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Author Topic: Brexit Encore  (Read 149451 times)

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Brexit Encore
« Reply #380 on: June 07, 2019, 02:50:32 pm »

...That people in public office are now allowed to lie...

Now!?

How about from the down of the mankind? In a democracy, it is punished or not by voting, not jail. The opposite indeed invokes Soviet Russia and China.

Alan Klein

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Re: Brexit Encore
« Reply #381 on: June 07, 2019, 03:13:52 pm »

How do you know when a politician is lying?

His lips are moving. 

jeremyrh

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Re: Brexit Encore
« Reply #382 on: June 07, 2019, 03:20:15 pm »


Unfortunately, that's just as worthy as the Trump case where he was kinda, sorta, but not absolutely cleared of guilt...

That people in public office are now allowed to lie, openly and without - it would seem - running the risk of being held responsible for barefaced lies, is frightening indeed, and it's surprising that Slobodan would appear to be lauding such behaviour as a freedom of speech issue. Oh well, live and learn; perhaps it's the Floridian humidity to blame. It's the kindest explanation I can come up with in the circumstances. To me, it's the sort of political whitewashing one might expect to hear about in China or Russia.

Note also the case of women whose pension age was raised - a lawyer for the government has argued that there is no obligation on their part to notify or consider the predicament of the victims of a policy decision. Apparently the government can now do anything it wants without any available challenge.
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Rob C

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Re: Brexit Encore
« Reply #383 on: June 07, 2019, 03:22:47 pm »

Now!?

How about from the down of the mankind? In a democracy, it is punished or not by voting, not jail. The opposite indeed invokes Soviet Russia and China.

The difference lies in being given licence to lie and just lying.

That's kinda crucial, don't you think?

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Brexit Encore
« Reply #384 on: June 07, 2019, 03:44:57 pm »

The difference lies in being given licence to lie and just lying.

That's kinda crucial, don't you think?

No, I do not. Freedom of speech implies a license to lie.

Rob C

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Re: Brexit Encore
« Reply #385 on: June 07, 2019, 03:54:24 pm »

No, I do not. Freedom of speech implies a license to lie.


Try some water or tonic with it next round!

:-)

Robert Roaldi

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Re: Brexit Encore
« Reply #386 on: June 07, 2019, 06:09:21 pm »

In a democracy, it is punished or not by voting, not jail.

Depends on the lie. Sometimes it's electioneering bs, sometimes it's a crime. You can't possibly be saying that politicians are above the law.
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Brexit Encore
« Reply #387 on: June 07, 2019, 06:11:41 pm »

Depends on the lie. Sometimes it's electioneering bs, sometimes it's a crime. You can't possibly be saying that politicians are above the law.

Which law criminalizes political lying?

32BT

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Re: Brexit Encore
« Reply #388 on: June 07, 2019, 06:24:36 pm »

Which law criminalizes political lying?

Libel. You may not claim your opponent is corrupt without proof for example. Or better, you can claim it, but freedom of speech isn't going to protect you.

However, a true politician will cunningly say "I suspect you of yada yada, and I will proof it bla bla" and then the damage is also done without the actual claim.
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Brexit Encore
« Reply #389 on: June 07, 2019, 06:37:36 pm »

Libel. You may not claim your opponent is corrupt without proof for example. Or better, you can claim it, but freedom of speech isn't going to protect you.

However, a true politician will cunningly say "I suspect you of yada yada, and I will proof it bla bla" and then the damage is also done without the actual claim.

Libel is a civil matter, not criminal. It is not the government that is after you for libel, but the person you offended.

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Brexit Encore
« Reply #390 on: June 07, 2019, 06:52:09 pm »

Try some water or tonic with it next round!

Rob, good whisky deserves to be enjoyed neat ;)

Rob C

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Re: Brexit Encore
« Reply #391 on: June 08, 2019, 03:50:32 am »

Rob, good whisky deserves to be enjoyed neat ;)

That is probably true, but whiskey?

;-)

Jeremy Roussak

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Re: Brexit Encore
« Reply #392 on: June 08, 2019, 04:02:12 am »

Unfortunately, that's just as worthy as the Trump case where he was kinda, sorta, but not absolutely cleared of guilt...

It would be prudent to withhold comment until the judgment of the Divisional Court is handed down; at present, we have only the decision, without the reasons. Johnson's argument was simply that the charge - misconduct in public office - was misconceived and the prosecution both politically-motivated and vexatious. The earlier District Judge's decision, which is available here, made no sense.

Jeremy

edit: added link to DJ's judgment
« Last Edit: June 08, 2019, 04:46:30 am by Jeremy Roussak »
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Rob C

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Re: Brexit Encore
« Reply #393 on: June 08, 2019, 07:40:27 am »

It would be prudent to withhold comment until the judgment of the Divisional Court is handed down; at present, we have only the decision, without the reasons. Johnson's argument was simply that the charge - misconduct in public office - was misconceived and the prosecution both politically-motivated and vexatious. The earlier District Judge's decision, which is available here, made no sense.

Jeremy

edit: added link to DJ's judgment


Prudent withholding comes at a price: loss of the apposite moment!

I'm sure there's a "French" man of letters who could vouch for that...

:-)

Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Brexit Encore
« Reply #394 on: June 20, 2019, 12:44:49 pm »

The article might be behind a paywall, but I thought the illustration speaks for itself:

https://www.economist.com/leaders/2019/06/20/which-boris-would-britain-get

Quote
In Europe we analyse the career of the overwhelming favourite to become Britain’s next prime minister. Boris Johnson has assumed different guises at different times. As mayor of liberal, cosmopolitan London in 2008-16 he preached the virtues of immigration and the single market. As a leading light in the Leave campaign he effortlessly switched to criticising migration and warning of the dangers of Turkish membership of the EU, which he had previously advocated. Today he talks up the prospect of leaving the EU without a deal. As the Brexit saga drags on, Britain is growing ever more polarised. In a starkly divided country, which gallery would Mr Johnson play to?
« Last Edit: June 20, 2019, 12:52:15 pm by Slobodan Blagojevic »
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Rob C

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Re: Brexit Encore
« Reply #395 on: June 21, 2019, 10:29:48 am »

Reminds me of what I suppose a post-Brexit Britain will be offering its people:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ww5bGpbDcXY

Rob C

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Re: Brexit Encore
« Reply #396 on: June 21, 2019, 10:31:28 am »

The article might be behind a paywall, but I thought the illustration speaks for itself:

https://www.economist.com/leaders/2019/06/20/which-boris-would-britain-get


And the lemmings cheer, and order another round of beer.

Rob

jeremyrh

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Re: Brexit Encore
« Reply #397 on: June 21, 2019, 11:45:11 am »

Rob - my Plan B is to move to Ireland. Have you thought of that?
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Slobodan Blagojevic

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Re: Brexit Encore
« Reply #398 on: June 21, 2019, 11:57:56 am »

Rob - my Plan B is to move to Ireland. Have you thought of that?

Yes, like the left in the US promised to move to Canada. Nobody did.

jeremyrh

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Re: Brexit Encore
« Reply #399 on: June 21, 2019, 01:14:24 pm »

Yes, like the left in the US promised to move to Canada. Nobody did.
Not really. Depending on the exact Brexit outcome my family may not be able to stay together in the UK, so Plan B would become Plan A.

As a matter of interest, do USAns have the right to move to Canada?
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