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Author Topic: Skin tones on Hasselblad H6D  (Read 2829 times)

BAB

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Re: Skin tones on Hasselblad H6D
« Reply #20 on: March 05, 2019, 07:01:38 pm »

maybe from the white gold earrings? hard to balance of that or the whites of the eyes.
anyway the lighting is very soft and a bit flat for my taste but she looks like she has great skin.


on another road take an image of another face or the same face with a color checker included and email the raw (or portion of) the raw image to Hasselblad in NYC they will return an answer immediately as to what might be going on.

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imagetone

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Re: Skin tones on Hasselblad H6D
« Reply #21 on: March 07, 2019, 02:04:31 pm »

maybe from the white gold earrings? hard to balance of that or the whites of the eyes.

White gold earrings (although I can see mostly diamonds/white stones) will reflect everything they see, including skin.

Tony
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MichaelEzra

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Re: Skin tones on Hasselblad H6D
« Reply #22 on: March 07, 2019, 02:41:21 pm »

Michael, just wondering how you knew the sample was not white balanced without a gray card.

Hi Gary, I can simply see that the color is off, the whole image is screaming "magenta!".
Make sure that you start with calibrated monitor, only then you know that what you see on the screen reflects accurately what it is in the digital file.
In original post the skin does not have a color of a skin of a live person.. simply tweaking white balance one can fix that - its only two sliders; start with temperature, then tint, then repeat to fine-fune.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2019, 02:54:43 pm by MichaelEzra »
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FranciscoDisilvestro

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Re: Skin tones on Hasselblad H6D
« Reply #23 on: March 07, 2019, 06:17:12 pm »

A tool like the RGB parade (found in most video editors) helps in determining these kind of issues. Too bad that Photo editors do not include it

eronald

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Re: Skin tones on Hasselblad H6D
« Reply #24 on: March 08, 2019, 04:47:47 pm »

A tool like the RGB parade (found in most video editors) helps in determining these kind of issues. Too bad that Photo editors do not include it

All of this is true, but in fact I've seen this before and what's happening is channel loss because of overexposure, otherwise the Raw converter can fix stuff if you play around with the sliders long enough. RGB parade etc is essential in video because mostly people aren't shooting Raw so the channels are baked in.

Edmund
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BobShaw

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Re: Skin tones on Hasselblad H6D
« Reply #25 on: March 08, 2019, 06:07:16 pm »

Make sure that you start with calibrated monitor, only then you know that what you see on the screen reflects accurately what it is in the digital file.
In original post the skin does not have a color of a skin of a live person.. simply tweaking white balance one can fix that - its only two sliders; start with temperature, then tint, then repeat to fine-fune.
The only way to determine what is in a digital file colour wise is to read the colour values.
The monitor is irrelevant really if the purpose is CORRECT colour.
There are tools in all editors to do that and even the Digital Colour Monitor app on the Mac.
The colour picker will get the white balance correct if there is a neutral target shot at the time.
I would venture to suggest that the tones were correct out of the camera and something has gone wrong later.
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MichaelEzra

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Re: Skin tones on Hasselblad H6D
« Reply #26 on: March 08, 2019, 10:08:42 pm »

The only way to determine what is in a digital file colour wise is to read the colour values.
The monitor is irrelevant really if the purpose is CORRECT colour.
There are tools in all editors to do that and even the Digital Colour Monitor app on the Mac.
The colour picker will get the white balance correct if there is a neutral target shot at the time.
I would venture to suggest that the tones were correct out of the camera and something has gone wrong later.

It is not The Only Way:)

The first way is to look at the screen and see, and that screen is better be calibrated. If one cannot see that human skin looks purple, forget the color picker, better fix that screen first.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2019, 10:45:55 pm by MichaelEzra »
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eronald

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Re: Skin tones on Hasselblad H6D
« Reply #27 on: March 09, 2019, 09:19:42 pm »

It is not The Only Way:)

The first way is to look at the screen and see, and that screen is better be calibrated. If one cannot see that human skin looks purple, forget the color picker, better fix that screen first.

Some reason is finding its way back into this debate.

Interestingly, I looked at an H4D40 this week that was selling for 1700 Euros here in Paris, from a dealer.  I made some test shots. The screen on the back showed people ("caucasians")  totally magenta, however I set the wb. The shop told me the unit was "perfect". My opinion was no buy, because I need to see fairly accurate color while I shoot, to "feel the light". Clearly this is not a point of view shared by many in the MF community or else more attention would be paid to those screens in the back of the cameras.

Edmund

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thyl

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Re: Skin tones on Hasselblad H6D
« Reply #28 on: March 12, 2019, 02:12:21 am »

Greg,

 This has a Kodak-developed CCD sensor with microlenses, about 1 stop faster than the H4D50 which has a similar slightly larger sensor which I believe does not have microlenses. The H4D60 has a Dalsa sensor.

Edmund

And this might be the explanation. The Kodak sensors use different dyes for the Bayer filters. Just like with the dyes used in film emulsion, this imho will have an effect on the colour rendering, though more subtle than with film. It is a question of what the debayer-processing can do with the information obtained from individual pixels. Hasselblad has significant knowledge in the colour rendition, but some colours cannot be correctly guessed when the information is "smeared" by using dyes with too broad a pass-through spectrum.
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bcooter

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Re: Skin tones on Hasselblad H6D
« Reply #29 on: March 12, 2019, 02:47:23 pm »

Greg,

 Yes, I recognise a bit of what I'd call the dreaded "CMOS look", and what everyone on forum tells me doesn't exist .........snip

I wish someone with real and current practical experience would chime in, there are some really experienced studio photographers on this forum.

Edmund

As we all know everything has a lot to do with ďthe look".  Lens, processing suite/pipeline, light quality, ambient colour bounce and more than I know.

We are in the process of producing this project which is interesting as it covers multiple ethnicities in London with the creative brief of respect.   In still and motion imagery, so weíre working with a lot of skin tones.

I always go overkill so I had four Canons, two phase digital backs for my contax(s), A sony a7sII, two MX Reds and a Leica S2.

We shot in the smallest studio with an industrial look Iíve ever worked in and was concerned about ambient colour bounce.

The lighting was continuous with a Large Kino Flow (with grid) as a key, multiple 1 ft. leds for accents and foam board for broad fill.

Even though we photographed every subject in the room with minimum set dressing we also photographed everyone on a black background.

What concerned me about the rental studio was the size and to minimize the ambient colour bounce which to me seems more of an issue with cmos than ccd cameras.

Now if youíd have asked me a few years ago which I prefer ccd or cmos Iíd have said the first for a lot of reasons so for this project I shot with a red MX Epic and for stills my Leica S2.

Today Iím only 80% sure because I have two types of cameras that to me look like ccd which also to me looks more like film, those being the Reds and a Olympus em-5 I (bought on a whim).   Itís interesting that the em-5 to me really isnít a pro camera and a little small, but the file is beautiful.  Iíve never had great luck with sony sensors and the em-5 is a sony sensor.   In fact I liked the em-5 so much I wanted that look in a slightly larger package and bought the em-1 sight unseen because it was larger, I had the glass and I thought it would look the same, but it didnít, it looked nothing like the em-5 and I went online (which I should have done earlier) and found out the em-5 had a sony sensor, the em-1 a Panasonic designed sensor.

Anyway, sorry for such a long post, but as I mentioned there is so much more to the ĎlookĒ than just a camera and sensor.    What surprised me was grading in cinema digital with my REDs.    If I put a file in REDís cine-x grading suite and then put the same file in DiVinci Resolve, the Resolve file is 50% better in all aspects. 

Iíll end this with saying one of the most difficult parts of getting the look you want the world to see is one what screen and machine a client is viewing it on.    90% of the ADís I work with are using an I-mac, usually one or two generations back so I do our base grade (stills or motion) using the stock calibration on a mac glossy screen.    Later Iíll grade the motion on a broadcast monitor, or a calibrated computer screen, but if you work a wide gamut dell screen, it will looked very crushed on a clientís I-mac.

As a friend of mine has always said, colour in the digital world is still the wild west.

Here are two images of the dozenís of actors we just photographed with the S2.   This is just stage one of the project and though the backgrounds are different the lighting is very close to the same, even though there is a difference, part of it is the skin tones of the actors, the other is the second photo that is pulling in ambient bounce from the tight studio.





Even though the lighting is very close in each image, where Edmund says to underexpose, I only do that with ccd sensors to add a film grain look, which I did on the second image.   The first image I upped the power of the key and the fill and shot at the same exposure which smooths  everything out.

This image I've inserted to show how three very different skin tones work with the Leica.



IMO

BC
« Last Edit: March 12, 2019, 03:14:29 pm by bcooter »
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Skin tones on Hasselblad H6D
« Reply #30 on: March 12, 2019, 03:18:06 pm »

Hi BC,

Thanks for sharing knowledge, experiment and images!

Best regards
Erik
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Ghaag

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Re: Skin tones on Hasselblad H6D
« Reply #31 on: March 12, 2019, 03:21:24 pm »

As we all know everything has a lot to do with ďthe look".  Lens, processing suite/pipeline, light quality, ambient colour bounce and more than I know.

We are in the process of producing this project which is interesting as it covers multiple ethnicities in London with the creative brief of respect.   In still and motion imagery, so weíre working with a lot of skin tones.

I always go overkill so I had four Canons, two phase digital backs for my contax(s), A sony a7sII, two MX Reds and a Leica S2.

We shot in the smallest studio with an industrial look Iíve ever worked in and was concerned about ambient colour bounce.

The lighting was continuous with a Large Kino Flow (with grid) as a key, multiple 1 ft. leds for accents and foam board for broad fill.

Even though we photographed every subject in the room with minimum set dressing we also photographed everyone on a black background.

What concerned me about the rental studio was the size and to minimize the ambient colour bounce which to me seems more of an issue with cmos than ccd cameras.

Now if youíd have asked me a few years ago which I prefer ccd or cmos Iíd have said the first for a lot of reasons so for this project I shot with a red MX Epic and for stills my Leica S2.

Today Iím only 80% sure because I have two types of cameras that to me look like ccd which also to me looks more like film, those being the Reds and a Olympus em-5 I (bought on a whim).   Itís interesting that the em-5 to me really isnít a pro camera and a little small, but the file is beautiful.  Iíve never had great luck with sony sensors and the em-5 is a sony sensor.   In fact I liked the em-5 so much I wanted that look in a slightly larger package and bought the em-1 sight unseen because it was larger, I had the glass and I thought it would look the same, but it didnít, it looked nothing like the em-5 and I went online (which I should have done earlier) and found out the em-5 had a sony sensor, the em-1 a Panasonic designed sensor.

Anyway, sorry for such a long post, but as I mentioned there is so much more to the ĎlookĒ than just a camera and sensor.    What surprised me was grading in cinema digital with my REDs.    If I put a file in REDís cine-x grading suite and then put the same file in DiVinci Resolve, the Resolve file is 50% better in all aspects. 

Iíll end this with saying one of the most difficult parts of getting the look you want the world to see is one what screen and machine a client is viewing it on.    90% of the ADís I work with are using an I-mac, usually one or two generations back so I do our base grade (stills or motion) using the stock calibration on a mac glossy screen.    Later Iíll grade the motion on a broadcast monitor, or a calibrated computer screen, but if you work a wide gamut dell screen, it will looked very crushed on a clientís I-mac.

As a friend of mine has always said, colour in the digital world is still the wild west.

Here are two images of the dozenís of actors we just photographed with the S2.   This is just stage one of the project and though the backgrounds are different the lighting is very close to the same, even though there is a difference, part of it is the skin tones of the actors, the other is the second photo that is pulling in ambient bounce from the tight studio.





Even though the lighting is very close in each image, where Edmund says to underexpose, I only do that with ccd sensors to add a film grain look, which I did on the second image.   The first image I upped the power of the key and the fill and shot at the same exposure which smooths  everything out.

This image I've inserted to show how three very different skin tones work with the Leica.



IMO

BC

BC,
Thank you for sharing, I have heard good things about the Leica cameras!
Greg
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eronald

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Re: Skin tones on Hasselblad H6D
« Reply #32 on: March 12, 2019, 04:04:08 pm »


As we all know everything has a lot to do with ďthe look".  Lens, processing suite/pipeline, light quality, ambient colour bounce and more than I know.

--SNIP--
I always go overkill so I had four Canons, two phase digital backs for my contax(s), A sony a7sII, two MX Reds and a Leica S2.


--SNIP--
BC

J,
 Superb pix, thank you for sharing.

 I don't know what will help the OP. Most of us in our time - like you did with the Olympus  E-M1- have weeded out what causes us difficulty.

 EDIT: OP seems to be giving up, the camera is listed on buy/sell.

Edmund
« Last Edit: March 12, 2019, 11:14:14 pm by eronald »
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bcooter

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Re: Skin tones on Hasselblad H6D
« Reply #33 on: March 13, 2019, 10:08:24 am »

BC,
Thank you for sharing, I have heard good things about the Leica cameras!
Greg

Thank you Greg.

No camera brings up as much controversy as mentioning Leica.   First itís the cost of cameras and lenses, 2nd is always a mention that the only people that buy them are hedge fund managers or doctors that put them on a shelf.

I find this kind of strange.   The few photographers I know that use a Leica rarely get rid of them.   They might buy a new one, but usually keep their original. 

Iíve told this story before though we were in the LA Leica store and a few minutes earlier Roger Deakins the Academy award winning DOP was there with his Leica M8.    Iím sure Mr Deakins could get any Leica he wants but he likes his M8.

My S2 was a deal.  The one I bought was from a dealer that visits this site and it must have been a demo because everything was sealed like new.   Not a single mark on it and I bought it for a little more than 1/3 of the original price about two years or so after the camera came out.  Also since I had about every Contax lens made, usually two of each and with Leicaís fully active adapter the Contax lenses work perfectly, including the autofocus.  They also make an adapter for Hasselblad H lenses.  Now my S2 sells for about 1/8th of what it did originally.   For some reason the S types donít hold their value, like an M though S lenses hold their value well, which makes no sense.

My wife and I use to go every week to a small bakery/coffee shop in NYís west village.  For some reason it attracted photographers and I would see someone with a working camera, many times an M series, usually film and so old it had brassing and a lot of wear marks.   In some ways Leicas arenít that easy to work, in other ways theyíre so analog that you can just pick it up and shoot.

So the Leicas I see are really used, film or digital.  I will probably buy a new S with cmos, but only when the S3 comes out because that will make the type 007 drop in price drastically.  In fact a demo 007 sells now for less than half price than when it came out.

Actually there is a growing movement of Leica M users asking Leica to come make a new M with an updated CCD sensor.   Youíd never here that from most brands.

Leica M8



But back to the op original question, no camera I've used has produced the best skin tones as my m8, especially with profoto flash which I'm sure is a rareity to use an M8 in a studio.



IMO

BC


« Last Edit: March 13, 2019, 11:40:07 am by bcooter »
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Steve Hendrix

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Re: Skin tones on Hasselblad H6D
« Reply #34 on: March 13, 2019, 04:22:34 pm »

J,
 Superb pix, thank you for sharing.

 I don't know what will help the OP. Most of us in our time - like you did with the Olympus  E-M1- have weeded out what causes us difficulty.

 EDIT: OP seems to be giving up, the camera is listed on buy/sell.

Edmund


I did reach out to Greg offline and the solution was an upgraded neutral grey card. Sometimes it is simply time to refresh that card. Solved it.


Steve Hendrix/CI
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eronald

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Re: Skin tones on Hasselblad H6D
« Reply #35 on: March 13, 2019, 11:16:17 pm »


I did reach out to Greg offline and the solution was an upgraded neutral grey card. Sometimes it is simply time to refresh that card. Solved it.


Steve Hendrix/CI

I hope Greg buys you a good lunch :)
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Conner999

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Re: Skin tones on Hasselblad H6D
« Reply #36 on: March 14, 2019, 11:31:50 am »

To posters re: the rear LCD on an H4D/H5D showing say too magenta too green an image - there is an easy fix.

It's pretty well known that the older pre-H6 LCDs where not exactly perfect WB.  While purely a 'cosmetic' issue, being picky, it drove me nuts when reviewing shots on the rear LCD when we acquired our first H5D.

The issue is that the Tint aspect of WB cannot be set in H4/5 cameras, only Temp. Tint is only adjusted in the camera when a custom WB is done.  You can play with the on camera WB settings & K temps all day and while the RAW files will obviously be fine and the LCD get warmer/cooler, it will/may still show an 'off' magenta/green Tint.


The solution is too simply bias the jpeg tint used by the camera (for previews) to dial-in the rear LCD:

Get some low-value (e.g. 1/8) Green, Magenta, CTO and CTB gels and cut in the shape of a small grey card (say 4x6").

Then periodically shoot a daylight (or tungsten, etc) custom WB -with just the bare grey card (takes 5 sec on an H series). 

If the LCD shows too magenta, clip 1-2 sheets of 1/8 magenta to the grey card (too add green) and re-shoot the WB to get the rear LCD how you like it/how it shows reality.

You can thus add a mix of gels to the bare card to fine tune the WB of the LCD as you see fit.

Once done, save it under a custom profile and use for as long as desired.

We keep 1-2 daylight/flash and tungsten profiles saved in camera at any time and load the applicable one when shooting. We just keep a small card & its' gels in a Ziploc in our case should we need it.  The layers used in the last daylight WB are kept clipped to the card as a reference while the rest sit free in the bag.

Obviously, since this only adjusts the JPG 'formula' used for screen preview (and obviously any saved jpegs), it does squat to the RAW files and they can be adjusted in Phocus, etc., as usual.

 
« Last Edit: March 14, 2019, 12:36:24 pm by Conner999 »
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eronald

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Re: Skin tones on Hasselblad H6D
« Reply #37 on: March 14, 2019, 05:30:42 pm »

To posters re: the rear LCD on an H4D/H5D showing say too magenta too green an image - there is an easy fix.

It's pretty well known that the older pre-H6 LCDs where not exactly perfect WB.  While purely a 'cosmetic' issue, being picky, it drove me nuts when reviewing shots on the rear LCD when we acquired our first H5D.

The issue is that the Tint aspect of WB cannot be set in H4/5 cameras, only Temp. Tint is only adjusted in the camera when a custom WB is done.  You can play with the on camera WB settings & K temps all day and while the RAW files will obviously be fine and the LCD get warmer/cooler, it will/may still show an 'off' magenta/green Tint.


The solution is too simply bias the jpeg tint used by the camera (for previews) to dial-in the rear LCD:

Get some low-value (e.g. 1/8) Green, Magenta, CTO and CTB gels and cut in the shape of a small grey card (say 4x6").

Then periodically shoot a daylight (or tungsten, etc) custom WB -with just the bare grey card (takes 5 sec on an H series). 

If the LCD shows too magenta, clip 1-2 sheets of 1/8 magenta to the grey card (too add green) and re-shoot the WB to get the rear LCD how you like it/how it shows reality.

You can thus add a mix of gels to the bare card to fine tune the WB of the LCD as you see fit.

Once done, save it under a custom profile and use for as long as desired.

We keep 1-2 daylight/flash and tungsten profiles saved in camera at any time and load the applicable one when shooting. We just keep a small card & its' gels in a Ziploc in our case should we need it.  The layers used in the last daylight WB are kept clipped to the card as a reference while the rest sit free in the bag.

Obviously, since this only adjusts the JPG 'formula' used for screen preview (and obviously any saved jpegs), it does squat to the RAW files and they can be adjusted in Phocus, etc., as usual.

Interesting.

Edmund
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ErikKaffehr

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Re: Skin tones on Hasselblad H6D
« Reply #38 on: March 24, 2019, 11:00:56 am »

I hope Greg buys you a good lunch :)
This place defies all laws of society. We have helpful dealers, soon we'll get true specs in the adverts :)

Edmund
Hi,

It seems to be great advice from Steve. Somewhat confusing though... I must say, if I would get a MFD back for 30k$US, I would try to make a proper comparison shooting the same subject with both cameras at the same time. Using the same color checker as reference. It is just too obvious...

Let just say, I do not understand a thing.

Best regards
Erik
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Ghaag

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Re: Skin tones on Hasselblad H6D
« Reply #39 on: March 24, 2019, 02:59:10 pm »

Thanks to everyone for their feedback!  As a follow up to this, I have modified my workflow to include a ColorChecker Passport in sessions.  I white balance and create a color profile from this and everything is spot on.  For me to get skin tones I am pleased with, using the ColorChecker Passport to create a color profile has been an important addition.
Thanks again,
Greg
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