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Author Topic: Brexit Encore  (Read 150300 times)

Jeremy Roussak

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Re: Brexit Encore
« Reply #900 on: September 01, 2019, 01:26:34 pm »

I stopped after 3 minutes. What a load of bollocks! (Is that what Brits would say?). Just a typical leftist ignorance. How LLJ (Little Leftie Johnny) imagines capitalism.

It is (although I'd describe it as utter drivel), and it is.

It didn't take me that long. His argument, if it can be so dignified, is based on premises which he has invented.

Jeremy
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Robert Roaldi

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Re: Brexit Encore
« Reply #901 on: September 01, 2019, 02:03:46 pm »

The video suggestion by Rob C was more interesting.
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Rob C

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Re: Brexit Encore
« Reply #902 on: September 01, 2019, 03:47:34 pm »

The problem with everything like this is simple: left alone the world ticks on relatively calmly. Then, for what nobody will convince me is anything other than self-serving political ladder-climbing, the status quo is thrown up in the air to the tune of a thousand lies.

Despite claims to the opposite, it's obvious to anyone who cares to think about it, that the only winners are, indeed, going to be those capable of weathering and profiting from the disruption that is inevitable. Nobody in power gives a shit about the little guy oop north, never have, from any party. Those voters are just cannon fodder. British voting has been traditional for generations, regardless of how shamefully the punters are treated - it's all about the slogans and enshrined class hatreds. It's partly why we ended up with two major players. Maybe things are about to change with the introduction of a powerful new third bogeyman: foreign nationality hatred. Watch the two major players start to compete on that score.


I have never met anyone able to give me a first-hand example of a European having stolen their livelihood. On the other hand, I know of many Brits who have taken full advantage of Mallorcan health services whilst out here on holiday... from accident victims (plus relatives of Brits who have died on holiday this year) to those international British drunks that have to get scraped off the sidewalks in certain well-known resorts around Palma and even close to here: Alcudia.

Robert Roaldi

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Re: Brexit Encore
« Reply #903 on: September 01, 2019, 05:11:16 pm »

The problem with everything like this is simple: left alone the world ticks on relatively calmly. Then, for what nobody will convince me is anything other than self-serving political ladder-climbing, the status quo is thrown up in the air to the tune of a thousand lies.

Despite claims to the opposite, it's obvious to anyone who cares to think about it, that the only winners are, indeed, going to be those capable of weathering and profiting from the disruption that is inevitable. Nobody in power gives a shit about the little guy oop north, never have, from any party. Those voters are just cannon fodder. British voting has been traditional for generations, regardless of how shamefully the punters are treated - it's all about the slogans and enshrined class hatreds. It's partly why we ended up with two major players. Maybe things are about to change with the introduction of a powerful new third bogeyman: foreign nationality hatred. Watch the two major players start to compete on that score.


I have never met anyone able to give me a first-hand example of a European having stolen their livelihood. On the other hand, I know of many Brits who have taken full advantage of Mallorcan health services whilst out here on holiday... from accident victims (plus relatives of Brits who have died on holiday this year) to those international British drunks that have to get scraped off the sidewalks in certain well-known resorts around Palma and even close to here: Alcudia.

Some Canadian politicians have tried to adopt the "stop mass immigration" mantra, despite the face that Canada does not have the problem. I got a mailing once telling me that the current government is trying to take any my right to have a firearm, a right that does not exist here. We seem to be unable to find an osmotic barrier to stop stupidity.

Every survey I've seen in the last 30 years shows that Canada will have labour shortages in many sectors of the economy in the near to medium term, and there is no incentive program that will convince people to have lots more babies, so if we don't let immigrants in, we fall apart. I don't know if something similar applies to the USA, except that anecdotal evidence seems to suggest that most of its immigrants (legal or not) are working and paying taxes, which make them better citizens that the current President who brags about not paying taxes.

The ultimate stupidity about immigrants stealing jobs is that it implicitly assumes that the economy is a zero-sum game, for which Milton Friedman was heard spinning in his grave. The second most stupid comment is that "they are stealing our jobs". Oh yeah, who is "our" in this context. It's nobody's job until you apply for it and get hired. And then you only get to keep it if you do it properly. Country of origin has little bearing on that. If employers can't "old stock" find people to hire, you can't blame them for hiring immigrants, can you?

So instead of having an intelligent discussion about who you let in, how you check them out, how to integrate them, what to do with them if they turn out to be bums, all highly legitimate concerns, we have the current social media sh*t show, aided and abetted by cynical politicians who never seem to be able to solve any problems anymore.
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Jeremy Roussak

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Re: Brexit Encore
« Reply #904 on: September 01, 2019, 05:56:15 pm »

It works, but I can't get rid of the French voice.

Now that's a problem which has beset the EU for some time  ;)

Apart from the "It works" bit, of course.

Jeremy
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stamper

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Re: Brexit Encore
« Reply #905 on: September 02, 2019, 04:49:49 am »

jeremyrh

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Re: Brexit Encore
« Reply #906 on: September 02, 2019, 05:20:03 am »

This is bad news.

https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/brexit/2019/08/what-happens-brexpats-no-deal-brexit

Indeed.

I saw a TV interview with a British pensioner in Spain who voted Leave and had just bought a house and was now concerned that he would not be able to live there due to his medical situation. He had assumed that ending free movement did not apply to "proper Europeans" like him, only to some other group.
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Rob C

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Re: Brexit Encore
« Reply #907 on: September 02, 2019, 06:24:43 am »

Indeed.

I saw a TV interview with a British pensioner in Spain who voted Leave and had just bought a house and was now concerned that he would not be able to live there due to his medical situation. He had assumed that ending free movement did not apply to "proper Europeans" like him, only to some other group.

And that ¡s where Boris, Farage et al. came into their own.

Confuse the issue with images of hordes of marching migrants who never saw Britain, that if they wanted to, would try to get there whether or not the EEC existed! If anything, it's the Europeans at the sharp end that are doing their best to stop the traffic. They are the lands that have borne the brunt of it all. Britain has the Channel. That's it's first natural line of defence. Always was.

As for the person in the interiew mentioned above: that anyone would own property in Europe and then vote to leave just illustrates how stupid so many people have been over this issue, how devoid of any idea of actions and consequences.

Rob

kers

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Re: Brexit Encore
« Reply #908 on: September 02, 2019, 07:01:49 am »

It would not be very difficult to make fearful 'propaganda' about leaving the EU in line with the propaganda of the brexitieers...
But the remainers find that is not the way to go; Alas, it would be very effective to reach the audience of the people that voted leave.
The video you posted ( with Stephen Fry's voice) was full of reasonable information why leaving would not be a good idea, but most people find it to intellectual and prefer simple slogans, true or not.

There was a sketch in Holland in the 1990's about a populistic party called the Contra-Party.
Their slogan was: Everybody Rich!
« Last Edit: September 02, 2019, 07:07:01 am by kers »
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Brexit Encore
« Reply #909 on: September 02, 2019, 08:48:34 am »

... Britain has the Channel. That's it's first natural line of defence. Always was.l.

“How migrants cross the Channel from Calais” https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-49530997

Quote
Nearly 1,100 have successfully crossed the Channel this year, including more than 336 in August, that's the highest monthly figure ever recorded.

There is a whole camp of migrants in Calais, whose sole raison d’etre (pardon my French) is waiting to cross the Channel. Italy also has sea (almost) all around it. Never stopped migrants either.

Rob C

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Re: Brexit Encore
« Reply #910 on: September 02, 2019, 09:12:12 am »

“How migrants cross the Channel from Calais” https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-49530997

There is a whole camp of migrants in Calais, whose sole raison d’etre (pardon my French) is waiting to cross the Channel. Italy also has sea (almost) all around it. Never stopped migrants either.

Think of the figures if there was no Channel. Italy gets them mostly on the southern islands closer to Africa, and others come in from the east, overland. Greece is little better.

As long as there are people-smugglers willing to sell crappy inflatables to deperate people, the trade will continue.

Those camps at Calais underline the fact that Europe is not the perpetrator or cause of the migrant/refugee problem for Britain: they want to get out of Europe, where they are already legally "safe", because Britain offers a better set of freebies and bleeding hearts. It's Britain's own bloody fault.

jeremyrh

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Re: Brexit Encore
« Reply #911 on: September 02, 2019, 09:31:35 am »

because Britain offers a better set of freebies and bleeding hearts.


I doubt if that's actually the case. One thing that draws them is the fact that probably they have relatives already here, and that they speak the language.

Anyway - if you think this is bad, wait till the folk whose farms turned to dust head north looking for the fields made greener by all the lovely  co2!!
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Alan Klein

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Re: Brexit Encore
« Reply #912 on: September 02, 2019, 10:20:27 am »

Indeed.

I saw a TV interview with a British pensioner in Spain who voted Leave and had just bought a house and was now concerned that he would not be able to live there due to his medical situation. He had assumed that ending free movement did not apply to "proper Europeans" like him, only to some other group.
One of the reasons I'm against government control of medical care in the US is that we would give up personal control.  In effect, you turn over your life to some government bureaucrats who may reverse years of procedures due to changes in policy, economics, budgets, treaties, etc.  I'd rather make these decisions myself. 

Currently, because I'm a senior, I get Medicare controlled by the US government.  Because of it, many of the best doctors have "opted out".  They don;t accept Medicare coverage.  So if I want to use their services, I would have to pay "cash" out-of-pocket.  We already are losing our freedom of choice here too and suffering from the results of government control. 

Alan Klein

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Re: Brexit Encore
« Reply #913 on: September 02, 2019, 10:30:10 am »

Think of the figures if there was no Channel. Italy gets them mostly on the southern islands closer to Africa, and others come in from the east, overland. Greece is little better.

As long as there are people-smugglers willing to sell crappy inflatables to deperate people, the trade will continue.

Those camps at Calais underline the fact that Europe is not the perpetrator or cause of the migrant/refugee problem for Britain: they want to get out of Europe, where they are already legally "safe", because Britain offers a better set of freebies and bleeding hearts. It's Britain's own bloody fault.


What you describe is happening in the US as well.  Central Americans fleeing their horrendous conditions in their countries flee north into Mexico.  But they don;t stop there even though they are now safe.  Their real destination is America where we offer freebies the whole world is jealous of.  In Mexico, they'd have to get a lousy job, even if available.   We don't have an English Channel to keep them out, only a short walk across the shallow Rio Grande River.  So Trump wants to build a wall, our Channel.  Of course the bleeding hearts here think that's barbaric and we should open the gates to the world's desperate, actually something we've done for 200 years.  But they want to do it without any restraints or rules. 


When the next recession hits, all Americans will insist the entire wall be built. 

jeremyrh

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Re: Brexit Encore
« Reply #914 on: September 02, 2019, 10:30:20 am »

One of the reasons I'm against government control of medical care in the US is that we would give up personal control.  In effect, you turn over your life to some government bureaucrats who may reverse years of procedures due to changes in policy, economics, budgets, treaties, etc.  I'd rather make these decisions myself. 

Currently, because I'm a senior, I get Medicare controlled by the US government.  Because of it, many of the best doctors have "opted out".  They don;t accept Medicare coverage.  So if I want to use their services, I would have to pay "cash" out-of-pocket.  We already are losing our freedom of choice here too and suffering from the results of government control.

Thankfully we're none of us down to the level of stupidity of the US health care system. Of course post-Brexit that may change, but for now we're ok.
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Alan Klein

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Re: Brexit Encore
« Reply #915 on: September 02, 2019, 10:42:24 am »

Thankfully we're none of us down to the level of stupidity of the US health care system. Of course post-Brexit that may change, but for now we're ok.

But you do have that problem.  In fact you were the one who stated it.  I copied your post below.  The poor British guy has to give up his home in Spain and move back to Britain to get health care.   By the way, I had a friend who lived in Sao Paulo Brasil with his Brazilian wife.  He too had to give up the apartment they owned and return to the USA because Medicare wouldn't pick up costs to treat his heart disease while there.  Had he saved his Medicare tax deductions through the years, he could have had private insurance and stayed in Sao Paulo to breathe all that smoke from the Amazon fires.  Oh wait.  I'm conflating threads.

Indeed.

I saw a TV interview with a British pensioner in Spain who voted Leave and had just bought a house and was now concerned that he would not be able to live there due to his medical situation. He had assumed that ending free movement did not apply to "proper Europeans" like him, only to some other group.

Robert Roaldi

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Re: Brexit Encore
« Reply #916 on: September 02, 2019, 10:47:29 am »

One of the reasons I'm against government control of medical care in the US is that we would give up personal control.  In effect, you turn over your life to some government bureaucrats who may reverse years of procedures due to changes in policy, economics, budgets, treaties, etc.  I'd rather make these decisions myself. 

You keep repeating this mantra of loss of control and it simply isn't true. You just keep repeating the same ideological talking points that do not correspond to reality.
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jeremyrh

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Re: Brexit Encore
« Reply #917 on: September 02, 2019, 10:52:53 am »

But you do have that problem.  In fact you were the one who stated it.  I copied your post below.  The poor British guy has to give up his home in Spain and move back to Britain to get health care.   By the way, I had a friend who lived in Sao Paulo Brasil with his Brazilian wife.  He too had to give up the apartment they owned and return to the USA because Medicare wouldn't pick up costs to treat his heart disease while there.  Had he saved his Medicare tax deductions through the years, he could have had private insurance and stayed in Sao Paulo to breathe all that smoke from the Amazon fires.  Oh wait.  I'm conflating threads.

Why do you think that the person I referred to would be covered by Medicare?  In fact this guy has an option of moving somewhere where can can get free medical care. That is not, in general, possible in the US.

Actually I would be interested to know - and this is a genuine question - what would be the cost of fully comprehensive medical insurance in the US - covering EVERYTHING  - pre-existing conditions, chronic care, the lot?
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Alan Klein

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Re: Brexit Encore
« Reply #918 on: September 02, 2019, 10:53:28 am »

You keep repeating this mantra of loss of control and it simply isn't true. You just keep repeating the same ideological talking points that do not correspond to reality.
Ask Rob if he's losing control of his medical care in Spain. 

In any case, I haven;t noticed you changing your talking points.  We're up to page 49.  Has anyone changed their mind in this forum?  Ever?  :)

Alan Klein

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Re: Brexit Encore
« Reply #919 on: September 02, 2019, 11:08:27 am »

Why do you think that the person I referred to would be covered by Medicare?  In fact this guy has an option of moving somewhere where can can get free medical care. That is not, in general, possible in the US.

Actually I would be interested to know - and this is a genuine question - what would be the cost of fully comprehensive medical insurance in the US - covering EVERYTHING  - pre-existing conditions, chronic care, the lot?
He wouldn't have to move if he had private health care.  Neither would the person in the US with private health care. 

I don;t know what private health care costs anymore as I'm on both government Medicare and private insurance.  My wife and I still spend around $6000 a year for insurance not counting deductibles for both Medicare and private insurance premiums.  In any case, half of America's medical costs are being supported by the government.  That raises the cost of medical care because there's no incentive for individuals to cut back since the government pays.  That will get worse if everyone is covered by government or there will be government cutbacks on the care you can get.  There's a limit to how much money the government can spend.  Note that 40% of total insurance is by private insurance usually through places of work.  Here's a good chart on breakouts through the years.
https://www.chcf.org/publication/us-health-care-spending-who-pays/
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