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Author Topic: Skin tones on Hasselblad H6D  (Read 2948 times)

Ghaag

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Skin tones on Hasselblad H6D
« on: February 06, 2019, 05:11:27 pm »

I have owned the H6D for several months now, and prior the that the H4D and before that the H2d.  One of the things I have loved about the Hasselblad is the beautiful skin tones, but they are just not as good on the H6D as my H4d (which I kept as a backup).  Nothing has changed in my processing other than an updated version of Phocus, I am unsure if it is something I am doing or what is going on.  If anyone can shed light on this I would love to hear from you.
Thanks in advance,
Greg
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eronald

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Re: Skin tones on Hasselblad H6D
« Reply #1 on: February 07, 2019, 02:26:31 am »

I have owned the H6D for several months now, and prior the that the H4D and before that the H2d.  One of the things I have loved about the Hasselblad is the beautiful skin tones, but they are just not as good on the H6D as my H4d (which I kept as a backup).  Nothing has changed in my processing other than an updated version of Phocus, I am unsure if it is something I am doing or what is going on.  If anyone can shed light on this I would love to hear from you.
Thanks in advance,
Greg

Your H4D is CCD, the H6D is CMOS. Apples and oranges, the sensors are  completely different tech, and different makers too.

My belief is there *is* a texture difference between these technologies, but I have been told by many on this forum that this is not so.

I would try to underexpose strongly on the H6D and bring the level back up in post, that might possibly improve things a bit.

BTW, which H4D do you have? The H4D 40 and 50, the 60 is Dalsa, , the H6D series all have Sony.

Edmund
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Ghaag

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Re: Skin tones on Hasselblad H6D
« Reply #2 on: February 07, 2019, 06:34:57 am »

Thank you for the reply Edmond, I have the H4D-40.
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BobShaw

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Re: Skin tones on Hasselblad H6D
« Reply #3 on: February 07, 2019, 04:26:12 pm »

The updated Phocus has two versions selectable by a dropdown box in the right hand side. Read the readme and see if this has anything to do with it. It also has camera controls that work on H5D and later. Just guessing, but check those also.
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Ghaag

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Re: Skin tones on Hasselblad H6D
« Reply #4 on: February 07, 2019, 06:59:16 pm »

The updated Phocus has two versions selectable by a dropdown box in the right hand side. Read the readme and see if this has anything to do with it. It also has camera controls that work on H5D and later. Just guessing, but check those also.

Thanks Bob, I will take a look at that.
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eronald

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Re: Skin tones on Hasselblad H6D
« Reply #5 on: February 07, 2019, 09:18:31 pm »

Thank you for the reply Edmond, I have the H4D-40.

Greg,

 This has a Kodak-developed CCD sensor with microlenses, about 1 stop faster than the H4D50 which has a similar slightly larger sensor which I believe does not have microlenses. The H4D60 has a Dalsa sensor.

Edmund
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Ghaag

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Re: Skin tones on Hasselblad H6D
« Reply #6 on: February 10, 2019, 08:57:55 pm »

Your H4D is CCD, the H6D is CMOS. Apples and oranges, the sensors are  completely different tech, and different makers too.

My belief is there *is* a texture difference between these technologies, but I have been told by many on this forum that this is not so.

I would try to underexpose strongly on the H6D and bring the level back up in post, that might possibly improve things a bit.

BTW, which H4D do you have? The H4D 40 and 50, the 60 is Dalsa, , the H6D series all have Sony.

Edmund

Edmond,
I followed your suggestion and underexposed by about 1 1/4 stop and this seemed to help.  I still need to work on improving and get this figured out, but thanks for the help.
Greg

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eronald

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Re: Skin tones on Hasselblad H6D
« Reply #7 on: February 11, 2019, 12:46:47 am »

Edmond,
I followed your suggestion and underexposed by about 1 1/4 stop and this seemed to help.  I still need to work on improving and get this figured out, but thanks for the help.
Greg

Greg,

 Yes, I recognise a bit of what I'd call the dreaded "CMOS look", and what everyone on forum tells me doesn't exist and I'm imagining as an armchair photographer. You've got it almost under control. I remember having the same issues. I would go down by another stop (just in the Raw file, bring back in post) , take the strobes down there if you can (even if it crushes the blacks in the end) and use a lens that is a bit wider open to get some sparkle effects on the skin. You probably need to really cut the strobe light levels, if your units can do that. Figure out  how to recreate a filmlike highlight rolloff in post. You will also probably have to deal with texture loss in the speculars on the forehead, nose and cheekbones with makeup, and use more diffused or redirected light. Get someone who is a bit smarter than me about studio to help you here (they'll tell you I've got it all wrong, but at least they'll help) - or just use your old setup - if the camera took good pics, and the software rendered nicely, why break something that works?

In my short stints shooting people with strobes a long time ago I had similar issues with some cameras and not others. My feeling is that with skin color and texture issues it's usually easier to just use lights and a camera that works like you like it,  rather than spend days and days fixing the pics from the setup that doesn't. And happily you already own a camera that works.

I wish someone with real and current practical experience would chime in, there are some really experienced studio photographers on this forum.

Edmund
« Last Edit: February 11, 2019, 01:05:19 am by eronald »
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Doug Peterson

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Re: Skin tones on Hasselblad H6D
« Reply #8 on: February 11, 2019, 01:41:47 pm »

I will restrain myself on this, since my company does not sell Hasselblad, which obviously very much biases me...

I would only suggest that you try the same subject with a Phase One IQ3 Trichromatic or IQ4 as processed in Capture One 12 before you conclude that the issue is CCD vs CMOS as Edmund suggests. I strongly suspect you'll be very pleased with what you see.

The final look of an image is the totality of a complex chain of hardware, software, profiling and tuning. The desire to simplify the difference between two cameras or camera systems to a single variable (e.g. CCD vs CMOS) is very very tempting, but almost always wrong.

Not all CMOS cameras are equal just as not all CCD cameras were equal.

Doug Peterson

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Re: Skin tones on Hasselblad H6D
« Reply #9 on: February 11, 2019, 01:44:25 pm »

In my short stints shooting people with strobes a long time ago I had similar issues with some cameras and not others. My feeling is that with skin color and texture issues it's usually easier to just use lights and a camera that works like you like it,  rather than spend days and days fixing the pics from the setup that doesn't. And happily you already own a camera that works.

On this we completely agree :).

MichaelEzra

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Re: Skin tones on Hasselblad H6D
« Reply #10 on: February 11, 2019, 03:50:22 pm »

Skintones can look absolutely fine with any modern camera.
Sample above is not white balanced and red channel is near clipping in the highlights of the face.
Clipping the red channel will have a strong effect on skintones.
I applied some corrections in ACR and attached result for illustration.
Enjoy your H6D;)

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Ghaag

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Re: Skin tones on Hasselblad H6D
« Reply #11 on: February 11, 2019, 04:51:03 pm »

Skintones can look absolutely fine with any modern camera.
Sample above is not white balanced and red channel is near clipping in the highlights of the face.
Clipping the red channel will have a strong effect on skintones.
I applied some corrections in ACR and attached result for illustration.
Enjoy your H6D;)

Michael,
Thank you for working on the image, I will take a look at that.
Thanks again,
Greg
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HywelPhillips

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Re: Skin tones on Hasselblad H6D
« Reply #12 on: February 11, 2019, 06:20:49 pm »

My experience as a studio photographer lends me to concur with the advice to underexpose if you're struggling with the skin tones.

Clipping in the red channel can be impossible to spot in camera (unless you have true raw histograms, which we mostly don't). And that's a sure-fire way to funky skin tones in post.

For my H3DII I found the camera had lots of head-room before clipping started to happen in the skin tones, so much so that I usually rate it at ISO 64 or 80 rather than ISO 100 i.e. overexpose by a third of a stop compared with the flash meter reading. I found the "blinkies" to be quite reliable on that camera - they only appeared as the red channel was starting to clip.

But my A7RII/III are much "hotter" and I often underexpose by as a full stop or more on pale skin especially compared with the flash meter reading. Fortunately these modern sensors are so noise-free and ISO-invariant that bringing things back up in post is pretty non-destructive even on the deep shadows.

My exposure compensation dial lives at -2/3 as a default whenever I'm shooting people aperture priority in available light; for flash I just stop down two thirds of a stop on the lens compared with the flash meter reading for those cameras. And the blinkies seem to be much less reliable in showing when clipping is starting- I don't really trust them on the Sonys. So much safer to dial in a good dose of underexposure.

Interestingly, the video guys reckon 70% (of full luma) is as high as it is safe to go on skin tones. The video encoding mangles the signal compared with RAW, but then again so does making a JPEG in camera and using that as the basis of the histogram and blinkies. And personally I'm nervous even of getting that high- I'd rather keep the skin tones around 65% to give me a bit of headroom for highlights.

The Canons I used to shoot with were pretty close to "right" but I still tended to underexpose by one or thirds of a stop. Expose to the right is all very well, but it is so easy for a model to drift a little closer to one of the softboxes and start blowing the reds in the highlights. A tiny bit can be recoverable but is never ideal. If the greens start to go as well the shot needs to be thrown away as it'll never look acceptable. I'll accept fewer photons and more noise to ensure that I don't get any clipping- especially in the studio where I control how deep the deepest shadows are. 

I don't think it anything "bad" about the newer Hasselblad. It's just that the whole sensor and readout is different, and you've got to find the exposure settings which work for your own lighting with each camera individually.

Cheers, Hywel

« Last Edit: February 11, 2019, 06:33:18 pm by HywelPhillips »
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eronald

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Re: Skin tones on Hasselblad H6D
« Reply #13 on: February 11, 2019, 06:47:17 pm »

On this we completely agree :).

Doug,

 I will choose to hear that the talented photographer agrees with me ;)
 
Edmund
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eronald

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Re: Skin tones on Hasselblad H6D
« Reply #14 on: February 11, 2019, 06:56:50 pm »

Quote from: Doug Peterson link=topic=128947.msg1095were quite good on 031#msg1095031 date=1549910507
---snip---
Not all CMOS cameras are equal just as not all CCD cameras were equal.

Yes - I have owned a bunch of CMOS Canons and some were quite good on skin and some horrid, and some were actually wrong but in a nice way.

A useful trick to fix  asymmetric channels is to put a filter on the camera rather than hoping white balance in post will solve every problem.

Edmund
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Ghaag

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Re: Skin tones on Hasselblad H6D
« Reply #15 on: February 11, 2019, 07:41:25 pm »

My experience as a studio photographer lends me to concur with the advice to underexpose if you're struggling with the skin tones.

Clipping in the red channel can be impossible to spot in camera (unless you have true raw histograms, which we mostly don't). And that's a sure-fire way to funky skin tones in post.

For my H3DII I found the camera had lots of head-room before clipping started to happen in the skin tones, so much so that I usually rate it at ISO 64 or 80 rather than ISO 100 i.e. overexpose by a third of a stop compared with the flash meter reading. I found the "blinkies" to be quite reliable on that camera - they only appeared as the red channel was starting to clip.

But my A7RII/III are much "hotter" and I often underexpose by as a full stop or more on pale skin especially compared with the flash meter reading. Fortunately these modern sensors are so noise-free and ISO-invariant that bringing things back up in post is pretty non-destructive even on the deep shadows.

My exposure compensation dial lives at -2/3 as a default whenever I'm shooting people aperture priority in available light; for flash I just stop down two thirds of a stop on the lens compared with the flash meter reading for those cameras. And the blinkies seem to be much less reliable in showing when clipping is starting- I don't really trust them on the Sonys. So much safer to dial in a good dose of underexposure.

Interestingly, the video guys reckon 70% (of full luma) is as high as it is safe to go on skin tones. The video encoding mangles the signal compared with RAW, but then again so does making a JPEG in camera and using that as the basis of the histogram and blinkies. And personally I'm nervous even of getting that high- I'd rather keep the skin tones around 65% to give me a bit of headroom for highlights.

The Canons I used to shoot with were pretty close to "right" but I still tended to underexpose by one or thirds of a stop. Expose to the right is all very well, but it is so easy for a model to drift a little closer to one of the softboxes and start blowing the reds in the highlights. A tiny bit can be recoverable but is never ideal. If the greens start to go as well the shot needs to be thrown away as it'll never look acceptable. I'll accept fewer photons and more noise to ensure that I don't get any clipping- especially in the studio where I control how deep the deepest shadows are. 

I don't think it anything "bad" about the newer Hasselblad. It's just that the whole sensor and readout is different, and you've got to find the exposure settings which work for your own lighting with each camera individually.

Cheers, Hywel

Thanks for sharing your experience Hywel!
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BAB

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Re: Skin tones on Hasselblad H6D
« Reply #16 on: March 02, 2019, 06:57:23 pm »

Greg
are you shooting tethered? if not you should at least to get all the settings right.
1. when you get the exposure right in camera without changing the EV slider in Phocus...by exposing to the right just before clipping (turn on clipping) highlights/ then bring the curves from the top right quarter just slightly to the right.
2. work with your contrast slider get it right on your screen.
3. you can add some black level with the slider
4. you must establish your gray card or white balance this is critical, move the eyedropper around the sample before you click a spot try something around 170-180 not 128
5. work your saturation slightly less to taste
Now you can shoot away and be assured you will not need almost any adjustments in Phocus.
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Ghaag

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Re: Skin tones on Hasselblad H6D
« Reply #17 on: March 04, 2019, 07:41:12 pm »

Greg
are you shooting tethered? if not you should at least to get all the settings right.
1. when you get the exposure right in camera without changing the EV slider in Phocus...by exposing to the right just before clipping (turn on clipping) highlights/ then bring the curves from the top right quarter just slightly to the right.
2. work with your contrast slider get it right on your screen.
3. you can add some black level with the slider
4. you must establish your gray card or white balance this is critical, move the eyedropper around the sample before you click a spot try something around 170-180 not 128
5. work your saturation slightly less to taste
Now you can shoot away and be assured you will not need almost any adjustments in Phocus.

BAB,
Thank you so much for sharing your insight, I will review my workflow and incorporate the things I might not be doing!
Thanks again,
Greg


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eronald

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Re: Skin tones on Hasselblad H6D
« Reply #18 on: March 05, 2019, 04:18:37 am »

BAB,
Thank you so much for sharing your insight, I will review my workflow and incorporate the things I might not be doing!
Thanks again,
Greg

Greg,

I've played this game. If you are seeing texture issues, only light, makeup and underexposure will bring relief.
Of course all the other advice is solid and will improve image color and tone, but it won't fix texture loss.
I suspect there might also be some IR sensitivity issues involved here.

There is another magical solution to this type of problem - use a camera that doesn't show the problem :)
Edmund

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Garry Sarre

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Re: Skin tones on Hasselblad H6D
« Reply #19 on: March 05, 2019, 06:33:28 pm »

Skintones can look absolutely fine with any modern camera.
Sample above is not white balanced and red channel is near clipping in the highlights of the face.
Clipping the red channel will have a strong effect on skintones.
I applied some corrections in ACR and attached result for illustration.
Enjoy your H6D;)

Michael, just wondering how you knew the sample was not white balanced without a gray card.
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