, 01:54:37 am

In short things would be perfect if Edmund changed the title of thread to ďGFX100, a 15 fold increase of value compared to an XF IQ350Ē. :D

Cheers,
Bernard

Your wish is my command!

Edmund
Title: Re: GFX100, a 15 fold increase of value compared to an XF IQ350 (per Bernard)
Post by: Christopher on June 30, 2019, 04:12:29 am
A few impressions from my days with the GFX100.

- Ergonomically I actually prefer the gip of the GFX50 and my XF. The 100 isnít bad at all, but for me the other two cameras are better to hold. It could be a little deeper. After reading so much negative stuff about the portrait grip, I was positively surprised. It feels quite nice.

- Weight: I think itís ok. It feels like a normal large pro camera. Itís not the feeling I had with some GF lenses. (Look big, feel super light) itís feels more how it looks.

- AF and stuff: shooting was a lot of fun and IBIS works quite nice. Iím really loved the AF no comparison to the slow CDAF Auto focus on the 50s. That surprise wonít come if your used a modern DSLR or mirrorless. It will be a huuuuge upgrade when coming from a medium format camera like the XF or H series. For me itís a 50s on drugs. :)

- file quality is great, what I have seen so far, but honestly the current job would have been able to be shot on any camera. I will have to wait till I can shoot some more stuff to see.

At the end Iím mostly pissed at my faulty camera. This can always happen but honestly shouldnít. I saved all settings with X Aquire and so itís easy to restore them before going out, but once Iím back home the camera has to go in. I donít think the problem will fix itself. I have been using the camera for a full day now and it was sitting with two full batteries for over 48hours without any change...
Title: Re: The incomprehensible and absurd overpricing of the Fuji GFX-100
Post by: BernardLanguillier on June 30, 2019, 04:41:20 am
Your wish is my command!

Lol :D

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: The incomprehensible and absurd overpricing of the Fuji GFX-100
Post by: eronald on June 30, 2019, 05:21:12 am
Lol :D

Cheers,
Bernard

You owe me one GFX100 cat pic   ;)

Edmund
Title: Re: The incomprehensible and absurd overpricing of the Fuji GFX-100
Post by: Rob C on June 30, 2019, 08:17:50 am
There are some people here making comments on a camera they have actually held. Is that allowed?


It should be banned immediately: those folks are fanboys who put their money down. That can't possibly be clinically objective; from the very start it reveals a predisposition to believing!

Rob
Title: Re: The incomprehensible and absurd overpricing of the Fuji GFX-100
Post by: eronald on June 30, 2019, 09:28:46 am

It should be banned immediately: those folks are fanboys who put their money down. That can't possibly be clinically objective; from the very start it reveals a predisposition to believing!

Rob

True, but then a noted test site (dpr) published a whole series of totally fuzzy foobarred testshots from the GFX100 . 

As a somewhat contentious  :) US political commentator and amateur politician would say on his twitter account: "Fakenews everywhere, so sad!".

It seem that in the case of the GFX100 we have one of those still rare but very unfortunate cases of a product delivering as advertised, a trend which someone should speedily stop before the ad industry tanks.

Edmund
Title: Re: The incomprehensible and absurd overpricing of the Fuji GFX-100
Post by: narikin on June 30, 2019, 11:26:45 am
The camera is great. So far Iím impressed a lot. IBIS and AF are great. However, mine probably has to go back to Fuji as it resets itself every time when switching it off.  ::)

Have you tried charging it via the USB-C port on the side of body? A good long charge to fill up the Li-ion button cell inside that stores settings.

Mine is behaving ok.  Not that a firmware update wouldn't help.
Remember to update your lens firmware too - needed to take advantage of the PD-AF.


Title: Re: GFX100, a 15 fold increase of value compared to an XF IQ350 (per Bernard)
Post by: Christopher on June 30, 2019, 11:38:27 am
Lenses are updated. Did that way before with my 50s.

Itís currently hanging on a USB charger and two full batteries. However, I doubt it will change anything.
Title: Re: GFX100, a 15 fold increase of value compared to an XF IQ350 (per Bernard)
Post by: narikin on June 30, 2019, 01:03:28 pm
Lenses are updated. Did that way before with my 50s.

Itís currently hanging on a USB charger and two full batteries. However, I doubt it will change anything.

Great a *fast* USB-C charger is best, of course, if you have one. Otherwise... overnight.
Worked for me.
Title: Re: GFX100, a 15 fold increase of value compared to an XF IQ350 (per Bernard)
Post by: hubell on June 30, 2019, 03:22:42 pm
A few impressions from my days with the GFX100.

- Ergonomically I actually prefer the gip of the GFX50 and my XF. The 100 isnít bad at all, but for me the other two cameras are better to hold. It could be a little deeper. After reading so much negative stuff about the portrait grip, I was positively surprised. It feels quite nice.

- Weight: I think itís ok. It feels like a normal large pro camera. Itís not the feeling I had with some GF lenses. (Look big, feel super light) itís feels more how it looks.

- AF and stuff: shooting was a lot of fun and IBIS works quite nice. Iím really loved the AF no comparison to the slow CDAF Auto focus on the 50s. That surprise wonít come if your used a modern DSLR or mirrorless. It will be a huuuuge upgrade when coming from a medium format camera like the XF or H series. For me itís a 50s on drugs. :)

- file quality is great, what I have seen so far, but honestly the current job would have been able to be shot on any camera. I will have to wait till I can shoot some more stuff to see.

At the end Iím mostly pissed at my faulty camera. This can always happen but honestly shouldnít. I saved all settings with X Aquire and so itís easy to restore them before going out, but once Iím back home the camera has to go in. I donít think the problem will fix itself. I have been using the camera for a full day now and it was sitting with two full batteries for over 48hours without any change...

It may be a limited firmware issue with the camera if you are using German as the language for camera settings. Try switching to English, save some settings, and see if it makes a difference when you turn it off and back on. Just a thought.
Title: Re: GFX100, a 15 fold increase of value compared to an XF IQ350 (per Bernard)
Post by: Christopher on June 30, 2019, 04:03:49 pm
Tried that. Or letís say I always use English. After the last reset I choose some Asian languages and had a short moment of: ďhow will I ever be able to find the language settings again if it works.Ē However, it did not. Same reset, there are currently 7 people I know of with the same problem. This should never happened, but well I can live with it for a week and then it goes back to Fuji.

I wanted to try reinstalling the firmware, but I doubt the camera would even let me install the same firmware over the current one.
Title: Re: GFX100, a 15 fold increase of value compared to an XF IQ350 (per Bernard)
Post by: hubell on June 30, 2019, 04:30:04 pm
Tried that. Or letís say I always use English. After the last reset I choose some Asian languages and had a short moment of: ďhow will I ever be able to find the language settings again if it works.Ē However, it did not. Same reset, there are currently 7 people I know of with the same problem. This should never happened, but well I can live with it for a week and then it goes back to Fuji.

I wanted to try reinstalling the firmware, but I doubt the camera would even let me install the same firmware over the current one.

Very disappointing, as I am sure you were looking forward to working with it. Amazing how often cameras are being released these days with all kinds of issues or incomplete firmware right out of the gate, no matter the price level. You certainly have had more than your share of frustration this year.
Title: Re: GFX100, a 15 fold increase of value compared to an XF IQ350 (per Bernard)
Post by: SrMi on June 30, 2019, 04:59:43 pm
Really?

Is this the right thread to report and discuss first experience with GFX 100.

:)
Title: Re: GFX100, a 15 fold increase of value compared to an XF IQ350 (per Bernard)
Post by: eronald on June 30, 2019, 05:08:05 pm
Really?

Is this the right thread to report and discuss first experience with GFX 100.

:)

Yes, absolutely. I think we would all like to see some photos, especially cat photos, as is traditional. Bernard seems to have been able to find a GFX100, but no cat, no pictures  :)

Edmund
Title: Re: GFX100, a 15 fold increase of value compared to an XF IQ350 (per Bernard)
Post by: 32BT on June 30, 2019, 05:21:26 pm
I expect B to present us a picture of a sailboat in action real soon! I mean, what better place to take a brand spanking new 15k jewel of envy to than over the middle of a deep trench in the ocean somewhere. You gotta be livin' on the edge, no?
Title: Re: GFX100, a 15 fold increase of value compared to an XF IQ350 (per Bernard)
Post by: Steve Hendrix on June 30, 2019, 05:27:25 pm
Tried that. Or letís say I always use English. After the last reset I choose some Asian languages and had a short moment of: ďhow will I ever be able to find the language settings again if it works.Ē However, it did not. Same reset, there are currently 7 people I know of with the same problem. This should never happened, but well I can live with it for a week and then it goes back to Fuji.

I wanted to try reinstalling the firmware, but I doubt the camera would even let me install the same firmware over the current one.


Christopher, I had the same issue with the GFX 100 units we received for our clients as we were updating firmware. I suspect, as some have noted, that the internal battery needs a longer charge to hold those settings. I hope this is the case, rather than something that a new firmware needs to address.

Note to Mr. Cubell: Other than that, we so far have not come across any issues, nor did this prevent us from using the camera. It simply means you have to set the date when you turn it on. I don't think it is fair to lump this in with other "cameras are being released these days with all kinds of issues".


Steve Hendrix/CI
Title: Re: GFX100, a 15 fold increase of value compared to an XF IQ350 (per Bernard)
Post by: hubell on June 30, 2019, 05:53:14 pm

Christopher, I had the same issue with the GFX 100 units we received for our clients as we were updating firmware. I suspect, as some have noted, that the internal battery needs a longer charge to hold those settings. I hope this is the case, rather than something that a new firmware needs to address.

Note to Mr. Cubell: Other than that, we so far have not come across any issues, nor did this prevent us from using the camera. It simply means you have to set the date when you turn it on. I don't think it is fair to lump this in with other "cameras are being released these days with all kinds of issues".


Steve Hendrix/CI

My understanding is that the faulty cameras were dropping all of the custom settings that you entered into the firmware each time you turned it off. No small matter for a camera with a 300 page manual filled with different settings that you customize. Moreover, there are other glitches being reported by first users. https://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/4405899#forum-post-62836667. I am NOT pointing fingers just at Fuji. As you know, I have an X1D, which had more than its fair share of teething issues. I am sure Fuji will get it all sorted out in time, but I think most of us expect more when we drop $10k on a camera. I assume you would agree, Steve.
Title: Re: GFX100, a 15 fold increase of value compared to an XF IQ350 (per Bernard)
Post by: BernardLanguillier on June 30, 2019, 06:39:19 pm
I am NOT pointing fingers just at Fuji.

Right... you still had the choice to post this or not... and you choose to post it.

I assume in a generous move aimed at informing people that they may be about to buy a 10,000 US$ camera with major issue? :D

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: GFX100, a 15 fold increase of value compared to an XF IQ350 (per Bernard)
Post by: Steve Hendrix on June 30, 2019, 06:40:53 pm
My understanding is that the faulty cameras were dropping all of the custom settings that you entered into the firmware each time you turned it off. No small matter for a camera with a 300 page manual filled with different settings that you customize. Moreover, there are other glitches being reported by first users. https://www.dpreview.com/forums/thread/4405899#forum-post-62836667. I am NOT pointing fingers just at Fuji. As you know, I have an X1D, which had more than its fair share of teething issues. I am sure Fuji will get it all sorted out in time, but I think most of us expect more when we drop $10k on a camera. I assume you would agree, Steve.


We've not had these reports yet and were only aware of the date/time setting issue, stands to reason this would apply to custom settings as well. Still, I am not aware that anyone has confirmed this is not an issue of the internal battery needing a more thorough charge. If that is the case, and cameras need to be exchanged - which I assume we would eventually need to take part in, that's a different story. Once I see that this is at the level of "all sorts of issues", then I'll post the reconsideration of my comment.


Steve Hendrix/CI
Title: Re: GFX100, a 15 fold increase of value compared to an XF IQ350 (per Bernard)
Post by: eronald on June 30, 2019, 06:41:10 pm
I expect B to present us a picture of a sailboat in action real soon! I mean, what better place to take a brand spanking new 15k jewel of envy to than over the middle of a deep trench in the ocean somewhere. You gotta be livin' on the edge, no?

Maybe his memory reset?

Edmund
Title: Re: GFX100, a 15 fold increase of value compared to an XF IQ350 (per Bernard)
Post by: BernardLanguillier on June 30, 2019, 06:49:10 pm
I expect B to present us a picture of a sailboat in action real soon! I mean, what better place to take a brand spanking new 15k jewel of envy to than over the middle of a deep trench in the ocean somewhere. You gotta be livin' on the edge, no?

Not very likely. Horses for courses, the Nikon Z7 is a much better fit for those situations, would it only be because it has much more useful - and still excellent - zoom lenses starting with the amazing 24-70 f2.8 S. ;)

And I tend to apply the one year rule... don't take a new camera to a potentially risky outing until it has delivered value for at least a year. That's one of the reason why I took the D850 instead of the Z7 during a one week sailing trip last November... but every rule has exceptions obviously.  ;D

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: GFX100, a 15 fold increase of value compared to an XF IQ350 (per Bernard)
Post by: chez on June 30, 2019, 07:14:13 pm
Not very likely. Horses for courses, the Nikon Z7 is a much better fit for those situations, would it only be because it has much more useful - and still excellent - zoom lenses starting with the amazing 24-70 f2.8 S. ;)

And I tend to apply the one year rule... don't take a new camera to a potentially risky outing until it has delivered value for at least a year. That's one of the reason why I took the D850 instead of the Z7 during a one week sailing trip last November... but every rule has exceptions obviously.  ;D

Cheers,
Bernard

You mean depreciate in value don't you?  ;D
Title: Re: GFX100, a 15 fold increase of value compared to an XF IQ350 (per Bernard)
Post by: BernardLanguillier on June 30, 2019, 08:52:22 pm
You mean depreciate in value don't you?  ;D

I look at cameras as items that deliver value through usage.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: GFX100, a 15 fold increase of value compared to an XF IQ350 (per Bernard)
Post by: eronald on July 01, 2019, 06:24:33 pm
I look at cameras as items that deliver value through usage.

Cheers,bout the camera to
Bernard

Bernard, could we see an image with urban texture, or a person in it, or even a cat?

Edmund
Title: Re: GFX100, a 15 fold increase of value compared to an XF IQ350 (per Bernard)
Post by: ErikKaffehr on July 02, 2019, 04:33:53 am
Hi Ronald,

I posted a question on DPReviews Science and Technology forums on costs for a new sensor. The best answer I got was:

Erik, if the pixel has already been proven via other products or test devices, then this is a pretty easy task. A design team of perhaps 10-12 could bang the design out in less than 6 months.  Then there is fab and characterization which could be 9 months.  Depending on what is found, there may need to be a revision.  Entering manufacturing might take another 6 months (production samples v. engineering samples).  Between personnel costs and mask costs, could easily be a few million $ to get to engineering samples, and a few more to get to production. So you are several million into NRE as an investment. Someone somewhere does this math more carefully, and looks at the market for price total production volume, and considers other strategic factors (e.g. does it enable a new Sony camera product) and someone else then decides if it is worth starting or not.  There are always way more product opportunities than there are design and fab capacities, so these decisions are not done in isolation.  For example, Sony might make more money making more stacked camera-phone sensors instead of using fab capacity for this new product.  It is a complicated business, and if only we had a perfect crystal ball for making decisions like this.

BTW,  speaking of Sony design capacities, looks like they need more capacity: article


That was from Eric Fossum, the inventor of the CMOS sensor.

I would also guess that NRE costs for the 44x33 sensors are paid off and that production may be moved to an older 'fab' while the 100 MP sensor is probably made in a fab supportingnew design features like BSI and copper.

In general, new products are introduced at higher prices in lower volumes. After a while prices go down and availability gets better.

Best regards
Erik

It is my belief - founded on my 40 year old education in IC design, that chips are priced by surface. (The root cause of this is that defects follow a Poisson statistic).

Hence the cost of a 50Mp or a 100MP 44x33 chip do not differ vey significantly.

Which makes me think that the cost to Fuji of a 44x33 chip is well under $1K, and makes the pricing of the GFX100 completely incomprehensible, a more reasonable expectation of pricing would be somewhere north of $5K where we find the other "pro" Nikon and Canon bodies ... and the Hasselblad X1DII.

I think Fuji may have been indulging in a bit of puffery with the overlarge and shiny booster body and noisy launch PR, and we can expect some quick steps downwards as soon as the first wave of impulse buying subsides.

The positioning of the GFX100 in the Fuji line, as a straight jump up from APS-C is very smart. However it becomes less clever when the price differential between APS-C flagship and the crop MF flagship is 4x rather than 2x.

I intend no disrespect to Fuji, nor to the GFX100 which seems an excellent photographic device, but the discussion of pricing has always been a prerogative of the consumer.

Edmund
Title: Re: GFX100, a 15 fold increase of value compared to an XF IQ350 (per Bernard)
Post by: BernardLanguillier on July 02, 2019, 06:38:27 am
Bernard, could we see an image with urban texture, or a person in it, or even a cat?

My daughter has a bad cat allergy and I prefer smooth cities...

This being said I'll probably be in Singapore soon, I may bring the compact camera with me.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: GFX100, a 15 fold increase of value compared to an XF IQ350 (per Bernard)
Post by: Dan Wells on July 03, 2019, 06:19:25 pm
If we're looking at "several million into NRE as an investment" on a sensor that has (so far) appeared in one expensive camera, there's quite a bit of that investment stuck to each sensor. It's a guess, but I suspect Sony is attaching at least $1000 extra per sensor to cover that investment, the opportunity cost of making the sensor in a newer fab (the 50 MP is probably made on a line that has fewer other possibilities) and extra profit on a new product. It could easily be twice that...

Another guess: Fuji is charging the end user about twice what the sensor costs them for the sensor difference. Much of this is margin, but it also covers things like a unique filter layer.

This puts the total sensor (and filter stack) cost difference at retail somewhere between $2000 and $4000 from a GFX 50 to a GFX 100. This doesn't count the cost of the (limited-production) IBIS unit or anything else aside from "what's your best guess about what the sensor's responsible for".

This is based on a production of ~1000 cameras month (or possibly less). Those are D3x-ish numbers, and I can't think of a better comparable (for which the numbers are available - Nikon numbers are easier to get than anything else). The scraps of information that have come out on medium format suggest that the much less expensive GFX 50S and R probably sell somewhat better than the D3x ever did (especially in combination), but that nothing else has probably reached D3x numbers (the ONLY information I have on the Pentax is Fuji's statement that they "doubled the size of the medium format market" even before the GFX 50R). If the Pentax had been selling 1000+ per month plus various Phase and Hasselblad models, Fuji would have to have been selling quite a few cameras to make that true...
Title: Re: GFX100, a 15 fold increase of value compared to an XF IQ350 (per Bernard)
Post by: eronald on July 03, 2019, 06:58:25 pm
Re. Sony, I think that what Sony Semiconductor does these days is basically churn out sensors by customising their technologies, and they do this quickly and easily, at a price which ensures them increasing marketshare. The 100MP sensor used in the GFX100 has already been out for some time in remote sensing/mapping  applications, and I would expect that the design costs are amortised, and Sony won't get too greedy because they will still hope to resell the same sensor to that chinese drone company which keeps a luxury camera as a side-brand, and also see a compact GF100R as another future release.  Fuji's investment in oversized IBIS and doubly oversized shutter is a different story.

Edmund

If we're looking at "several million into NRE as an investment" on a sensor that has (so far) appeared in one expensive camera, there's quite a bit of that investment stuck to each sensor. It's a guess, but I suspect Sony is attaching at least $1000 extra per sensor to cover that investment, the opportunity cost of making the sensor in a newer fab (the 50 MP is probably made on a line that has fewer other possibilities) and extra profit on a new product. It could easily be twice that...

Another guess: Fuji is charging the end user about twice what the sensor costs them for the sensor difference. Much of this is margin, but it also covers things like a unique filter layer.

This puts the total sensor (and filter stack) cost difference at retail somewhere between $2000 and $4000 from a GFX 50 to a GFX 100. This doesn't count the cost of the (limited-production) IBIS unit or anything else aside from "what's your best guess about what the sensor's responsible for".

This is based on a production of ~1000 cameras month (or possibly less). Those are D3x-ish numbers, and I can't think of a better comparable (for which the numbers are available - Nikon numbers are easier to get than anything else). The scraps of information that have come out on medium format suggest that the much less expensive GFX 50S and R probably sell somewhat better than the D3x ever did (especially in combination), but that nothing else has probably reached D3x numbers (the ONLY information I have on the Pentax is Fuji's statement that they "doubled the size of the medium format market" even before the GFX 50R). If the Pentax had been selling 1000+ per month plus various Phase and Hasselblad models, Fuji would have to have been selling quite a few cameras to make that true...
Title: Re: GFX100, a 15 fold increase of value compared to an XF IQ350 (per Bernard)
Post by: Dan Wells on July 04, 2019, 12:57:52 am
I wonder what the numbers of sensors used in remote sensing/mapping applications are? I have no idea - is what we call photography a minor sideshow in the use of high-resolution sensors, or is the aerial market a small percentage of what gets used in cameras, or is it roughly equal?
Title: Re: GFX100, a 15 fold increase of value compared to an XF IQ350 (per Bernard)
Post by: ErikKaffehr on July 04, 2019, 03:51:19 am
Hi Dan,

A few years ago, it was often mentioned that the MFD market may be 10000 cameras a year or less.

A few months ago, Lens Rentals published it's "Most Popular Photography and Videography Products of 2018", that places Fujifilm on 4.67% 2017 and 4.25% 2018. So, it seems that the GF system may not have a large impact on Fujifilm rentals.

Would Fujifilm sell 20000 GFX systems a year and and would say 5000 of that be GFX100, we may assume, just as an example:

NRE costs, say 20M$US (Eric Fossum indicated like 10M$US on a sensor based on an existing pixel design, but this is a new design)
Say that pay off is calculated for three years. So, that would mean 2e7 / 15000 -> 1300 $US, just covering NRE costs. To that comes production costs.

Pricing is actually about what customers are willing to pay, more than about costs. Any manufacturer selling below fully covered manufacturing costs will go kerplunk over time of course.

Best regards
Erik

If we're looking at "several million into NRE as an investment" on a sensor that has (so far) appeared in one expensive camera, there's quite a bit of that investment stuck to each sensor. It's a guess, but I suspect Sony is attaching at least $1000 extra per sensor to cover that investment, the opportunity cost of making the sensor in a newer fab (the 50 MP is probably made on a line that has fewer other possibilities) and extra profit on a new product. It could easily be twice that...

Another guess: Fuji is charging the end user about twice what the sensor costs them for the sensor difference. Much of this is margin, but it also covers things like a unique filter layer.

This puts the total sensor (and filter stack) cost difference at retail somewhere between $2000 and $4000 from a GFX 50 to a GFX 100. This doesn't count the cost of the (limited-production) IBIS unit or anything else aside from "what's your best guess about what the sensor's responsible for".

This is based on a production of ~1000 cameras month (or possibly less). Those are D3x-ish numbers, and I can't think of a better comparable (for which the numbers are available - Nikon numbers are easier to get than anything else). The scraps of information that have come out on medium format suggest that the much less expensive GFX 50S and R probably sell somewhat better than the D3x ever did (especially in combination), but that nothing else has probably reached D3x numbers (the ONLY information I have on the Pentax is Fuji's statement that they "doubled the size of the medium format market" even before the GFX 50R). If the Pentax had been selling 1000+ per month plus various Phase and Hasselblad models, Fuji would have to have been selling quite a few cameras to make that true...
Title: Re: GFX100, a 15 fold increase of value compared to an XF IQ350 (per Bernard)
Post by: Dan Wells on July 04, 2019, 04:47:24 pm
Hi Erik-
     Sounds about right, although Fuji probably needs to sell somewhat more than 20,000 cameras/year to support all that lens development (and three bodies). How much more? I don't know... 1/4 GFX 100 is kind of what I'm thinking, too...

     Does this count as an existing or a new pixel design? It is a new design, but shared among three sensors - the 33x44mm, the presumably very low-volume (unless there's some use that isn't photographic in our sense) IQ4 150 sensor and (importantly, because it could be a lot of volume over time), the X-T3 sensor, which will probably migrate into Sonys, Nikons and Pentaxes as well. There's a datasheet for a fourth sensor with this pixel, which we haven't seen in a camera yet - 24x36mm, ~65 MP. How much is medium format paying for the development of the pixel?

Dan
Title: Re: GFX100, a 15 fold increase of value compared to an XF IQ350 (per Bernard)
Post by: eronald on July 04, 2019, 05:26:51 pm
Hi Erik-
     Sounds about right, although Fuji probably needs to sell somewhat more than 20,000 cameras/year to support all that lens development (and three bodies). How much more? I don't know... 1/4 GFX 100 is kind of what I'm thinking, too...

     Does this count as an existing or a new pixel design? It is a new design, but shared among three sensors - the 33x44mm, the presumably very low-volume (unless there's some use that isn't photographic in our sense) IQ4 150 sensor and (importantly, because it could be a lot of volume over time), the X-T3 sensor, which will probably migrate into Sonys, Nikons and Pentaxes as well. There's a datasheet for a fourth sensor with this pixel, which we haven't seen in a camera yet - 24x36mm, ~65 MP. How much is medium format paying for the development of the pixel?

Dan

Not only is it not a new pixel design, but it's part of a whole family of chips with the same interfaces. In my view, it's a trivial scaling down of the 150MP chip. If I were feeling unpleasant, I would say that Sony were probably able to finalize the design for the 100MP in one day after doing the 150, by changing just a few parameters in a CAD macro file.

Edmund
Title: Re: GFX100, a 15 fold increase of value compared to an XF IQ350 (per Bernard)
Post by: Christopher on July 05, 2019, 04:48:02 am
And still no 36mm FF camera using that design.
Title: Re: GFX100, a 15 fold increase of value compared to an XF IQ350 (per Bernard)
Post by: mcbroomf on July 05, 2019, 05:18:05 am
Not only is it not a new pixel design, but it's part of a whole family of chips with the same interfaces. In my view, it's a trivial scaling down of the 150MP chip. If I were feeling unpleasant, I would say that Sony were probably able to finalize the design for the 100MP in one day after doing the 150, by changing just a few parameters in a CAD macro file.

Edmund

Start thinking about making a donation then Edmund .. you're not even close  ;D  each new chip needs to be designed from the ground up.  Of course as previously discussed libraries can be used, and those familiar with them will get the work done fast, but I'd expect it to take weeks at least.
Title: Re: GFX100, a 15 fold increase of value compared to an XF IQ350 (per Bernard)
Post by: eronald on July 05, 2019, 06:37:25 am
Start thinking about making a donation then Edmund .. you're not even close  ;D  each new chip needs to be designed from the ground up.  Of course as previously discussed libraries can be used, and those familiar with them will get the work done fast, but I'd expect it to take weeks at least.

I disagree with the "from the ground up" assertion if you already have a large array and want to scale down, and you're in a company set up to cycle through custom sensor designs quickly, but weeks seems correct. I see no reason why such a design would have a high setup cost and indeed a photographer here once recounted that Dalsa made a custom "digital polaroid" 8x10 sensor for him for about $100K.

Edmund
Title: Re: GFX100, a 15 fold increase of value compared to an XF IQ350 (per Bernard)
Post by: mcbroomf on July 05, 2019, 08:26:54 am
I'm just telling you design just doesn't happen like that.  A new sensor with a new cell would take a lot longer than one using a previously used and characterized cell, but much of that time would be saved in avoiding repeated steppings after debug, and likely a shorter QA test requirement.

Anyway, I think this is done to death ...  :)
Title: Re: GFX100, a 15 fold increase of value compared to an XF IQ350 (per Bernard)
Post by: eronald on July 05, 2019, 05:53:04 pm
I'm sorry - there may have been a misunderstanding here - by "scale down" I meant reduce the number of pixels in x or y or dimensions or both. Obviously, if you scale down the pixel for a new process, you need new characterisation, but in my opinion just leaving out some pixels from an existing and fabricated array - eg. the 150MP Sony chip won't create major new issues. If you think it does, go ahead and educate me.

Edmund

I'm just telling you design just doesn't happen like that.  A new sensor with a new cell would take a lot longer than one using a previously used and characterized cell, but much of that time would be saved in avoiding repeated steppings after debug, and likely a shorter QA test requirement.

Anyway, I think this is done to death ...  :)
Title: Re: GFX100, a 15 fold increase of value compared to an XF IQ350 (per Bernard)
Post by: mcbroomf on July 05, 2019, 05:57:42 pm
No problem, but I understood what you meant and stand by my response .. yes a bit faster/easier but still much more time than you think.
Title: Re: GFX100, a 15 fold increase of value compared to an XF IQ350 (per Bernard)
Post by: eronald on July 05, 2019, 07:30:02 pm
No problem, but I understood what you meant and stand by my response .. yes a bit faster/easier but still much more time than you think.

I will try and get hold of someone who sells semi-custom sensors and ask them.
This seems the best way to get a handle on the realities of this business.

Edmund
Title: Re: GFX100, a 15 fold increase of value compared to an XF IQ350 (per Bernard)
Post by: ErikKaffehr on July 06, 2019, 02:09:39 am
Hi Dan,

As far as I understand, sensor development has a three year cycle. So, design of the present design has probably started 3-4 years ago.

I would guess that most development is actually done small size imagers, like cell phone cameras, but the technology migrates to larger sensors and larger pixels.

Sensors are also a compromise. At least 24x36 sensor need to handle both stills and video. My understanding is that the around 60 MP is one that is optimized for video.

You are of course right that reusing the pixel design of the 102 MP 33x44 sensor would yield 61 MP on 24x36 mm.

Regarding the camera market, it may around like 8 million interchangeable lens cameras a year. Lens rentals reports around 4.2% Fujifilm market share for their customers. So, using those figures as an input I would guess that total Fujifilm camera sales are more like 350000. I guess 20000 out of 350000 may be a realistic figure.

Best regards
Erik


Hi Erik-
     Sounds about right, although Fuji probably needs to sell somewhat more than 20,000 cameras/year to support all that lens development (and three bodies). How much more? I don't know... 1/4 GFX 100 is kind of what I'm thinking, too...

     Does this count as an existing or a new pixel design? It is a new design, but shared among three sensors - the 33x44mm, the presumably very low-volume (unless there's some use that isn't photographic in our sense) IQ4 150 sensor and (importantly, because it could be a lot of volume over time), the X-T3 sensor, which will probably migrate into Sonys, Nikons and Pentaxes as well. There's a datasheet for a fourth sensor with this pixel, which we haven't seen in a camera yet - 24x36mm, ~65 MP. How much is medium format paying for the development of the pixel?

Dan
Title: Re: GFX100, a 15 fold increase of value compared to an XF IQ350 (per Bernard)
Post by: BJL on July 07, 2019, 11:39:16 am
Not only is it not a new pixel design, but it's part of a whole family of chips with the same interfaces. In my view, it's a trivial scaling down of the 150MP chip. If I were feeling unpleasant, I would say that Sony were probably able to finalize the design for the 100MP in one day after doing the 150, by changing just a few parameters in a CAD macro file.

Edmund
I agree that the two new sensors, 100MP 44x33 and 150MP 54x40 might share a large proportion of R&D costs. But it is not as if Sony is going to recover them all with the mark-up on the (far lower volume?) 150MP sensor and then sell the smaller sensor at unit production cost plus a small margin. I would guess the opposite; that revenues on the 44x33 will have to cover the great majority of those costs.

Still, my bottom line is that, as usual, I trust Fujifilmís business knowledge and decision-making over internet forum handwaving, guesswork, hearsay, 40-year old experience plus cynicism, but I also know that I will never persuade some self-styled teams of online experts on this!
Title: Re: GFX100, a 15 fold increase of value compared to an XF IQ350 (per Bernard)
Post by: Dan Wells on July 07, 2019, 11:00:59 pm
Isn't most of Sony's volume on that pixel design not going to be medium format at all? We haven't seen the 26 MP X-T3 sensor anywhere besides the X-T3 so far, but I suspect Sony will be using it themselves, probably starting with the new APS-C body that's rumored for announcement in the next few weeks. Fuji will almost certainly use it in everything for the next few years (they try to reuse APS-C sensors repeatedly to avoid making new X-Trans arrays). I'm sure Sony is hoping for large orders from Nikon and at least small orders from Pentax.

We haven't seen the ~61 MP sensor at all yet, but I'd strongly suspect it of showing up in the A7rIV first, then possibly another Sony (a fixed lens RX1, perhaps? Maybe a very high-end body as well?). Nikon will probably use it in D850 and Z7 replacements. If it's easy enough to replace the older 36 MP sensor with, Pentax may very well throw it in a K1 successor.

Each of these bodies individually (with the possible exception of a fixed-lens Sony or some of the Pentaxes) will probably outsell the combined sales of everything that uses the 100 and 150 MP sensors...

Dan
Title: Re: GFX100, a 15 fold increase of value compared to an XF IQ350 (per Bernard)
Post by: BernardLanguillier on July 08, 2019, 01:18:45 am
We haven't seen the ~61 MP sensor at all yet, ... Nikon will probably use it in D850 and Z7 replacements.

Out of topic in this thread obviously, but I think that Nikon will first release it in a full spec pro body. It wouldn't surprise me if they did to us a Z9x/Z9. And the Z9x would get the high res sensor while the Z9 would be a mirrorless D6.

If this is the case, the contribution of Nikon to the volume selling of the 61mp sensor may be limited at first. And this may be the deal btwn Sony and Nikon btw. Who knows? ;)

Future will tell.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: GFX100, a 15 fold increase of value compared to an XF IQ350 (per Bernard)
Post by: eronald on July 08, 2019, 09:58:58 am
Yeah, the MF is just presales for the coming 35mm market release - but it's also an absolute necessity to have a cutting edge remote sensing/mapping/military recon product out there. And in fact we see the 100MP has already been in use "officially" for something like a year, and we can assume that customers who were willing to pay had it some time before. My belief is that airborne sensors are used in clusters and spares are purchased; so the unit sales in airborne applications are an order of magnitude larger than one would assume.


Edmund

Isn't most of Sony's volume on that pixel design not going to be medium format at all? We haven't seen the 26 MP X-T3 sensor anywhere besides the X-T3 so far, but I suspect Sony will be using it themselves, probably starting with the new APS-C body that's rumored for announcement in the next few weeks. Fuji will almost certainly use it in everything for the next few years (they try to reuse APS-C sensors repeatedly to avoid making new X-Trans arrays). I'm sure Sony is hoping for large orders from Nikon and at least small orders from Pentax.

We haven't seen the ~61 MP sensor at all yet, but I'd strongly suspect it of showing up in the A7rIV first, then possibly another Sony (a fixed lens RX1, perhaps? Maybe a very high-end body as well?). Nikon will probably use it in D850 and Z7 replacements. If it's easy enough to replace the older 36 MP sensor with, Pentax may very well throw it in a K1 successor.

Each of these bodies individually (with the possible exception of a fixed-lens Sony or some of the Pentaxes) will probably outsell the combined sales of everything that uses the 100 and 150 MP sensors...

Dan
Title: Re: GFX100, a 15 fold increase of value compared to an XF IQ350 (per Bernard)
Post by: kers on July 08, 2019, 11:22:03 am
Where are photos of the GFX100MP?
A lot of talk, but images should speak.
Title: Re: GFX100, a 15 fold increase of value compared to an XF IQ350 (per Bernard)
Post by: 32BT on July 08, 2019, 11:29:58 am
Where are photos of from the GFX100MP?
A lot of talk, but images should speak.

Otherwise they think you want to know what the camera looks like...

Title: Re: GFX100, a 15 fold increase of value compared to an XF IQ350 (per Bernard)
Post by: faberryman on July 08, 2019, 11:37:13 am
Where are photos of the GFX100MP?
A lot of talk, but images should speak.
How are images from a 100MP camera posted as 800x600 72dpi jpgs on the web going to help?
Title: Re: GFX100, a 15 fold increase of value compared to an XF IQ350 (per Bernard)
Post by: BJL on July 08, 2019, 12:49:49 pm
Dan makes a better point that the pixel design costs will in part be spread over likely future sales of smaller sensors that also use it. However:
- there are other design issues for a larger sensor with longer signal paths, more stitching needed to fab, etc. (Edmund made a big-to-small comparison which could mostly avoid those extra costs)
- Sony is not going to set prices to defray all those costs on sensors in a competitive (vs Canon at least) and more cost-sensitive market, and then sell at ďunit cost plus a small marginĒ in the medium format market where Sony has a monopoly and customers are a bit less price-sensitive.

It comes back to choosing the most profitable price, not any ďcharity for the privilegedĒ idea that prices should be only modestly higher than unit costs.
Title: Re: GFX100, a 15 fold increase of value compared to an XF IQ350 (per Bernard)
Post by: 32BT on July 08, 2019, 02:04:23 pm
Dpreview finished the reshoot. Much better resolving comparison, although the colorprofile in raw is very clearly less than optimal.
Title: Re: GFX100, a 15 fold increase of value compared to an XF IQ350 (per Bernard)
Post by: SrMi on July 08, 2019, 02:50:25 pm
Dpreview finished the reshoot. Much better resolving comparison, although the colorprofile in raw is very clearly less than optimal.

JPGs are still sharper than RAWs. Either Fuji sharpens JPGs more than others, or the RAWs require more sharpening. I do not see such a difference with, e.g., D850.

BTW, when loading  GFX100 raw files into Lightroom they are by default much sharper than what DPR displays in their studio scene.
Title: Re: GFX100, a 15 fold increase of value compared to an XF IQ350 (per Bernard)
Post by: 32BT on July 08, 2019, 03:18:42 pm
JPGs are still sharper than RAWs. Either Fuji sharpens JPGs more than others, or the RAWs require more sharpening. I do not see such a difference with, e.g., D850.

BTW, when loading  GFX100 raw files into Lightroom they are by default much sharper than what DPR displays in their studio scene.

What are you comparing exactly?

Note that the 850 and Z7 both show blooming on high contrast edges. Not sure if something was overexposed there, but shows a potential source for loss of microdetail, the kind of effect that would make one choose MF.

Title: Re: GFX100, a 15 fold increase of value compared to an XF IQ350 (per Bernard)
Post by: SrMi on July 08, 2019, 03:46:39 pm
What are you comparing exactly?

Note that the 850 and Z7 both show blooming on high contrast edges. Not sure if something was overexposed there, but shows a potential source for loss of microdetail, the kind of effect that would make one choose MF.

I am comparing results as seen in DPReview's studio scene (black on white text, banknote, ...).
Title: Re: GFX100, a 15 fold increase of value compared to an XF IQ350 (per Bernard)
Post by: 32BT on July 08, 2019, 04:09:20 pm
Attached is what I see on my monitor. Not sure if it is just on my monitor.
In image 1 you can see magenta text for both bottom cameras.
In image 2 the camera engines have ameliorated the problem, but the lack of microdetail is very apparent. This has little to do with sharpness settings.

The comparative view is, if I remember correctly, 30mpx max. So all images are downsampled, but that would be favourable to all.


Title: Re: GFX100, a 15 fold increase of value compared to an XF IQ350 (per Bernard)
Post by: SrMi on July 08, 2019, 04:22:44 pm
Attached is what I see on my monitor. Not sure if it is just on my monitor.
In image 1 you can see magenta text for both bottom cameras.
In image 2 the camera engines have ameliorated the problem, but the lack of microdetail is very apparent. This has little to do with sharpness settings.

The comparative view is, if I remember correctly, 30mpx max. So all images are downsampled, but that would be favourable to all.

I was not clear, it seems. I did not want to compare Nikon's cameras with GFX100. Instead, I was noticing the much larger difference in sharpness between GFX100's RAW and JPG than I see between Nikon's RAWs and JPGs.
Title: Re: GFX100, a 15 fold increase of value compared to an XF IQ350 (per Bernard)
Post by: 32BT on July 08, 2019, 04:29:30 pm
I was not clear, it seems. I did not want to compare Nikon's cameras with GFX100. Instead, I was noticing the much larger difference in sharpness between GFX100's RAW and JPG than I see between Nikon's RAWs and JPGs.

Ah, yes, like so.

I recall for the E3 I dialed down the default jpg sharpening for sooc files. Fuji seemed a bit heavy handed on the sharpening. I presume the results wouldn't be much different for the jpg engine in the GFX series.
Title: Re: GFX100, a 15 fold increase of value compared to an XF IQ350 (per Bernard)
Post by: Dan Wells on July 08, 2019, 06:40:27 pm
Of course, it's impossible to know how many sensors the aerial mapping/intelligence folks are buying... Some of that work is commercial, for everything from real estate development to agriculture and forestry to ecological science (even those numbers are hard to get, but there's no reason they should be impossible. A largeproportion, however, is classified spy secrets.

I once talked to an engineer from Cray, and I asked him where and how they tend to sell their machines. He said that a lot of them go to everything from universities to the National Weather Service to biotech companies (and at least one baseball team, which I found out years later). When someone like that buys a Cray supercomputer (for millions of dollars) it comes with some Cray engineers, who move into the customer site for weeks or even months, integrating the machine into the work environment and making sure everything is running well. On the other hand, they get orders from Langley, Virginia and Fort Meade, Maryland where they just drop the computer off on the loading dock and some folks in trenchcoats come out and move it into the building...
Title: Re: GFX100, a 15 fold increase of value compared to an XF IQ350 (per Bernard)
Post by: eronald on July 08, 2019, 08:01:45 pm
Of course, it's impossible to know how many sensors the aerial mapping/intelligence folks are buying... Some of that work is commercial, for everything from real estate development to agriculture and forestry to ecological science (even those numbers are hard to get, but there's no reason they should be impossible. A largeproportion, however, is classified spy secrets.

I once talked to an engineer from Cray, and I asked him where and how they tend to sell their machines. He said that a lot of them go to everything from universities to the National Weather Service to biotech companies (and at least one baseball team, which I found out years later). When someone like that buys a Cray supercomputer (for millions of dollars) it comes with some Cray engineers, who move into the customer site for weeks or even months, integrating the machine into the work environment and making sure everything is running well. On the other hand, they get orders from Langley, Virginia and Fort Meade, Maryland where they just drop the computer off on the loading dock and some folks in trenchcoats come out and move it into the building...

I once did an ďon the recordĒ interview of one of the creators of the commercial-use DES cipher. When asked about whether it was breakable, he averred that it would need acres of computers to break it.

Maybe the guys you were talking about had big buildings and large budgets, then. Of course they have smaller budgets these days, donít they?  :)



Edmund


Title: Re: GFX100, a 15 fold increase of value compared to an XF IQ350 (per Bernard)
Post by: BernardLanguillier on July 11, 2019, 08:25:45 am
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48256668896_dcd9c359cf_h.jpg)
GFX100 - 300 mp handheld pano stitch ISO3200

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: GFX100, a 15 fold increase of value compared to an XF IQ350 (per Bernard)
Post by: eronald on July 11, 2019, 05:30:38 pm
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48256668896_dcd9c359cf_h.jpg)
GFX100 - 300 mp handheld pano stitch ISO3200

Cheers,
Bernard

Beautiful pic, Bernard - where and what is this building?

Edmund
Title: Re: GFX100, a 15 fold increase of value compared to an XF IQ350 (per Bernard)
Post by: BernardLanguillier on July 11, 2019, 05:46:06 pm
Hi Edmund,

This is the Marina Bay Sands hotel in Singapore.

There is a 150m long open air infinity pool on the 57th floor at the top... ;) These buildings are todayís cathedrals.

I picked this image because it illustrates the reason why I think 10,000 US$ (which buys you a GFX100) is apparently considered pocket change money for many people in Asia. ;)

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: GFX100, a 15 fold increase of value compared to an XF IQ350 (per Bernard)
Post by: Joe Towner on July 11, 2019, 07:53:48 pm
I knew the hotel just from looking at it :) Netflix did a show on hotels, and of course the Marina Bay Sands was their first episode - https://www.netflix.com/title/80212125
Title: Re: GFX100, a 15 fold increase of value compared to an XF IQ350 (per Bernard)
Post by: Joe Towner on July 11, 2019, 08:04:09 pm
I did a write up as to why the GFX100 really is huge.  Having spent a week with the IQ4 150 since then, I can clearly state they both have their own spaces.
https://medium.bikehugger.com/why-the-fujifilm-gfx-100-matters-b37337a34f2f

There are things you can do with a GFX100 that the XF can't - and there are things the XF can do that the GFX can't.
Title: Re: GFX100, a 15 fold increase of value compared to an XF IQ350 (per Bernard)
Post by: BernardLanguillier on July 11, 2019, 08:52:43 pm
I did a write up as to why the GFX100 really is huge.  Having spent a week with the IQ4 150 since then, I can clearly state they both have their own spaces.
https://medium.bikehugger.com/why-the-fujifilm-gfx-100-matters-b37337a34f2f

There are things you can do with a GFX100 that the XF can't - and there are things the XF can do that the GFX can't.

Thanks Joe, nice write up.

Cheers,
Bernard
Title: Re: GFX100, a 15 fold increase of value compared to an XF IQ350 (per Bernard)
Post by: landscapephoto on July 12, 2019, 02:17:39 am
Of course, it's impossible to know how many sensors the aerial mapping/intelligence folks are buying... Some of that work is commercial, for everything from real estate development to agriculture and forestry to ecological science (even those numbers are hard to get, but there's no reason they should be impossible. A largeproportion, however, is classified spy secrets.

Most developed countries are photographed regularly from the air as evidenced by google map pictures. In addition to what you see on google, agriculture uses pictures taken in several bands outside of the visible. The corresponding maps are translated to instructions for GPS-guided agricultural machines, e.g. varying the quantities of nutrients delivered to the plants within a single field. All these need quantities of pictures.

The cameras in the planes are arranged in pods of a few cameras, typically between 4 and 10. MF cameras are often used because the increased resolution, which directly translates into less flight time.

None of this is classified spy secrets. Covert operations do not use planes, which would need authorisation to enter airspace, but satellites. Satellites typically (but not always) use linear sensors, because the satellite regular movement makes it an ideal scanner head.