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Author Topic: Brexit Encore  (Read 150266 times)

Alan Klein

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Re: Brexit Encore
« Reply #860 on: August 28, 2019, 05:57:17 pm »


In normal times, a PM already heads a government going into an election. When the populace votes, it is usually voting for the figurehead it thinks best represents their ideals. The other parties have their leaders in that spotlit position too.

The Queen, poor dear, has no politicsl power worth squat. In effect, she's hostage to a charade.

Well it is odd in this modern age to discuss democracy and monarchy in the same sentence, wouldn't you think? What kind of power would you give her and expect to maintain any semblance of democracy?  We Americans, for sure,  would not want to deal with the poor dear with the authority of let's say King George III.  We had enough of him and his General Cornwallis and the two Howe brothers in 1776 and don;t need to go through that again. :)

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Brexit Encore
« Reply #861 on: August 28, 2019, 06:00:33 pm »



[/quote]

In normal times, a PM already heads a government going into an election...

As Jeremy noted:

... Johnson is the fifth in as many decades, following Callaghan, Major, Brown and May.

Chris Kern

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Re: Brexit Encore
« Reply #862 on: August 28, 2019, 06:47:23 pm »

The Queen, poor dear, has no politics[a]l power worth squat.

"Her Majesty's a pretty nice girl,
"But she doesn't have a lot to say
"Her Majesty's a pretty nice girl
"But she changes from day to day. . . . "

   — Paul McCartney, 1969

Rob C

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Re: Brexit Encore
« Reply #863 on: August 29, 2019, 04:17:26 am »



As Jeremy noted:

... Johnson is the fifth in as many decades, following Callaghan, Major, Brown and May.

Which doesn't alter the facts, foremost being that they were not the heads of power for whom the vox pop voted.

And in this case, what has occurred, if you have noticed it, folks, is that we have had foisted upon us a cynic who, before the Brexit vote, had written two newspaper articles, one for and the other against Brexit, to be published as suites the agenda. In other words, a foot in either camp, depending on which would gain him most personal popularity and power in the days, months to come. In essence, a man of no convictions beyond that of self-promotion. And that the person now in charge of the fate of Britain. A person representing a small goup of wealthy, extreme nationalist Conservative politicians, none of whom is going to be in the least affected by whatever follows.

And you wonder why people are concerned?

jeremyrh

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Re: Brexit Encore
« Reply #864 on: August 29, 2019, 04:29:31 am »

Which doesn't alter the facts, foremost being that they were not the heads of power for whom the vox pop voted.

And in this case, what has occurred, if you have noticed it, folks, is that we have had foisted upon us a cynic who, before the Brexit vote, had written two newspaper articles, one for and the other against Brexit, to be published as suites the agenda. In other words, a foot in either camp, depending on which would gain him most personal popularity and power in the days, months to come. In essence, a man of no convictions beyond that of self-promotion. And that the person now in charge of the fate of Britain. A person representing a small goup of wealthy, extreme nationalist Conservative politicians, none of whom is going to be in the least affected by whatever follows.

And you wonder why people are concerned?

Also - a man who voted twice against TM's WA, and then, after she promised to resign if it was passed, he suddenly changed his mind and voted for it. He doesn't seem to have any convictions whatsoever - just what's good for him personally.
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jeremyrh

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Re: Brexit Encore
« Reply #865 on: August 29, 2019, 04:42:42 am »

It's not so rare: Johnson is the fifth in as many decades, following Callaghan, Major, Brown and May.

I think Johnson, like Darzi, is British.

Jeremy

Hmmm. It seems that my reply to this post has been deleted. How odd.
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Rob C

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Re: Brexit Encore
« Reply #866 on: August 29, 2019, 04:47:01 am »

Well it is odd in this modern age to discuss democracy and monarchy in the same sentence, wouldn't you think? What kind of power would you give her and expect to maintain any semblance of democracy?  We Americans, for sure,  would not want to deal with the poor dear with the authority of let's say King George III.  We had enough of him and his General Cornwallis and the two Howe brothers in 1776 and don;t need to go through that again. :)

Not in the least odd.

We have had that system in Britain for ages and ages, and mostly, it works pretty well. Much of its success or failure depends on the abilities and qualities of the person fulfilling the rôle, which is why there was so much anxiety - and still is - when people born and brough up outwith the confines of a life situation where pomp and circumstance and family responsibility and sacrifice are the basic raison d'ètre, come into the family through marriage. They don't have the background (and often not the culture) to cope, understand and take it on the chin when they have to do so. And if you think there is no sacrifice, ask yourself: how would you like to live a life where the spotlight is never off you and your relatives, where you have never enjoyed anonymity, and about the only publicity you are likely to get is that which comes in rabid piles when the press can find something to criticise you about, and over which to sell more trash news? And even then, the power of the person in the rôle is limited to ceremonial and representational functions.

And the value? The right person fosters a love of country, a rallying point of focus in emergencies such as war. The right person can - and does - exist as a person that can be looked upon as having the best of all desires and ambitions for his/her country at heart. CONTINUITY is perhaps its greatest function, something that lasts as representative of one's nation, whereas politicians come and go, squabble and squander and generally fuck us all about in their insane power games and vanities.

No, it is not the same thing as being a pop star. They have no massive consequences other than wet, teenage panties or, alternatively as well as possibly in tandem, eyes.

As to your references to monarchs of a bygone age, pointless nonsense: in this day and age you have to look outwith Britain and the rest of the first world to find that kind of monarchy; you are much more likely to find that kind of presidency. Look around you.

Rob

Alan Klein

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Re: Brexit Encore
« Reply #867 on: August 29, 2019, 09:20:47 am »

Rob I have no problem with the way you described royalty in your country. In fact I think it's very Noble. But my post was referring to your previous post where you bemoaned the fact she had no power and it seemed that you wish she had real power. That's contradictory to democracy. If she had real power what kind would you wish she had?

Alan Klein

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Re: Brexit Encore
« Reply #868 on: August 29, 2019, 10:32:43 am »

+1
Same question for you Bart. What power would you want your monarch have they don't have now?

kers

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Re: Brexit Encore
« Reply #869 on: August 29, 2019, 11:17:48 am »

Rob I have no problem with the way you described royalty in your country. In fact I think it's very Noble. But my post was referring to your previous post where you bemoaned the fact she had no power and it seemed that you wish she had real power. That's contradictory to democracy. If she had real power what kind would you wish she had?
The power of the monargy in England and in Holland is ceremonial.
And that is good.
They have power in a ceremonial way. Today they represent the face of the nation.
Political power is in the hands of the government and parlement as it should.
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Rob C

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Re: Brexit Encore
« Reply #870 on: August 29, 2019, 12:16:10 pm »

Rob I have no problem with the way you described royalty in your country. In fact I think it's very Noble. But my post was referring to your previous post where you bemoaned the fact she had no power and it seemed that you wish she had real power. That's contradictory to democracy. If she had real power what kind would you wish she had?

If she had real power, I'd like it to be one much as described by Bart: the legal ability to ask deeply probing questions, preferably in front of the highest judge in the realm, and to expect detailed, equally deep answers, without which she should be free to tell her troublesome PM to go away and return when better prepared.

Being obliged - apparently - to say yes to everything makes her position rather silly and, ultimately, herself as responsible as the government of the day for whatever disasters may follow in her name, regardless of her educated opinions possibly to the contary of what she is obliged to authorize.

And folks think royals have it easy.

Rhossydd

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Re: Brexit Encore
« Reply #871 on: August 29, 2019, 12:24:56 pm »

If she had real power, I'd like it to be one much as described by Bart: the legal ability to ask deeply probing questions, preferably in front of the highest judge in the realm, and to expect detailed, equally deep answers, without which she should be free to tell her troublesome PM to go away and return when better prepared.
If you read the autobiographies of past prime ministers you'll learn that this is pretty much exactly what happens every week when the PM meets the Queen.
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Rob C

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Re: Brexit Encore
« Reply #872 on: August 29, 2019, 02:58:11 pm »

If you read the autobiographies of past prime ministers you'll learn that this is pretty much exactly what happens every week when the PM meets the Queen.

Ah, that would mean passing time within the shadow of people I mostly think very little positive about. Happy to learn my idea wasn't crazy!

:-)
« Last Edit: August 30, 2019, 07:42:39 am by Rob C »
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Robert Roaldi

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Re: Brexit Encore
« Reply #873 on: August 29, 2019, 03:44:21 pm »

If you read the autobiographies of past prime ministers you'll learn that this is pretty much exactly what happens every week when the PM meets the Queen.

Makes me wonder if there isn't some psychological thing going on where this might be the only conversation all week long that the PM has where the other party isn't trying to sell him something or else looking for a place to stick the knife. :)
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Alan Klein

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Re: Brexit Encore
« Reply #874 on: August 29, 2019, 04:10:45 pm »

If she had real power, I'd like it to be one much as described by Bart: the legal ability to ask deeply probing questions, preferably in front of the highest judge in the realm, and to expect detailed, equally deep answers, without which she should be free to tell her troublesome PM to go away and return when better prepared.

Being obliged - apparently - to say yes to everything makes her position rather silly and, ultimately, herself as responsible as the government of the day for whatever disasters may follow in her name, regardless of her educated opinions possibly to the contary of what she is obliged to authorize.

And folks think royals have it easy.
I wonder how much the monarch would be liked if she did ask such probing questions and sent the duly and democratically elected Prime Minister away because he didn't answer the way she expected? "Now Boris, go sit in the corner." Just who's running the government?  The PM has to answer to the people.  A monarch answers to no one.   


In any case,  if I pull that stuff with my wife, you know what she tells me to do.  :)

Rob C

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Re: Brexit Encore
« Reply #875 on: August 29, 2019, 04:57:51 pm »

I wonder how much the monarch would be liked if she did ask such probing questions and sent the duly and democratically elected Prime Minister away because he didn't answer the way she expected? "Now Boris, go sit in the corner." Just who's running the government?  The PM has to answer to the people.  A monarch answers to no one.   


In any case,  if I pull that stuff with my wife, you know what she tells me to do.  :)

You asked a question and I gave you an honest answer. It's not my concern nor, probably, would it be hers in the situation of which we hypothesize here, to be loved: more would it be her concern to be right. In contrast, being loved, that's the stinking politician's only public concern. There are degrees of being a monarch; not all are absolute - that turns them into dictators, which is something else.

If we have a monarch who is also a congenital lier, we may as well do as you have done and just elect a president. Aren't they all in it for personal promotion, temporary taste of world-recognized power and the writing of lucrative memoirs at the end it all?

Rob

Alan Klein

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Re: Brexit Encore
« Reply #876 on: August 29, 2019, 05:25:29 pm »

You asked a question and I gave you an honest answer. It's not my concern nor, probably, would it be hers in the situation of which we hypothesize here, to be loved: more would it be her concern to be right. In contrast, being loved, that's the stinking politician's only public concern. There are degrees of being a monarch; not all are absolute - that turns them into dictators, which is something else.

If we have a monarch who is also a congenital lier, we may as well do as you have done and just elect a president. Aren't they all in it for personal promotion, temporary taste of world-recognized power and the writing of lucrative memoirs at the end it all?

Rob
The advantage of a president or prime minister is that their terms eventually ends or you can fire them under really bad behavior.  With a monarch, you could get stuck with stupidity or worse, brutal reign. 

Rob C

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Re: Brexit Encore
« Reply #877 on: August 30, 2019, 04:47:45 am »

The advantage of a president or prime minister is that their terms eventually ends or you can fire them under really bad behavior.  With a monarch, you could get stuck with stupidity or worse, brutal reign.

You're not paying attention.

All monarchies are not the same; ours has been tailored to suit a democratic form of government, even though it becomes ever more doubtful that democracy is a form of government that leads to optimum results.

To borrow an idea from fans of your Constitution: democracy puts power into the hands of an always numerically greater number of idiots than of wise people.

There is no denying that sad fact.

Alan Klein

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Re: Brexit Encore
« Reply #878 on: August 30, 2019, 06:57:58 am »

Not stupid people,  greedy people who want a free lunch.

Rob C

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Re: Brexit Encore
« Reply #879 on: August 30, 2019, 07:47:53 am »

Not stupid people,  greedy people who want a free lunch.

Agreed, but they are really the same: there is no free lunch, just as there is no free love: somebody always pays. That's from Suzi Quatro's mum, so it must be right. She's from Grosse Pointe, Michigan, you know.

The gems, the pearls...

:-)
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