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Author Topic: The American Constitution  (Read 83241 times)

Rob C

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Re: The American Constitution
« Reply #400 on: June 11, 2019, 07:40:13 am »

LOL, good point on the levees.  I saw something a few years back on how they were not in fact built in the best possible way.  Scientists predict that when the next big one hits, most of the levees will collapse, causing even more problems then just the immediate destruction from the earthquake. 

Insofar as what is causing the homelessness, I feel it is a combination of factors.  As was stated earlier, the warmer weather and not having to fear freezing to death in the winter certainly adds to the problem. 

Also, housing in CA is very expensive.  From what I've read this is due to three factors, the environmental laws make it extremely difficult to develop undeveloped land.  Residents have way too much say in preserving the look of the neighborhood, making it very difficult to get multi-family structure built.  Both of these keep supply levels low, even though demand is increasing.  And last, Prop 13 limits how much existing homeowners can have their property taxes raised year over year, so to make up for the deficit this creates, new owners get a extremely large increase in property tax when they first buy.  So this leads to some people falling down on their luck and becoming homeless, however ...

The majority of the homeless in CA are not these people, they are addicts and those with mental illness (just like every where else).  The group above typically has enough sense to seek help, whereas many addicts and mentally ill do not want help (or at least turn it down).  Getting help requires getting sober, which some addicts don't like, or taking your meds, which some mentally ill do not like due to the side effects.  So, since these people are adults, they can refuse help. 

Now the issue in CA, from what I have read, is that it is now not illegal to camp in public places or sleep in your car overnight.  (From a moral and empathy perspective, I can understand this.)  So if you have a large amount of homeless, who are homeless due to their addiction, and they refuse help, you cant do anything about since they are allowed to be there.  In other states, you can arrest them and at least take them to a center to get help.  It may not seem right arresting an addict, but at the end of the day it is better then leaving him/her on the street to continue their addiction.  Not to mention, having all the public health concerns that comes with homelessness is something to be avoided as well.


Maybe the wrong folks were "encouraged" into reservations.

But as you already had the idea...

We, mainly, did better: we deported them across the Atlantic. And aren't many of their descendents the happier for it! Ditto Australia.

:-)

JoeKitchen

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Re: The American Constitution
« Reply #401 on: June 11, 2019, 07:48:16 am »

the Midwest flooding has been well documented.  The amount of corn acreage that has been planted this year is dramatically below normal and there is a good possibility that a lot of farmers will lose the whole planting season.  It's not clear whether they will be able to get soybeans planted (a shorter growing season).  It's not just the levee situation but swollen rivers prevent barge traffic as well.  there was a good story in the paper this AM about the situation in northwest Arkansas where they cannot deliver fertilizer to farmers at all.

First, I am not sure what this has to do with the levee situation in CA?  ???  It is true in both situations that the fact that we are trying to control nature is present and will have unforeseen consequences.  But the added homeless digging into parts of the levees is certainly making it worse in CA.  Add on the possibility of an earthquake, and the gates of hell could really open up. 

Second, I am not sure what to do about the situation in the midwest.  I once read that our desire to control the Mississippi and keep it from flooding was actually having adverse effects since the Mississippi is suppose to naturally flood and change course, slightly, over time.  This then causes all sorts of problems, like making the river shallower.  How do you fix this?  Letting nature takes its course is going to cause a lot of property damage along the banks of the river, which would be not very popular.  But would this be easier and better then dealing with the side effects of us controlling the river? 

It's like our current issue with forest fires.  Forests naturally burn every 25 years or so, which is a good thing since the burns up the dead fuel on the floor and typically, after only 25 years of build up, the fire is not strong enough to kill the forest.  However, letting a forest burn when it catches on fire is not particular popular, especially for those living there.  So we stop the fires and let the build up of fuel continue so when a fire does ignite after a 100+ years, it is so strong it destroys everything, including the forest. 

So what is the better option?  Stop fires when they start knowing eventually there will be enough fuel on the floor to create a massively strong fire that destroys everything, or let small fires burn themselves out regardless of who lives/works there?  I cant figure out what would be best here, just like with whether or not we should try to control large rivers. 
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Rob C

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Re: The American Constitution
« Reply #402 on: June 11, 2019, 07:50:48 am »

Is it a good idea for the US to advocate destroying the economy of Britain?  Banks are already relocating, the European Medecines Agency (the FDA for all of the EU) is leaving London with a couple of thousand good paying jobs, auto manufacturers will be next alone with other industries that rely on customs free delivery of parts from the EU.  Negotiating anything with Britain is not going to change the US relationship with the EU which is a far bigger trading partner.

And it will change existing relationships with Britain, should it go through with this stuff, because on its own, it becomes an instant, relative minnow.

Why does this escape so many here; why does xenophobia blind so many to their own cost? The real fight was never with felllow Europeans; it began before there was a European union of any kind.

Friggin' history. Nobody reads it anymore, or if they do, then a politically corrected one that leads to the desecration of ancient statues and monuments to past heroes turned, almost overnight, into ogres. In Glasgow, they even changed the name of a famous city square where, if memory serves, stood an excellent map shop, symbolic key to the wider world.

Alan Klein

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Re: The American Constitution
« Reply #403 on: June 11, 2019, 08:15:42 am »

Problem is Rob, your right, but San Fran is refusing to identify where each pile came from.  They have admitted that they don't care to figure that out, and are just cleaning it up.  I mean from a logistical stand point, can you really expect those cleaning it up to inspect it too?   No. 

But then again, if so, you cant claim all of a sudden it is from dogs. 
The poop area in San Francisco is Speaker of the House of Representatives Nancy Pelosi's district.  Now you know why nothing works in Congress. 

Alan Klein

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Re: The American Constitution
« Reply #404 on: June 11, 2019, 08:35:03 am »

Trump knows nothing about international trade and his steps are being guided by a couple of loony economists who are so far from the mainstream it isn't funny.  Is there such a think as a British car maker?  I don't think so.  Ford use to own Jaguar and then sold it to Tata Motors who are headquartered in India.  I don't know if all of Jaguar and Landrover parts are made in the UK or if some are sourced from elsewhere.  Minicooper are owned by BMW and again, I don't know whether 100% of content comes from the UK.  Other foreign owned British manufacturers are extremely concerned about Brexit.  There is a large Nissan plant in the northern part of the UK where there was a large pro-Brexit vote.  that plant is in danger of being relocated because of parts acquisition issues that will be come more complicated under Brexit.  What else does the US buy from the UK??  In our own home the only things we have are Twinings tea.  I did buy a Burburry trench coat but that was about 20 years ago.  It's not clear to me what value the US will get from a UK trade negotiation.
I certainly don't place much faith in Trump's business experience.  He is the self-professed 'King of Debt' and that has not served him very well on some well documented occasions.  He was fortunate to be bailed out by his father on at least one occasion (and of course his father provided him with a considerable amount of money to start with).  His real estate losses are well documented and the fact that he was able to establish many LLCs to protect his holdings kept him from real bankruptcy (this is something that most small businesses that are not real estate holding companies can't take advantage of).  His sweetheart deals with the private banking group at Deutsche Bank are well documented and weird in that the merchant banking division of the company cut him off after his Chicago loans defaulted.  We also don't have a full understanding of whether various foreign parties used Trump real estate for money laundering.

Doesn't the fact that he has refused to disclose his current income tax return bother you?  Don't we have a right to know whether there are any fishy things going on?  I'll leave aside the fact that many of his business practices were immoral (e.g., not paying contractors their due payment).

You're wrong in your understanding of American trade with Britain.  The UK is America's 7th largest trading partner after Mexico, Canada, China, Japan, Germany and South Korea.  They're 5th in exports and 7th in imports.  That's a lot of English tea.  So making a good deal with Britain will influence deals with other countries and  the EU. 
https://www.census.gov/foreign-trade/statistics/highlights/toppartners.html

Forbes estimates Trump's wealth at $3 billion.  So all this nonsense about him being poor is just fake news.

Also, the reason he has so many LLC's is because with each deal, he sets up a different corporation to limit liability from one deal from the other.  I believe he has over 500 LLC's; each one would file it's own taxes.  That's standard practice. Also, most of his deals are only selling the Trump name to be put on the building (hotel, apartment complex etc.)  So Trump Malaysia, let's say, is being built by some Malaysia company who uses Trump's dame to help sell the apartments.  Trump gets paid for the use of his name but isn't constructing the building.  He's got nothing to do with the contractors or construction.  But I do agree with you that I would never do business with him because of his bill paying reputation.  But that doesn;t mean he doesn;t know how to negotiate a good deal.  He does from all his experience through the years.  With 500 business, he's got a lot of practice. 
https://www.forbes.com/sites/chasewithorn/2018/10/03/donald-trump-falls-11-more-spots-on-the-forbes-400-list/#49ed470e79f1

Alan Klein

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Re: The American Constitution
« Reply #405 on: June 11, 2019, 09:01:13 am »


1. How many times does it to make you get the same point?

Let me try to spell it out, as much for you as for those kids in the now infamous school in Britain getting sex-orientation "guidance":

Trump, in much of Europe, is a figure of derision. In some parts of Britain, however, there is sufficient ignorance, neo-Naziism, faith in unicorns, fairy godmothers et al. that a newly prominent Brit such as Farage, allied with a popular cartoon character like our Boris, who gets to talk and shake hands with a showbiz hero and golf course owner, one of the fatter fat cats, appears to hold the key to the unfolding of an American cheque book that will then be shaken and strirred all over the benighted land, creating massive advantages and pay packets.

That, as you so eloquently said yourself below (and described even earlier as a tactic of divide and conquer):

"Once Brexit happens, if we can negotiate a good deal with them, it will help us negotiate a better deal with the EU.  For example, if we buy more British cars because they don;t have more tariffs on our stuff, then the German cars makers will insist the German government give those damn Americans a better deal and reduce German tariffs on our stuff too.  That's how it will work.  If the EU eventual ends, a possibility, then we'll be able to negotiate with individual countries who will be competing with each other to sell their stuff to us and provide better deals to get our business.  That's how the world works.  Trump knows that.  Don;t you think he played one contractor against the other when he bought out construction for his real estate?  I saw that in real life once when he squeezed the company I was working for and then gave it to a competitor anyway.  (The competitor was a German firm!! - Siemens. ) One advantage of a business experienced president."

is one of the prime reasons Brits at large should open their eyes and cover their ears. Trump is playing the UK for idiots, and in this current state of national madness, he's right. And as Oscar and I have already indicated, the ultimate destruction of some European solidarity makes the expansionist inclinations of Russia ever more possible to accomplish.

Quite why you consider a business tactic that screwed your own employers a good one, also leaves my mind wondering thoughts about you. I see that not a million miles from kissing the guy who mugged you. Future deals with anyone who does that also brings to mind this: screw me once, shame on you; screw me twice, shame on me. So what do you do? You vote for the guy. Hey ho.

2. I am referring to the influence that I described above and in earlier posts, including the public backing of a specific candidate in another country's internal election processes, made even the more shocking by doing so during a state visit to that country. Exactly what Russia did to aid Trump get to power. Many of your own countymen objected strongly to that interference; I do the same here. Far fom being a clever politician, he has simply laid himself open to even stronger pressure from without the States; his own Faustian deal, if you like. The kinder assumption, of course, being that he will see it as pressure, not as something he cherishes. And guess who will pay the price, either way, both in your country as in mine?

Did Trump cause the recent shift to the right in the EU elections?  Apparently France, Italy and other are moving how GB moved.  Could it be that people in Europe are just tired of having to turn over their rights to some unelected foreigners in Brussels?

As far as divide and conquer, since when does getting better deals playing off one supplier against another immoral or not standard business practices?    I just got a quote to repair my air conditioning.  I think the price is too high.  I intend to call other repair companies and get competitive prices letting them all know that I'm doing that so they'll sharpen their pencils and give me lower price.  You make it sound like Europeans are "rubes" and don;t know how to negotiate.  Give me a break.  EU tariffs have been higher than ours for years.  It's only past American presidents were the "rubes" who didn;t know how to negotiate. So now we have TRump who does and you don;t like the competition any more because Europe won;t be able to get away with high tariffs like they use too.  Of course the American press, all Trump haters, take foreigner's sides instead of standing up for America.  And foreigners buy into the press and Trump hating because they see their trade profits evaporating under a Trump presidency.   The same thing happened with NATO costs and European defense spending.  He's hurting your pocketbook.  But that's good for Americans.  We can still be friends and allies.  We're just making better financial deals for ourselves.

Rob C

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Re: The American Constitution
« Reply #406 on: June 11, 2019, 10:53:34 am »

Trump knows nothing about international trade and his steps are being guided by a couple of loony economists who are so far from the mainstream it isn't funny.  Is there such a think as a British car maker?  I don't think so.  Ford use to own Jaguar and then sold it to Tata Motors who are headquartered in India.  I don't know if all of Jaguar and Landrover parts are made in the UK or if some are sourced from elsewhere.  Minicooper are owned by BMW and again, I don't know whether 100% of content comes from the UK.  Other foreign owned British manufacturers are extremely concerned about Brexit.  There is a large Nissan plant in the northern part of the UK where there was a large pro-Brexit vote.  that plant is in danger of being relocated because of parts acquisition issues that will be come more complicated under Brexit.  What else does the US buy from the UK??  In our own home the only things we have are Twinings tea.  I did buy a Burburry trench coat but that was about 20 years ago.  It's not clear to me what value the US will get from a UK trade negotiation.
I certainly don't place much faith in Trump's business experience.  He is the self-professed 'King of Debt' and that has not served him very well on some well documented occasions.  He was fortunate to be bailed out by his father on at least one occasion (and of course his father provided him with a considerable amount of money to start with).  His real estate losses are well documented and the fact that he was able to establish many LLCs to protect his holdings kept him from real bankruptcy (this is something that most small businesses that are not real estate holding companies can't take advantage of).  His sweetheart deals with the private banking group at Deutsche Bank are well documented and weird in that the merchant banking division of the company cut him off after his Chicago loans defaulted.  We also don't have a full understanding of whether various foreign parties used Trump real estate for money laundering.

Doesn't the fact that he has refused to disclose his current income tax return bother you?  Don't we have a right to know whether there are any fishy things going on?  I'll leave aside the fact that many of his business practices were immoral (e.g., not paying contractors their due payment).


I can't, off the top of my head, think of a single significant car company in the UK that is still totally British-owned. Neither can I think of many manufactured products that Britain buys from the US. Cars? The only ones that appear to have had an impact of sorts are Jeep variants and Ford's Mustangs. In general, nobody really wants manufactured products very much because they have all they want available closer to home. Even online buying doesn't alter the import taxes they would have to pay. Are Apple products really American-made in the true sense of the claim?

Folks in the UK would rather have a Mercedes if they want expensive and big, and for some, that translates into Bentley if they want ultra expensive. Cadillac? Are you kidding me? BMW sells well, especially the smaller, more "sporty" Series 3-as-was. I believe that when it became known that BMW has/had? a factory in the US producing the Z sports models, sales in Britain shrank quickly. Rightly or wrongly, the German reputation for engineering is high, the American one not. By the way your own folks buy Japanese, many of you think the same, regardless of Slobodan's pet phrase to the contrary! :-)

Trump slapping on tariffs and taxes or other tricks will not make people want to buy stuff from him they didn't want to buy already. But hey, I bet he doesn't believe it either; it's the promises game that wins political power. That he knows very well. Cranking life into rustbelt corpses will produce nothing but debt and worse to come when renewed hopes and aspirations are once more dashed by cruel reality. Perhaps, by then, he will have left the country for a retirement where nobody can find him. St Petersburg is apparently a beautiful place...

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: The American Constitution
« Reply #407 on: June 11, 2019, 11:29:05 am »

... why does xenophobia blind so many to their own cost?...

Xenophobia is such a blanket word, too much generalization. Firstly, it is defined as a irrational fear of foreigners. Well, when it is rational, it ain't xenophobia any more. Secondly, it is rarely about all foreigners, but specific ones. Which again wouldn't be xenophobia.

Therefore, I propose a new, better suited word: barbarophobia™ (royalties for the future use of the word go to me, please. PM me for bank details)

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: The American Constitution
« Reply #408 on: June 11, 2019, 11:42:44 am »

... Cranking life into rustbelt corpses...

It is actually working real well. And by whom? The loathed oil companies.

"Shell Sees New Role for Former Steel Region: Plastics"

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/26/business/shell-polyethylene-factory-pennsylvania.html?fbclid=IwAR045MgDddF8jzttdEvjOAY8BeDooBxP_WvIPy1NZ76dvah1KXYtCVbsTGo

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The oil and gas company is returning to the polyethylene market, building a 386-acre plant on the site of a long-shuttered zinc smelter on the Ohio River.



Robert Roaldi

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Re: The American Constitution
« Reply #409 on: June 11, 2019, 11:57:48 am »


I can't, off the top of my head, think of a single significant car company in the UK that is still totally British-owned. Neither can I think of many manufactured products that Britain buys from the US. Cars? The only ones that appear to have had an impact of sorts are Jeep variants and Ford's Mustangs. In general, nobody really wants manufactured products very much because they have all they want available closer to home. Even online buying doesn't alter the import taxes they would have to pay. Are Apple products really American-made in the true sense of the claim?

Folks in the UK would rather have a Mercedes if they want expensive and big, and for some, that translates into Bentley if they want ultra expensive. Cadillac? Are you kidding me? BMW sells well, especially the smaller, more "sporty" Series 3-as-was. I believe that when it became known that BMW has/had? a factory in the US producing the Z sports models, sales in Britain shrank quickly. Rightly or wrongly, the German reputation for engineering is high, the American one not. By the way your own folks buy Japanese, many of you think the same, regardless of Slobodan's pet phrase to the contrary! :-)

Trump slapping on tariffs and taxes or other tricks will not make people want to buy stuff from him they didn't want to buy already. But hey, I bet he doesn't believe it either; it's the promises game that wins political power. That he knows very well. Cranking life into rustbelt corpses will produce nothing but debt and worse to come when renewed hopes and aspirations are once more dashed by cruel reality. Perhaps, by then, he will have left the country for a retirement where nobody can find him. St Petersburg is apparently a beautiful place...

The irony in all this is that the US still does manufacture many things, it's just that it's being done by assembly line robots: (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manufacturing_in_the_United_States). But even as I write this, I laugh to myself, I mean it's not as if anyone really wants to hear facts. Mythology beats reality every time. There are still people around who think the war on drugs is accomplishing something.

Trump's electioneering about getting manufacturing jobs back got him some rust belt votes but even they must realize by now that it's not happening. The very idea that Trump was working on their behalf is hilarious. It's not clear who he is working for but I'm not alone in that confusion. Take the way he talks about tariffs. He frames tariffs as some kind of weapon that he can use to browbeat other countries, many of whom should be (and have been) profitable economic allies and trading partners for years. He has peddled the notion that other countries have been screwing the US, and those arguments have found believers despite decades of evidence to the contrary. As if everyone else is "the enemy", when they clearly are not. But then, there are people who think the earth is flat, despite having no pictures from the edge, which should be kind of easy to get.

Just one more example from the balance of trade discussions. At one point in the last year or two, Trump criticized Canada because during some arbitrary period (month or quarter or something) the US bought more goods from Canada than Canada bought from the US, and thus he presented this as some kind of unfair treatment of the US by Canada. This is simply beyond stupid. It's drunk bar talk. But it got headlines, along with some criticism by analysts who know something about trade, but they were utterly drowned out.

The rust belt's issue still is that they don't believe anyone else is looking after them either, and they have a point. That hasn't changed. But as is seen on these pages, there are many people in the US who do not believe that the purpose of a country is to help look after its citizens. As soon as someone loses a job or gets sick, they're perfectly happy throwing them to the wolves. It's as if people really believe that the purpose of everything is to help make wealthy people wealthier. The willingness to take personal credit for when things go well and to apportion blame when things go badly to the very people who are having troubles is quite something to behold. It's as if luck doesn't exist despite it probably being the biggest factor affecting our lives. Did I hear a quote attributed Thatcher once, that there is no country, just individuals. It's everyone for themselves! That's fine if that's what you want, but I can foresee a problem recruiting cannon fodder for future wars. You can see the argument, why should I go die for a country that treats me like sh*t? It's a valid point of view.

There was an entry earlier in this thread (or maybe another, I get confused) from Slobodan who presented health insurance as a kind of moral hazard because it encouraged people to not look after their health. This presupposes that illness is due to personal neglect, which is only ever partly true. The notion that that minuscule moral hazard is utterly overwhelmed by countervailing benefits to every participant in that insurance system is wilful ignorance, an example of ideology replacing thought. Every study I've seen reports of shows that the US spends roughly twice as much as other developed countries on health (per capita), but has worse outcomes, all while a significant percentage of the population has no health care. Even if you draw healthy error bars on those numbers, it should raise concerns, shouldn't it? I suspect that the kleptocracy in the US does a good job of hiding those reports from public view. It's easy to do, just drown it in an incessant 24/7 media data dump about celebrity ass sizes.

Somewhere I referred to a book by Joseph Heath called "Filthy Lucre". Heath is a U of Toronto philosophy professor who has made a career of analyzing various illogics in public policy. That book is a terrific read. The first half is a examination of a list of items that the "right" repeatedly misunderstands, moral hazard being just one, the other being trade with other countries. The second half of the book (the larger "half") is a skewering of various things that the "left" repeatedly gets wrong, because of ideology repressing thought once again. I can't recommend it highly enough, from time to time it addresses almost all the issues raised in these pages in a very instructive way.
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Alan Goldhammer

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Re: The American Constitution
« Reply #410 on: June 11, 2019, 12:28:39 pm »

The irony in all this is that the US still does manufacture many things, it's just that it's being done by assembly line robots: (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manufacturing_in_the_United_States). But even as I write this, I laugh to myself, I mean it's not as if anyone really wants to hear facts. Mythology beats reality every time. There are still people around who think the war on drugs is accomplishing something.

Trump's electioneering about getting manufacturing jobs back got him some rust belt votes but even they must realize by now that it's not happening. The very idea that Trump was working on their behalf is hilarious. It's not clear who he is working for but I'm not alone in that confusion.
Look at all the votes Trump received in areas that produce coal.  He was talking about how he would revive that industry.  Where are the results here?  Coal mining jobs continue to decrease and coal fired power plants continue to be taken off line and replaced by natural gas.

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Just one more example from the balance of trade discussions. At one point in the last year or two, Trump criticized Canada because during some arbitrary period (month or quarter or something) the US bought more goods from Canada than Canada bought from the US, and thus he presented this as some kind of unfair treatment of the US by Canada. This is simply beyond stupid. It's drunk bar talk. But it got headlines, along with some criticism by analysts who know something about trade, but they were utterly drowned out.
Trump just doesn't understand international trade and his chosen advisors are just as clueless.  Trump's basic problem is he doesn't want anyone around him that is smarter than he is.  this really limits his choice of advisors in almost every field.  We see what happens to those who are knowledgeable; they quickly leave.

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The rust belt's issue still is that they don't believe anyone else is looking after them either, and they have a point. That hasn't changed. But as is seen on these pages, there are many people in the US who do not believe that the purpose of a country is to help look after its citizens. As soon as someone loses a job or gets sick, they're perfectly happy throwing them to the wolves. It's as if people really believe that the purpose of everything is to help make wealthy people wealthier. The willingness to take personal credit for when things go well and to apportion blame when things go badly to the very people who are having troubles is quite something to behold. It's as if luck doesn't exist despite it probably being the biggest factor affecting our lives. Did I hear a quote attributed Thatcher once, that there is no country, just individuals. It's everyone for themselves! That's fine if that's what you want, but I can foresee a problem recruiting cannon fodder for future wars. You can see the argument, why should I go die for a country that treats me like sh*t? It's a valid point of view.
Quite right and this has been the case for sometime.  Republicans don't care for these people any more than Hilary Clinton did.

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There was an entry earlier in this thread (or maybe another, I get confused) from Slobodan who presented health insurance as a kind of moral hazard because it encouraged people to not look after their health. This presupposes that illness is due to personal neglect, which is only ever partly true. The notion that that minuscule moral hazard is utterly overwhelmed by countervailing benefits to every participant in that insurance system is wilful ignorance, an example of ideology replacing thought. Every study I've seen reports of shows that the US spends roughly twice as much as other developed countries on health (per capita), but has worse outcomes, all while a significant percentage of the population has no health care. Even if you draw healthy error bars on those numbers, it should raise concerns, shouldn't it? I suspect that the kleptocracy in the US does a good job of hiding those reports from public view. It's easy to do, just drown it in an incessant 24/7 media data dump about celebrity ass sizes.
It's easy to scare people about non-existant death panels than it is to come up with a way to provide affordable health care.

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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: The American Constitution
« Reply #411 on: June 11, 2019, 12:29:22 pm »

... Slobodan who presented health insurance as a kind of moral hazard because it encouraged people to not look after their health. This presupposes that illness is due to personal neglect, which is only ever partly true. The notion that that minuscule moral hazard...

Miniscule!? If you think 40% is, than you are right:

https://www.commonwealthfund.org/blog/2018/rising-obesity-united-states-public-health-crisis

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Obesity is a grave public health threat, more serious even than the opioid epidemic. It is linked to chronic diseases including type 2 diabetes, hyperlipidemia, high blood pressure, cardiovascular disease, and cancer. Obesity accounts for 18 percent of deaths among Americans ages 40 to 85, according to a 2013 study challenging the prevailing wisdom among scientists, which had placed the rate at around 5 percent. This means obesity is comparable to cigarette smoking as a public health hazard; smoking kills one of five Americans and is the leading preventable cause of death in the United States.

The obesity crisis may be less dramatic than the opioid epidemic now gripping the nation, but it is just as deadly. Opioids accounted for around two-thirds of the 64,000 deaths related to drug overdose in 2016. Excess body weight leading to cancer causes about 7 percent of cancer-related deaths, or 40,000 deaths each year. This number doesn’t include deaths from the many other medical conditions associated with obesity. Obese people are between 1.5 to 2.5 times more likely to die of heart disease than people with normal body mass indices (BMIs).

There are also substantial economic losses associated with obesity. The medical costs of prevention, diagnosis, and treatment are estimated at $147 billion in 2008 dollars. Reduced economic productivity adds to these losses. 

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: The American Constitution
« Reply #412 on: June 11, 2019, 12:39:32 pm »

Robert, quite a nice Communist Manifesto you penned here. Too bad you are almost two hundred years late, already done. By Karl Marx.

P.S. My revision of the Groucho Marx (a much smarter Marx) quote:
« Last Edit: June 11, 2019, 12:55:52 pm by Slobodan Blagojevic »
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faberryman

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Re: The American Constitution
« Reply #413 on: June 11, 2019, 12:56:59 pm »

Not sure what you point is about obesity. Are we to infer that people without health insurance are fit and trim and people with health insurance are overweight and out of shape, all due to moral hazard? Or Republicans are fit and trim and Democrats overweight and out of shape?
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: The American Constitution
« Reply #414 on: June 11, 2019, 01:01:43 pm »

Not sure what you point is about obesity. Are we to infer that people without health insurance are fit and trim and people with health insurance are overweight and out of shape, all due to moral hazard? Or Republicans are fit and trim and Democrats overweight and out of shape?

This is a grownup discussion. Come back when you outgrow kindergarten logic.

faberryman

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Re: The American Constitution
« Reply #415 on: June 11, 2019, 01:13:12 pm »

This is a grownup discussion. Come back when you outgrow kindergarten logic.
Then what is your point? Or is there one?
« Last Edit: June 11, 2019, 02:00:32 pm by faberryman »
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James Clark

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Re: The American Constitution
« Reply #416 on: June 11, 2019, 03:12:04 pm »

Miniscule!? If you think 40% is, than you are right:

https://www.commonwealthfund.org/blog/2018/rising-obesity-united-states-public-health-crisis

And yet when people try to pass laws that educate the consumer on the content of the food they eat, the right cries about onerous burdens and regulation.  I'm cool with personal responsibility and the value of the judgment of the free market and all that, but for these things to work right, you have to have an *informed* market, and the right actively works to prevent this.  Why?
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Rob C

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Re: The American Constitution
« Reply #417 on: June 11, 2019, 04:11:51 pm »

And yet when people try to pass laws that educate the consumer on the content of the food they eat, the right cries about onerous burdens and regulation.  I'm cool with personal responsibility and the value of the judgment of the free market and all that, but for these things to work right, you have to have an *informed* market, and the right actively works to prevent this.  Why?


Why? Because nothing must halt the march of dimes big bucks.

Robert Roaldi

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Re: The American Constitution
« Reply #418 on: June 11, 2019, 04:28:17 pm »

Miniscule!? If you think 40% is, than you are right:

https://www.commonwealthfund.org/blog/2018/rising-obesity-united-states-public-health-crisis

You have lost me. Are you implying that the reason all these Americans are leading unhealthy lifestyles is because they have health insurance?
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Robert

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: The American Constitution
« Reply #419 on: June 11, 2019, 04:31:45 pm »

You have lost me. Are you implying that the reason all these Americans are leading unhealthy lifestyles is because they have health insurance?

One of the myriad contributing factors.
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