Brexit Encore

[Rob C]

Our Medicare program only covers health care in the US.  If I decide to become an ex-pat and move to the South of France, I am not covered.  Additionally, Medicare does not cover everything and one needs to purchase supplemental insurance to minimize costs.  Medicare is also not free!!!  There are deductibles and co-pays AND a monthly premium that is based on one's retirement earnings.  The cost to my wife and I for our Medicare, pharmaceutical coverage, and supplemental insurance is about $15K/year ---- not exactly cheap.

Neither is the UK system free, insofar as it comes out of your national insurance payments which have to be made along with your state pension ones either through your employer making the deductions from your wages or, if self-employed, by you making regular payments. At the time when I was paying, the system was that you filled a booklet with little coupons/stamps every week and paid in that way. Also, depending on earnings, there used to be a percentage added to the annual insurance contributions bill based on whatever you were earning. Eventually, when I moved away, it was possible to pay a lump sum by cheque once a year. Much more convenient.

Where the concept of being free comes into being is at the point of delivery: you don't get flung out of hospital after treatment with a financial albatross of debt around your neck, nor are you refused treatment.

It was the reciprocity deal that allowed Bits to enjoy the same help in Eurpope as do the citizens of the host country, and of couse, the other way around. That's what seems likely to be sunk without trace.

If May's exit proposal deal had been accepted, Brits living abroad would still have been affected to a degree, with health aid restricted to the country of residence. In other words, as I live in Spain, were I wishing to drive to Britain, I would still be covered within Spain, but not when I crossed the border into France. As for Brits on holiday, I think they would have lost that former health goody too under May's deal.

No change was the better option for both expats as for holidaymakers.

[Alan Goldhammer]

Neither is the UK system free, insofar as it comes out of your national insurance payments which have to be made along with your state pension ones either through your employer making the deductions from your wages or, if self-employed, by you making regular payments. At the time when I was paying, the system was that you filled a booklet with little coupons/stamps every week and paid in that way. Also, depending on earnings, there used to be a percentage added to the annual insurance contributions bill based on whatever you were earning. Eventually, when I moved away, it was possible to pay a lump sum by cheque once a year. Much more convenient.

During one's working career it is basically the same in the US.  One pays both 'tax' for Social Security (pension) and Medicare.  However, one continues paying for health care when retired and those premiums are taken out of the Social Security pension payments.  In the UK, do you have to pay an NHS fee when you are retired?

[Alan Klein]

Ok, so medical is a major issue within the EU rules.  I was wrong about that.   But why would you want them to regulate your health rather than your own parliament?  After all, it's your democratic votes that give guidance to your PM's.  Don't you trust your own government?  Why would you trust the EU government more? 

[Robert Roaldi]

Ok, so medical is a major issue within the EU rules.  I was wrong about that.   But why would you want them to regulate your health rather than your own parliament?  After all, it's your democratic votes that give guidance to your PM's.  Don't you trust your own government?  Why would you trust the EU government more?

You keep framing this as a sovereignty issue, but it's not clear to me why this would be a factor in the UK any more than anywhere else. Why would Britons find onerous that which the French and Germans (and others) think is just fine? If the loss of sovereignty is a major issue, as you assert, shouldn't they all be trying to "exit"?

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

You keep framing this as a sovereignty issue, but it's not clear to me why this would be a factor in the UK any more than anywhere else....

Splendid Isolation.

[Robert Roaldi]

Splendid Isolation.

Maybe, but I've never thought of France or Germany as shrinking violets in that regard.

[Slobodan Blagojevic]

... that which the French and Germans (and others) think is just fine?...

But of course, the two, who established the EU, managed to achieve what hundreds of years of their wars didn't: to control Europe without a single bullet fired. The two most blood-thirsty, war-waging, occupying powers in Europe in recent history, the new guarantors of peace in Europe? Talk about putting a fox in charge of the henhouse. No one sees the irony?

[jeremyrh]

But why would you want them to regulate your health rather than your own parliament? 

Who says they do? What exactly are you talking about?

[Manoli]

Don't you trust your own government?

No.

Boris Johnson has been summoned to court to face accusations of misconduct in public office over comments made in the run-up to the EU referendum.  The plaintiff contends Johnson lied and engaged in criminal conduct when he repeatedly claiming during the 2016 EU referendum campaign that the UK sent £350m a week to Brussels,

Coleman (the magistrate) ruled on Wednesday:  “The allegations which have been made are unproven accusations and I do not make any findings of fact. Having considered all the relevant factors I am satisfied that this is a proper case to issue the summons as requested for the three offences as drafted. The charges are indictable only.. This means the proposed defendant will be required to attend this court for a preliminary hearing, and the case will then be sent to the crown court for trial. The charges can only be dealt with in the crown court.”

In her ruling on Wednesday, the judge said she was satisfied there was a prima facie case for the allegation that there had been an abuse of the public’s trust in a holder of office. She referred to statements provided by Ball’s team from members of the public that addressed the impact that “the apparent lie” had had on them. She also cited the contention by Power that “there will seldom be a more serious misconduct allegation against a member of parliament or mayor than to lie repeatedly to the voting public on a national and international platform, in order to win your desired outcome”.

A central plank of the case put forward by Ball’s team was that Johnson, as an MP and previous mayor of London, “lied and misled” the public about the cost of EU membership and used the “platforms and opportunities offered to him by virtue of his public office”.  Coleman’s ruling noted that, as mayor, Johnson signed off several letters in that capacity when expressing his views on Brexit. His then chief of staff, Edward Lister, was also said to have informed the mayor’s staff that it was “official mayoral policy” to support the case for leaving the EU.

“A policy being deemed official, and therefore of the office, would make any campaigning thereafter by the proposed defendant official and pursuant to his office,” the ruling stated.

[Manoli]

Not sure to laugh or to cry.

Well, while you're thinking about it , Slobodan, I'm off to watch the final of the Europa League featuring Arsenal v Chelsea in Baku, Azerbaijan.

Now for many of us the result should be a surprise, but (according to a Leader in The Economist) Azerbaijan is the only country, so far, to have published their election results ... a full day before anyone actually voted!

All good fun.

[Alan Klein]

You keep framing this as a sovereignty issue, but it's not clear to me why this would be a factor in the UK any more than anywhere else. Why would Britons find onerous that which the French and Germans (and others) think is just fine? If the loss of sovereignty is a major issue, as you assert, shouldn't they all be trying to "exit"?

Why would a Brit want a German to decide how they should live? 

[Robert Roaldi]

Why would a Brit want a German to decide how they should live?

You keep repeating this assertion. Others, who live there, have contradicted you. In what actual ways does this happen? The only example I've heard of is the "bend in the banana" issue.

[Rob C]

You keep repeating this assertion. Others, who live there, have contradicted you. In what actual ways does this happen? The only example I've heard of is the "bend in the banana" issue.

Robert, the wires have soldered together. The situation has beeen outlined and then detailed to him and others, but it simply doesn't suit their stance to admit that they get it, so they have no recurse but to persist in this nonsensical cycle of wilful blindness.

It's pretty much the same thing as May trying to push the same old same old after repeatedly being told by her opposites in Europe that the options she wants to have are impossible to grant. There comes a time when people should accept that doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result is madness.

Rob

[Rhossydd]

Why would a Brit want a German to decide how they should live?

They don't. The European Union is about all countries in the union agreeing to legislation that benefits all of the members.

[Rhossydd]

In the UK, do you have to pay an NHS fee when you are retired?

No, nothing at all.

[Alan Klein]

They don't. The European Union is about all countries in the union agreeing to legislation that benefits all of the members.

Apparently the Brits don;t agree, hence Brexit.  Also, recent EU elections favored many nationalists in Italy, France and elsewhere as well as Britain.  I suspect they will change many EU rules and let each Nation decide how they want to live.  To those opposed to this, it may turn out to be the salvation of the EU.  If they get back to a trade compact only, and avoid issues that really should be determined locally by each nation, more EUropeans will support it. 

[elliot_n]

If they get back to a trade compact only, and avoid issues that really should be determined locally by each nation, more EUropeans will support it. 

What issues?

[Alan Klein]

What issues?

Issues that mainly should be left up to democratic legislation in each nation:

2   Constitutional law
2.1   Treaties
2.2   Executive institutions
2.3   Legislature
2.4   Judiciary
2.5   Conflict of laws
3   Administrative law
3.1   Direct effect
3.2   References and remedies
3.3   Judicial review
3.4   Human rights and principles
4   Free movement and trade
4.1   Goods
4.2   Workers
4.3   Citizens
4.4   Establishment and services
4.5   Capital
5   Social and market regulations
5.1   Consumer protection
5.2   Labour rights
5.3   Companies and investment
5.4   Competition law
5.5   Public services
5.6   Obligations and property
6   Public regulation
6.1   Fiscal and monetary policy
6.2   Taxation
6.3   Environmental law
6.4   Natural resource management
6.5   Data and information
6.6   Foreign policy
6.7   Criminal law

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union_law

[Rhossydd]

Apparently the Brits don;t agree, hence Brexit.

No. It's clear you have no real understanding of the issues here in the UK. It's a very complex and nuanced problem.

[Rob C]

Issues that mainly should be left up to democratic legislation in each nation:

2   Constitutional law
2.1   Treaties
2.2   Executive institutions
2.3   Legislature
2.4   Judiciary
2.5   Conflict of laws
3   Administrative law
3.1   Direct effect
3.2   References and remedies
3.3   Judicial review
3.4   Human rights and principles
4   Free movement and trade
4.1   Goods
4.2   Workers
4.3   Citizens
4.4   Establishment and services
4.5   Capital
5   Social and market regulations
5.1   Consumer protection
5.2   Labour rights
5.3   Companies and investment
5.4   Competition law
5.5   Public services
5.6   Obligations and property
6   Public regulation
6.1   Fiscal and monetary policy
6.2   Taxation
6.3   Environmental law
6.4   Natural resource management
6.5   Data and information
6.6   Foreign policy
6.7   Criminal law

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union_law

Aha! Your checklist for chaos, then!

Try harder, Alan; we're talking about a club, here, where mutually agreed rules and norms function for the greater and smoother good of the group. Which they generally have, with the inevitable cases of  winners and losers depending on the areas where each has its strengths or weaknesses. No unit can have it all, and that includes the ones some love to hate: Germany and France.

But what's the point of engaging here when you clearly refuse to understand a goddam thing about it. Any fool can copy out or link to wiki or any other site and draw up any nonsense he likes.

You're out of your depth. Get yourself a hobby you can do.